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glassman
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must see.... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pentagon/
(the correct one now)
i pasted the wrong link ...my bad...
too busy watching....

DQR, would like to hear your take on it....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 26, 2004).]


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Bob Frey
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PBS doing a story now said Rumsfeld is the one who brought it up at the first meetings after 9-11.
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keithsan
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Frey:
PBS doing a story now said Rumsfeld is the one who brought it up at the first meetings after 9-11.


LOL gave up on the cards already ehh...


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glassman
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seems to ME to be fair and balanced..
LOL
echoing my take on the admin...
except, not really run by Bush,

Rumsfeld shows up at the pentagon and basically takes over...
why train all these guys to be generals if you are gonna have a suit show up and tell them how to do their job?

policy becomes MY way or the high way

it puts it all into an easier format to follow than my feeble attmepts...LOL


i guess you have to accept the words of MORE fired personnel.....

course, there are an awful lot of those running around......


[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 27, 2004).]


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glassman
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it is unfortunate that this program is not more widely available....and that it is so big that it won't dwonload easily..

it does a very good job of exposing the way Rumsfeld has treated our military....


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keithsan
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from what i read, the military is happy with rumsfelds job?????? did i miss something?
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glassman
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The only military person of significance to support Bush is Gen. Franks.....

the polling you may be refering to that says 60 to 70% of th emilitary is behind Bush can't be taken at face value....

when you are in, you have no choice...only in a secret ballot can you express your true opinion...andthatsafackjak...LOL


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glassman
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What do the guys in the military networks you're talking to think when Don Rumsfeld comes in as secretary of defense?

We were pleased to see some of the early moves that Mr. Rumsfeld made, but we became disappointed that it was study on top of study, no decisions. One study would come out, and he'd order another study. And many believe that's the reason he probably may not have survived as the secretary of defense except for 9/11 and, of course, the performance of the military in Afghanistan. We were pleased to see what happened in Afghanistan. It was clear the leadership team can adapt and fight a new enemy and do it quickly on the fly with great results. It was in the run-up to Iraq and subsequent problems that we've become disillusioned

Afghanistan went so well cuz the CIA had the war-lors already on the pay-roll....

unfortunately...surrrender over there meant that they walked in one door got a blessing and walked out the other door.....
the same war-lords still run things...and they will control the vote tighter than our corps do....


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glassman
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You witnessed at this moment what it must be like for somebody with a personality of Gen. Shinseki to be in the gunsights of somebody with a personality of Donald Rumsfeld.

It's painful. I mean, here's the chief of staff of the Army, a man who's given 38 years of service to his country, who has tremendous respect and support from the Army itself and from the Congress, and yet Secretary Rumsfeld announces his replacement 14 or 15 months before he's due to rotate out.


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glassman
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What was the role of [former Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric] Shinseki and [former Army Secretary Thomas E.] White, if any, in the creation of the war plans?

By Shinseki and White, we essentially mean the institutional Army, and as the war plans developed, the institutional Army is more important simply in opposition to Rumsfeld and where he's going, both in terms of war-fighting concept of operation and even more broadly in terms of whether it was a good idea. The Army was pretty comfortable with this notion of containing Iraq, as Gen. Zinni, [who] was a Marine and had been Franks' predecessor at Central Command, also was. Containment was working, they thought

the important wording here is CONTAINMENT--

we didn't do that..Rumsfeld either had bad intel or didn't care...i dunno how he managed to cross off so many troops for the invasion...

there's a big differens between invading and holding.... ask the chinese..they know all about avbsorbing an invasion and spanking it..
Rumsfeld wanted this war so bad he rushed into it cuz he had 911 on HIS side...


we have been duped.....

the butcher's bill is just started here....


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keithsan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
The only military person of significance to support Bush is Gen. Franks.....

the polling you may be refering to that says 60 to 70% of th emilitary is behind Bush can't be taken at face value....

when you are in, you have no choice...only in a secret ballot can you express your true opinion...andthatsafackjak...LOL



...I understand what your talking about, its called cognitive dissonance. but, i've seen polls in the past where the military was unhappy with leadership. Under other presidents etc....

Therefore its my conclusion that cognitive dissonance is not in play here. To be the reason it would basically always be that the military supports their leader and thats just not the case.


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glassman
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the military is afraid to speak up at all Keith..as have been a lot of people...

these guys are crusaders...
if they win again i will shutup..
but i am not willing to sit around and listen to all the propaganda quietly...
Bush is the one who was on the watch on 911..and i don't accept any of his excuses. especially since all of my DD says he was partying instead of working.....and had plenty of warning--ths crap about fighting the war on their turf?? gonna make MORE terror not less.....
war begets war...


Bush's whole campaign has been about wrapping the flag around HIS own shoulders and calling Kerry a traitor...
which Bush himself don't even have the GUTS to do, he has henchmen do it...

he has henchmen doing all kinds of nasty stuff while he smiles to people like Kate and prays...
it makes me sick...


Kerry stands UP and says what's on his mind...
and all this crap about flip-flopping?... Kerry has been pretty consantly a liberal, which
I DO NOT LIKE,
but at least he's open about it..
Bush won't even admit that he will appoint judges with the goal of reversing Roe-v-Wade...i don't think i've ever seen so much hypocrisy

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 30, 2004).]


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timberman
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Are you trying to say that the swiftvets are of Bush while moveon.org and moore, not to mention CBS and the like, are not of Kerry? "All this crap about flip-flopping" Gee-wiz glass did you just get off the boat or what? Your sinking into the liberal talking points club deeper every day.
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glassman
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no Timber i'm not sinking into anything...

especially not into accepting being LIED to all day long....

i don't see facts coming out on Bush's side...
they don't exist, all i do is argue with people who guote SLOGANS, its disturbing....

i can't help it if moore is a slob who is agianst bush too..or CBS forged documents..
everybody KNOWS Bush's service record was n't that good...
and the swifites are jon o'neal..he was a Nixon pawn....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 30, 2004).]


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Kate
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Please don't make fun of my praying, or of the President praying, Glass! It isn't a joke, and you know it! I'm sorry you don't believe the President prays for, or smiles at people other than people like ME, but as I've said, the woman I've been working with at Republican Headquarters, is friends with him and Laura; she's helped on their first campaign, and this one also, and she says that he is the genuine article! That he IS a Christian, and he cares about, and PRAYS, for everyone that needs it, and for everything he does, and that he smiles all of the time! That is who HE is! He isn't trying to use the name, "Christian" to get things done, like Kerry did last week!
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keithsan
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Glass, your contention is that big scary bush and rumsfeld scare the soldiers into answering polls in a certain way?

I must tell you that is silly.


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glassman
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i'm sorry to offend you personnaly Kate, but Cheney and Rumsfeld don't fit into the good Christian picture too well do they?

and Evangelism IS being used...
demcratic evangelism, and Christian evangelism....
we are seeing a crusade here....
i'm not making this up....
the churches are sending missionaries in right behind the troops, and you know it if you go to church...


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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by keithsan:
Glass, your contention is that big scary bush and rumsfeld scare the soldiers into answering polls in a certain way?

I must tell you that is silly.


read the web-site i gave you the link to..the sate dept is in the same boat...


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timberman
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Well glass you,ve bought into the dems talking points. Beware though, one thing that I have noticed is that they (the dems) do the lying and acuse the other side of doing it.
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keithsan
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Where does it state they intimidate soliders into answering a certain way for polls? This is a big charge, are you reading to much into a PBS (bias) article???

Have you read Rumsfelds poems?I think there are one or 2 on this link
http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042/


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Kate
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What is your definition of a "Christian" Glass? Just because someone does something you disagree with, doesn't mean they are wrong! If you do something yourself, that someone disagrees with, would you want them to look at you, and say that you aren't living up to your "Christian" beliefs? We are NEVER, all going to totally agree with another human being, no matter who they are! That is because we aren't Jesus, only trying to be like him! We have different beliefs, and opinions! That is why, if we are a Christian, we have to choose the person that tries to do the best that he can, even though he might or might not make a mistake like the rest of us! Just because YOU believe the President has made mistakes, and hasn't admitted them, that doesn't mean that he has! At least half of the nation, believes that he hasn't made any mistakes, and he has nothing to apologize for! I guess it is all in how we extensively read, and what we get out of it!
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keithsan
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RUMSFELDS WAR:

Here are his fighting techniques!
http://poe-news.com/features.php?feat=31845


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glassman
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i am talking about a CULTURE that has been created in the military by Rumsfeld, not about indivual soldiers being coerced, and i think you know the difference...


the coersion is ALWAYS there, i have been in, I KNOW.....
and believe me there is HELL to pay if you speak out.....


and i think if you re-read my statements you will see that i never said soldiers were being coerced...
i said you can't trust the values of the polls

i personally know a lot of poeple in the culture and that is what i am basing my statements on....


it will be interesting to see how the absentee ballots come in....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 30, 2004).]


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timberman
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http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/leigh200410301617.asp
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glassman
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it won't load.....
i have a propaganda blocker...LOL

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Kate
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It loads on mine!
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glassman
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it loaded now...LOL

hmmmm is this supposed to be a surprise after the way Bush go into the White House last time?

like i said, i laughed about the recount, but i wasn't laughing when i found out how many DEMS didn't get to vote at all becuase the Fla GOP secretary of state PURGED the registers.....

i know, the dems load districts too, but this is the first time(as far as i know) it's ever left us with a war prez...

the dems are not my first pick, but Bush is my last pick...LOL

and YES i was a PRO-BUSH big-mouth in SO CAL last election, and quite frankly youz guyz are tame compared to the vicious attacks i took on there..don't call the liberals wimps--they aren't.....LOL

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 31, 2004).]


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keithsan
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are you laughing now cuz dems are driving old people to the voting booths?

or does it only work the other way for you...


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glassman
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driving old people to the polls? how kind of them, unless they are going into the booth..then it's illegal, right?

in 1968, we (my parents)did that to help Nixon beat Humphrey....

to be honest, i am pretty discouraged about the way the campaigning has gone so far and i don't think anything's gonna be resolved before next weekend.....the high numbers of voters already turning out should be to the dems benefit, but i don't know what to believe anymore....we'll see how many votes/voters get thrown out.....
we live in a red state, and we registered this year, and one out of two of our registrations is messed up, and we were very careful to get it right and early.
interestingly, women tended to vote for Gore by 60-40...guess what, mine wasn't the registration that was messed up, it was my wife's, and she has a definitely female name. paranoid? maybe.....we'll get to the bottom of this sooner or later....


the stuff described in this article?
why don't i see this stuff on the TV?
FOX would have film if the public behaviour was real.....
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/leigh200410301617.asp

some of it is happening on both sides....but i don't believe half of what they are alledging, and that is because i'm becoming more and more suspicious of the far right.

my experince in life is that the Moral Majority is NEITHER

when Clinton won his first time,(i voted against him both times) i was living in southeast VA, and i heard many supposedly "good Christians" say things like he should be shot....

the hate is the everywhere..

whoever wins inherits a mess....
and gets no respect from the other side...
there are a lot of decent GOP Senator's or i would be even more concerned....Texas managed to re-district and they are expected gain five or six republican seats in the House from Texas alone....

if Bush wins, will he continue to act like he won by landslide? he has said that he will "do the right thing no matter what's popular" and he has so far...this attitude is good in a JUDGE, but the president is expected to respond to the will of the people, not manipulate their will to promote his own agenda...

the Senate and the judiciary BARELY keep him in check....

he seems to have forgotten we live in a democratic republic....

Kerry, i think he would do just fine on terror and Iraq, maybe the lower level troops will be upset about it, but the pentagon WON'T be upset from what i can tell...
i don't really see what Kerry can do to mess up the domestic situation any worse..he refuses to address the immigration issue just like Bush....jobs are not made by the prez...they are made by people like us investing...the markets still don't have trust built back up from Enron ,Kmart,MCI etc. yet


i believe that whoever wins will have to raise all of our taxes within 4 years; unless Iraq can be settled down QUICKLY and begin producing oil...
Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz's original war-plans included little to no re-building cash from US, oil money was supposed to fund everything...
and we can't afford to let it slip into civil war....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 31, 2004).]


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SCinFL
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I have to agree with Glass here, on the ..let's say...expectation of voting republican if you are military. Being an ex military wife, the consensus was always that military voted republican, and that the wives usually followed the husbands.
The military is known to stress the idea to enlisted and officers that republican leadership builds and pays for a stronger military, therefore they are voting their paycheck in a way...or at least that's the impression given to them.

Sarah


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