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Author Topic: IN DEFENSE OF AMERICA
TickerToo
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THIS post also found on the Thread regarding "markets celebrate beheadings".
One last time allstocks. Thank-you.

South Korea: Our hearts ache for your loss, and the family’s loss of Kim Sun-il. We respect this man and his family for their sacrifice.

So I take this moment to extend to you our deepest sympathies. We do know what you feel. Our pain is as great as yours. Kim Sun-il was a human being, a man with a mother and father, grandparents, siblings, loved ones and friends. We send them all our love and prayers.

South Korea: While Kim Sin-il was truly an innocent working for a South Korean Trading Company in Iraq, we can not disregard in our anger & tears the great sacrifice he gave. In his sacrifice he shows the world once again, as many innocent overseas American workers have shown through their beheadings, the vicious nature of the terrorist mind.

BUT here is where my anger begins... there was also news here in America regarding South Koreans marching and chanting for the American Soldiers to leave South Korea. The American Soldiers your government officials asked America to sacrifice in order to protect your border with North Korea. We Americans would love to have our children, husbands & wives home with us. We sent them to you, to protect you and your families.

South Korea: Be careful what your people ask for. Our men & women GAVE their lives FOR YOU so that you may continue farming, living & growing in peace. YOUR SOUTH KOREAN OFFICIALS BEGGED AMERICA FOR HELP years ago. AMERICANS GAVE THEIR LIVES FOR YOUR FREEDOM. YOU were viciously killed & tortured by COMMUNIST NORTH KOREANS many years ago in NORTH KOREA'S attempt to TAKE CONTROL OF YOU.

IF WE LEAVE SOUTH KOREA, no one, no country in this World will step-up to help you when North Korea marches in a 2nd time. NOR WOULD THEY DO SO AND LEAVE YOUR COUNTRY TO YOU. Just as we will leave Iraq to it’s citizens, with educated Iraqi’s leading the way and teaching it’s people about freedom.

THESE Terrorists MUST BE FLUSHED-OUT. AND THE WORLD, not just Americans anymore, BUT THE WORLD MUST LEARN TO SACRIFICE for freedom from barbaric people. TERRORISTS have viciously attacked & terrorized the European, ASIAN & African continents for decades. THE TERRORISTS ARE BEING FLUSHED OUT NOW. The World must learn to fight back and sacrifices MUST BE MADE BY ALL.

Terrorists are indeed barbaric. Their methods are those of the Huns, The Vikings, The Mongollians from centuries ago. AND As one man said so perfectly today on the FOX News Channel in effect: Centuries ago barbarians instilled fear into the populace they chose to CONTROL by cutting off heads, mounting them on poles and placing those severed heads on display in the Village Town Square for the villagers to see what would happen if the villagers even attempted freedom from their barbaric tyranny. AND SO TODAY, AND FOR THE PAST 25 YEARS, Terrorists display their barbarism in many ways. Now we see, rather than the local village Town Square of centuries ago, Terrorists manipulate the naive media and use TV to act as the WORLDS Town Square in proudly displaying the severed heads of innocent people… in order to mold & control innocents to their Terrorist demands.

My husband, and I by his side, awaited deaths knock on our door for 24 years... everytime he was called to Turkey & South Korea. MY HUSBAND went to Kuwait because that government begged us to please help. NO ONE ELSE WOULD UNTIL WE STEPPED UP TO THE TASK!!! WE as Americans ALLOWED our government to SACRIFICE OUR men & women for the people of Kuwait.

WE NOW ALLOW OUR Government, with some reservation, TO FREE Iraq of disqusting & violent Tyranny. To break the link between the crazed Dictator Saddam Hussein, with even more insane, vicious & spoiled sons who would some day have been the leaders of Iraq.. to break the link between Saddam & terrorists. AND YES, despite what America’s unbelievably naive & one-sided liberal media says, even the 911 commission mentions the absolute link between Al Queda & Sadddam. NOT WITH regard to 911... but definately in matters of financial support & in Al Queda's own attempt to go to Saddam and ask for weapons of mass destruction. This was CONFIRMED by Brittish Intelligence, and through Russian Intelligence several months after 911. This Al Queda & Saddam Hussein link was CONFIRMED AGAIN by Russian President Vladimir Putin in a WORLD WIDE statement a few days ago saying that he, himself, told President Bush of the connection between Al Queda & Saddam AND gave the documented intelligence to America.

WE ALLOW OUR GOVERNMENT, AT THE REQUEST OF MID-EAST MUSLIM OFFICIALS, To send American boys & girls, husbands & wives, to protect Turkey, Saudi, Kuwait, Yemen, Syria & Palestine from the constant-constant threat of Saddam & his two sons' attempts to takeover & control those countries. IN ADDITION to OUR AMERICAN SOLDIERS PROTECTING those same countries FROM THOSE MUSLIM OFFICIALS FEAR OF IRAN.

Forgive my digression in speaking of Muslims here. BUT their officials are in fear of Iran & were in fear of Saddam. Muslims are a peaceful people, and because not all have the full freedoms to achieve their dreams (like those in Iraq), they can not comprehend the ability they have within themselves to defy someone. So they follow fear as that is all they have ever known, all they comprehend. That was the whole goal of Saddam and any leader who suppress the education of their people. To keep them in fear.

For heavens sake, the Church of England kept education from Christians for centuries for the same purpose. To keep Christians in fear so that the CHURCH could control & rule. That is the biggest reason for America’s constitutional statement regarding the separation of Church and Sate. It has nothing to do with religeon & prayer, but everything to do with one entities control of a people.

AND THAT IS WHY AMERICAN boys & girls, men & women are sent to fight for freedom across the world. Because the officials of those countries, AFGHANISTAN in the 80s for example, have PLEADED with America to come to their aid. WHY? Because their people DID NOT HAVE & STILL DON’T HAVE THE FREEDOMS that Americans have. THEY therefore do not understand how to motivate themselves, how to rise-up and fight for something they believe in because they ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES & THEIR OWN POTENTIAL WITHIN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. How can they possibly believe in their ability to fight the enemy if they do not believe and have confidence in themselves?

IT IS ONLY IN KNOWING & HAVING FREEDOM that you have the opportunity, IF YOU CHOOSE, to be educated, the opportunity to believe in yourself and therefore improve your life for your yourself & your family. To place yourself where YOU WANT TO BE, not where your government or dictator TELLS you to be.

THAT IS WHAT FREEDOM & AMERICA IS ALL ABOUT. IT IS NOT ABOUT MONEY & GREED for moneys sake. Not for most Americans. IT'S ABOUT MAKING A BETTER LIFE, AND A BETTER DEATH, FOR YOURSELF & YOUR FAMILY.

THAT FREEDOM allows us to express soooo many emotions. COMPASSION being our strongest emotion as a group of people. AND SO WE ALLOW OUR CHILDREN, HUSBANDS & WIVES to FIGHT & DIE FOR YOUR FREEDOMS AT THE REQUEST OF YOUR OFFICIALS.

AS WE DID in World War I for Russia, France & Britain.

LIKE WE DID AGAIN FOR FRANCE, and yes, even the majority of the German people who hated & feared Hitler for his threats to them during World War II.

AND AS WE CONTINUE to do in South Korea with our MEN & WOMEN protecting YOUR BORDER to North Korea.

IT IS THE COMPASSION OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE that allows us, to let OUR GOVERNMENT hand to South Korea and hundreds of other countries across the world TRILLIONS of OUR AMERICAN MONEY FOR OTHER COUNTRIES COMFORT & SAFETY. I WORKED for that money, sometimes 14 & 16 hour days for food, shelter & comfort. I have worked since I was 14 years old. Contributing to the tax base. 75% OF AMERICANS WORK THEIR TAILS OFF and contribute greatly to the tax base which is USED BY OUR GOVERNMENT TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES MORE COMFORTABLE & HAPPY. TO FEED THEM, GIVE THEM MEDICAL SUPPLIES, HELP THEM TO TRAIN THEIR OWN ARMIES. THAT IS MY MONEY & EVERY AMERICAN's HARD EARNED MONEY. Helping you and your country.

My American life, my comfort, my dieing days, and my ability to care for my parents are compromised so that my money can aid you today. Do not ever call me or my fellow Americans selfish. Forgive them Lord for they have absolutely no idea what they do. And their governments are too embarrassed at the extent to which Americans give to ever explain that to their people.

DUE to the world's current views of America & it's people. SOMEDAY SOON, we will not allow our government to give so freely. BECAUSE WE DECIDE, WE MAKE THE VOTE, WE ELECT OUR OFFICIALS.

CONTINUE in your selfish VERBAL & PHYSICAL ATTACKS on America & it's people and WE WILL VOTE TO CLOSE OUR DOORS, CLOSE OUR BORDERS, AND CLOSE OUR HEARTS FOREVER.


Posts: 206 | From: Anthem | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TickerToo
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AND DON'T TELL ME IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL.

AMERICAN LIVES ARE NOT SACRIFICED FOR OIL. Not today and never again. AMERICA HAS A SURPRISE FOR YOU. AMERICA has worked on alternative fuel sources for over 20 years. WHY? Because the atmosphere, the oceans and plants are in grave peril due to fossil fuel emmissions. AND BECAUSE AMERICA WANTS AMERICA OUT OF THE MID-EAST.

WE ARE ACHEIVING SUCCESS right now with alternative fuel sources. It is in fact, quite the latest & hippest thing for an American to own an alternative fuels or hybrid vehicle. AMERICANS LOVE TO BE COOL & HIP, Americans love to follow trends.

In another 10-15 years America won't need foreign oil. What little oil we need will come from American, Canadian, South American & Russian resources. PERIOD.

Terrorists, HAD THEY the comprehension & desire to live a full life, would stop spending their life in the contemplation & planning of their own people's death in order to drive American’s out of the Mid-east.

IF TERRORISTS would just stop for a few minutes, they would see that America is working quietly to remove it's need of the Mid-East. Americans shall in fact be the ones to leave that part of the world, regardless of what the terrorists do.

SO IF these Terrorists had any smarts at all, they would instead use all that brain power & energy to use their many resourses in educating & truly freeing the Muslim people so that Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and other Oil-rich countries can diversify their economies. THESE COUNTRIES MUST DO this in order to offset an economic crash in the next 10-20 years when the WORLD drastically lowers the need for Mid-East oil.

WHERE ARE THE TRUE MUSLIMS IN THIS WORLD? WHY are you allowing Terrorists to kidnap your religion... your childen, your future? Believe in yourselves & your God and tell the Terrorists to go away! Take action, move as a group of millions against those few barbaric terrorists who twist your religeon into evil deeds!! We Americans with our western ways will leave you be. We will have mutual trade alliances.
YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE FREE TO LIVE. TO LIVE!!

To Live is the rarest thing in this World… do you really choose to simply exist?


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VNGNTN1
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HEAR HEAR
VAN

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Zeker
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Again, a beautiful post. What I wish the world would try to understand, is that we as Americans fought for our freedoms- that we maintain that freedom vigilantly however inconvenient and uncomfortable such may be at times- that we understand and appreciate what freedom is- and that we honor and nourish the concept of freedom for all. I deeply feel that portions of the world are envious of the fact that we are so free: yet what is worthy of envy also comes with a price that many around the world are simply unwilling to pay. And so we do their dirty work for them- we remove the noose of tyranny from around their necks- And for that we are hated even more. Why? Because they haven't got the guts to stand up to the tyrants whom rule over them. Yet they are all too familiar with how to manipulate those whom have given them that very right to dissent. America is an easy target for the cowardly voices of the world to lash out against- we uphold the very concept that they be allowed to do so, unlike those whom they claim to be supporting under free will.
I would like to add something to what George W. Bush has already said, because it is so obvious, yet so unrecognized by much of the world. George W. Bush stated "You are either for us, or you are against us": I would add that you are either for freedom and liberty, or you are a slave to the chaos of tyrants whom we are attempting to eliminate in order to show you the path of liberty. Some people are just too ignorant- too insecure- and/or too lazy- to understand that the false security that comes with bondage to a tyrannous government is not worth the price which they will continue to pay for their cowardice. Some people are happier as slaves.

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VNGNTN1
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ZEKER
Only 9 more and we'll have a squad.
VAN

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WWJD-thru-me
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TickerToo-Great post again. I would add that we have a lot of people in politics today who have their own agenda. Their lust for power steps on the truth and they could care less about how America is viewed by the world if the negative press they generate can make their party or candidate look better. They provide our enemies with fuel for the fire directed at us, making accusations against our President and military in hopes it will make them look better. Our military did make mistakes but there is no other military in the world who would so carefully try to avoid injuring the innocent even to the point of their own hurt.
God Bless them and keep them. God please Bless America. -Debi

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Dardadog
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Thanks TickerToo. Excellent Voice.

------------------
Due Da Due......But Be Quick About It!!!!!


DaDog


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futuresobjective
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quote:
Originally posted by WWJD-thru-me:
TickerToo-Great post again. I would add that we have a lot of people in politics today who have their own agenda. Their lust for power steps on the truth and they could care less about how America is viewed by the world if the negative press they generate can make their party or candidate look better. They provide our enemies with fuel for the fire directed at us, making accusations against our President and military in hopes it will make them look better. Our military did make mistakes but there is no other military in the world who would so carefully try to avoid injuring the innocent even to the point of their own hurt.
God Bless them and keep them. God please Bless America. -Debi

**************
Amen to that!!!
The increasing Anti-American attitude is uncalled for, unwanted, and most of all it is completely unfounded! France, HA! |>u$$ie$ (pardon my French)How can you be anti-American , when we saved them twice from their own errors. It amazes me that when we get attacked they are with us. When we try to bring an end to one abusive dictator (who I am sure would have most willingly supported terrorists) they fold. I am amazed at the arrogance of some of these countries. Just simply amazed. Don't they realize that you can't define your own country by stating you are not American? That says a lot about them. We are France the not American Country. ROFLMAO!!!! I mean c'mon... really... The sooner France comes to its senses the better. If they don't it does not matter, they are nothing but a small itch. Anti-American my arse, anti-France. What kind of world power are they? oh that’s right they are not... The same goes for Germany.. But this is just my opinion, just remember I am right.

Now that I have ranted about nothing, I have only two things to say... God Bless America and God bless our troops who are so willing to sacrifice their lives for the improvement of a country not their own!

P.S. one more thing... God Bless the stock market (Especially my account and investments) lol


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HasmirFenring
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"What kind of world power are they? oh that’s right they are not... The same goes for Germany.. But this is just my opinion, just remember I am right."


Yes we are all very impressed at how tough America is. Is that really what you are hanging your hat on? Who's Dad is tougher? Yeesh. I am certainly not pro-US policy these days, but my friends who are just shake their heads and curse when they get lumped into a category with posts like these. International politics doesn't work like a highschool classroom. Such a simplified view of the world reeks of ignorance and righteousness (not a good combination).


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crazycanuck
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Wow. I don't know where to start with this one. I'm Canadian, and although I agree with a lot of what you said, a lot of it was also a little misinformed and incorrect.

OK, you seem to have the idea that America goes around freeing countries out of the goodwill of its citizens to support such operations? Give me a break.

What about Chile? Where America overthrew a democratically elected government and installed a military dictatorship that murdered thousands of people. They don't movies about that one.

Why don't they? The real truth behind America's actions since WW2 to 1990 was that they had more to do with fighting communism and expanded captialism then "spreading freedom". Now, in the course of fighting communism, America has spread an awful lot of freedom (along with canada and european NATO allies, who without your assistance such things would not have been possible).

If fighting communism and spreading capitalism meant putting in place or supporting dictators, America did it. The intention was never to liberate people. The intention was to open up new markets for American corporations to exploit. Sometimes this meant liberating a people (if the democratic sentiment there was pro-capitlaism and pro-free market) and sometimes this meant installing dictators that would kill thousands of people (if the democratic movements were to socialist for american tastes). America DID spread freedom, but the problem is that they exclusively spread THEIR INTERPRETATION of freedom for better or worse.

I agree with you on the south korean issue. The people in that region hated the USSR and America in equal spades during the cold war, believe me. They blame them for tearing their nation (the people, not the land) apart during the war. Their is no USSR to blame, and north koreans don't have the right to blame. So south koreans still don't appreaciate being political pawns to a super power, even if on a lot of levels its for their own good. The only real solution in the immeadiate present is for south korea to raise their own military strength, but this is hardly feasible for a variety of political and cultural reasons. America really is doing the dirty work for the world in south korea and not getting respect for it.

But as for Iraq and Afaganistan... not so much. At least if you understand history as much as you do CNN and Fox NEWS.

"MY HUSBAND went to Kuwait because that government begged us to please help."

Begged you for help? Absolutely. But why did they beg you to help? Because America, while fighting the cold war with the communists, GAVE SADDAM THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Donald Rumsfeld himself oversaw the buildup of Saddam Hussien. Make absolutely no mistake about it... Saddam Hussien is a monster, but it is with no historical doubt that America gave him the power to do what hes done. America gave him the WMDs. America helped TRAIN the republican guard that attacked kuwait years later. America let Saddam get away with his military aggression in the 80s against Iran because they were on America's side during the cold war.

"TO FREE Iraq of disqusting & violent Tyranny"

A tryanny that was created by America in fighting a greater threat that was communism. I applaud America for cleaning up their mess and setting things right again. But painting the picture that middle eastern countries come to you begging for freedom is very incorrect, and completely ignorant of the history in the region.


"AS WE DID in World War I for Russia, France & Britain.

LIKE WE DID AGAIN FOR FRANCE, and yes, even the majority of the German people who hated & feared Hitler for his threats to them during World War II."

America got involved in WW2 only after Pearl harbour. If they got in it to liberate france, then they were a few years too late. America fought WW2 when it became a matter of self-preservation. America never saved Russia either. America was terrified of Russia, thats why they dropped the bomb on nagasaki and hiroshima. As far as "saving europe" goes, had America not done it, Russia would have done it (without question), and America (wisely) didn't want communists bringing their intrepretation of freedom. America let europe suffer for years before getting involved in the war, historians will tell you that it was England and Russia that really turn the tide of the war, by refusing to back down.

Want to know the real kicker? America's current enemy, Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda thugs, are also products of the cold war. In the 80s when the communists were coming into afganistan, already a war torn country of decades of fighting, American CIA agents were training resistance fighters to beat back the communists. The techniques involved all sorts of guerilla tactics, car bombings, explosives, assisinations, etc. After nearly destroying in years of fighting, Afganistan had become Russia's Vietname. America, having done its job and costed the communists dearly, left Afganistan in a sorry war torn wreck. Enter Osama Bin Laden. A rich incredibly intelligent religous zealot + tens of thousands of poor, starving, drug addicted muslisms who hate America = Al Qeada.

Just as in Iraq, I think its great that America is cleaning up their mistakes with Afganistan (with the help of europe and other allies).

As far as the alternative fuel sources go. What?! America, the bastian of alternative fuel methods? I'm afraid not. Bush spent 200 billion (and counting!) fighting in Iraq alone, and invested a mere $200 million in alternative fuel sources research.

Believe me, I actually do love America. I went to New York after 9/11 with my girlfriend, we saw the WTC site and were both disgusted that their could be that much hatered in the world. But you have to look at THE ENTIRE situation, not just your own perspective and your own media, to get a true grasp of what has and what is happening in the world. My ancestors died with yours in WW2 (4 of them), my cousin is American and fought in Iraq for the first Bush. I am very aware in the importance of military strength to preserve freedom. But the intentions of a nation does not always reflect her actions.

If you are a little more open with your views, pay attention to the media a little less and pay attention to history a little more, you find that things are a lot more grey than they are black and white.

Sorry if this pisses you off, that was not my intention, but after reading your rant, I had to respond.

- Kevin


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keithsan
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kevin,

i do not have time to refute your supposed facts.

what has canda done wrong? nothing....

what has canada done right? nothing...

choosing to complain about the actions of others is worthless. Lets discuss your actions...

some of your complaints are absolutely correct. some are assinine. Sorry, Bin Laden was training terrorist in Afghanistan and after Sept, 11, you do not think we have a right to go in....

now, hopefully we will go in when the jerk says im going to train....

on Iraq, yes in the past we supported them, hell after WW1 we supported germany... who was canada supporting.... no one knows.

Back to the point, We supported Iraq against Iran who had kept hostages for a good half a year, hated and threatened american people (westerners actually) USA is usually the symbol. I'd support them again in that situation.....

boring...

If i talked about Canada, you would be offended, and I do not want to offend anyone. I was happy with the way the elections in Canada started this year. Finally some competition.

lets get a list of humanitarian aid given by the 2 countries, then lets see who attempted to make a difference, and what the outcomes were. I know most of Eastern Europe is damn happy we won the cold war. I spend my summertime in western europe. and they hate the Iraq war, too close to them. but, especially in italy, they say "we hate this war, but love americans, thank you"

thats kind of nice, but, i did nothing.

where would you be if we lost....


keith

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited August 05, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited August 05, 2004).]


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crazycanuck
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hahahaha, thats classic, no time to look at the facts and a complete ignorance of other countries history and cultures - you should run for president!

Lets break it down piece by piece again...

"what has canda done wrong? nothing...."

- plenty of things actually. we have supported most of the wrong things America has done both politically and financially. and make no mistake, that support was much appreaciated by your leaders. we jailed the japanese in WW2 just as you did. we also set the white house on fire in 1812 (thats why its painted white actually) when you attempted to take us over and were defeated.


"what has canada done right? nothing..."

- Canada lost more in lives and money per capita than ANY other country in WW2. Canadain supply convoys braved the U-Boat filled atlantic to supply England for two years with food and weapons, without these supplies you might be speaking german right now. Our social programs are some of the best in the world, our crime rate is a fraction of most other industrialized nations, I could go on...

"Sorry, Bin Laden was training terrorist in Afghanistan and after Sept, 11, you do not think we have a right to go in...."

HUH?!?!?!?!? Listen to what I said a little more carefully...

"Just as in Iraq, I think its great that America is cleaning up their mistakes with Afganistan (with the help of europe and other allies)."

I completely support that war, just not the way its being portrayed.

"lets get a list of humanitarian aid given by the 2 countries, then lets see who attempted to make a difference, and what the outcomes were"

HAHHAHAAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA. You can't be serious?!?! Canada along with the rest of the world has been pleading with the US to give more to fighting Aids in Africa and the developing world. Nothing in return. The US gives more than Canada, but only because their is 10x the population. Per capita their is no comparison between the US and any other industrialized nation as far as foriegn aid goes.

"we hate this war, but love americans, thank you"

key word there... "americans"

I love americans too. The policies of your leaders, your media and your right wing are another story.

"where would you be if we lost...."

Without our help, WE (being the free world) would have never won. You didn't win anything, we won it together.

- your country is the most hated in the world

- your elitist corporations are selling out your own people with outsourcing

- your national deficit is completely out of control and threatens the world economy

Come on, open your eyes! America is looking like Rome before the empire fell. If you don't learn from your mistakes out of arrogance, then that will be your downfall and you will have no one to blame but yourselves. If America doesn't join with the rest of the world as equals to stamp out terrorism, and let go of its pride, then theirs going to be some very scary consquences for all of us.

- Kevin



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VNGNTN1
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KIETH
Your'e wasting your time. RIGHT YES,but still wasting it.
VAN

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crazycanuck
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great counter-arguments guys

- Kevin



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keithsan
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Wow kevin you is really arrogant LOL

How would canada have reacted if the japanese had bombed them....
what happened was not right and some reparations werer made. At the time, you make the decsion. Leaders felt it was safer.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasnt. You can not guess at what would have happened if they were not placed in camps at the time.

The Germans never attacked the US, so i really dont think I'd be speaking German. Maybe Japanese.

Got to go back to WW2 ot find something Canada did?

I am reading what you said "Iraq and Afghanistan- not so much" not my mistake, yours. you lumped them together not I. 2 different problems.

America is most hated in world..... scary isnt it. Not countries were attrocities are commited every day. America where you can live and work. Where we give 10x the amount of money, but its because we have more people.

America has made mistakes and has done things right too. To skip the facts to wine and complain about the ones you don't like is silly.

Why do you feel America is more hated than North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Iran just to name a few. How much aid are they giving the world, or even their own people.

How is trying to stamp out terrorism and how. If America took out Binladen before Sept. 11th. there would have been an outcry.
He couldnt have harmed you blah, blah, blah..

America is the main target because we represent the western world in many ways. Not my words, BinLaden's. If America was to be defeated, who would be next......

Enjoy your closet, and complain about the next move we make.

keith


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came acrosss this, not that i agree or disagree with its conclusion. but its an interesting read. Imagine the outrage if the American Government said these things about canadians.

SEATTLE — Evil — a word usually reserved for the likes of Adolph Hitler or Usama bin Laden — is now being used by more than a third of Canadian teens to describe the United States.

In a recent poll, 40 percent of Canadian teens said the United States is a force for evil in the world, with 50 percent saying it’s a force for good and 10 percent reporting they were undecided on the subject. French-Canadians (search) were even harsher, with 64 percent of them calling America a force for evil.

“What they’re reacting to is a sense that the U.S. is belligerent,” said the pollster who conducted the phone survey, Greg Lyle. “The U.S. is sort of bellicose, warmongering [and has] this sort of cowboy diplomacy.”

But former Canadian diplomat Martin Collacot (search) says the teens are responding to cues from their government, the media and their teachers.

The anti-Americanism from the United States' northern neighbors seemed to peak when the Iraq war started.

In one incident, hockey fans in Montreal booed during the playing of the American national anthem. Then-Prime Minister Jean Chretien’s spokesman was caught on mike calling President Bush a moron. And while the streets of Quebec (search) were filled with war protesters, a member of Parliament from the ruling Liberal Party was quoted as saying: “Damn Americans. I hate those *******s.”


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crazycanuck
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haha, at least this time your putting up a good fight.

"How would canada have reacted if the japanese had bombed them...."

- the same as you, and theirs nothing wrong with that. I never said their was either.

"The Germans never attacked the US, so i really dont think I'd be speaking German."

- they never got past france thanks to England and Canada

"Why do you feel America is more hated than North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Iran just to name a few. How much aid are they giving the world, or even their own people."

- thats the f*cked thing, because Bush is such a cowboy with his foriegn policy, America IS more hated than those countries. It shouldn't be that way, I bet we both agree on that.

"Enjoy your closet, and complain about the next move we make."

- Enjoy your close minded arroagance, and complain about the next terrorist attack

As far as that article goes, it just highlights EXACTLY what I've been saying. America's foriegn policy is causing so much hatered around the world. And not just from crazed dictator driven theologies, but your best friend's in the world. People WANT to love America, so why don't your leaders treat them like equals instead of spitting in their face? You ain't winning this war without us, whether you like it or not.

- Kevin


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crazycanuck
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oh, btw... WW2 numbers

Country Casualties
Russia 20 000 000
China 10 000 000 to 15 000 000
Germany & Japan 6 500 000 inc. 1 000 000 German civilians
Bengal 1 500 000 (mostly indirect in 1943)
Yugoslavia 1 300 000
Britain 420 000
Italy 500 000
France 500 000
Hungary 350 000 approx.
Poland 350 000 approx.
Romania 350 000 approx.
United States 300 000
Canada 230 000


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crazycanuck
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And as for foriegn aid, 22nd place out of the 22 most advanced nations...


Foreign Aid: USA is stingiest of the 22 most developed countries6
The USA claims to be, in absolute terms, the world's biggest giver and this is true. However, as a proportion of it's wealth the USA gives least when compared to all 22 of the worlds' most developed countries.

"[Americans] are regularly told by politicians and the media, that America is the world's most generous nation. This is one of the most conventional pieces of 'knowledgable ignorance'. [...For example Japan gives more even in absolute terms...]
Absolute figures are less significant than the proportion of gross domestic product (GDP, or national wealth) that a country devotes to foreign aid. On that league table, the US ranks twenty-second of the 22 most developed nations. As former President Jimmy Carter commented: 'We are the stingiest nation of all'. Denmark is top of the table, giving 1.01% of GDP, while the US manages just 0.1%. The United Nations has long established the target of 0.7% GDP for development assistance, although only four countries actually achieve this: Denmark, 1.01%; Norway, 0.91%; the Netherlands, 0.79%; Sweden, 0.7%. Apart from being the least generous nation, the US is highly selective in who receives its aid. Over 50% of its aid budget is spent on middle-income countries in the Middle East, with Israel being the recipient of the largest single share."

"Why do people hate America?" by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies, 2002. p79

Not only that, but according to one source cited by Sarder & Davies, 80% of that aid itself actually goes to American companies in those foreign countries.

"Why do people hate America?" by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies, 2002. p79

So lets not even go in that direction!

- Kevin


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LOL,
USA lost 292,000 to 37,500 canadians.
Dont alter the facts please....DO not ever state that canadians did more for the world in WW2!

Here is the list of allied soldiers killed in WW2 in countries that were not attacked. CANADA, BRAZIL and the NETHERLANDS are in the same company as Canada, please do not compare to the US or others, it is an embarassement to them. since you may call me a liar, I will post the international WW2 site for all to see, the list of soldiers killed in action will also be linked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country

Here is main site, non profit company: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II


Allied soldiers killed
Australia: 23,400
Brazil: 493
Canada: 37,500
China: 2,050,000
Czechoslovakia: 46,000
France and Free French Forces: 210,000
Greece: 88,300
Luxembourg: 4,000
Netherlands: 7,900
New Zealand: 10,000
Poland: 123,000
South Africa: 6,840
Soviet Union: 19,180,000
United Kingdom: 264,000
United States: 292,000
Yugoslavia: 300,000
TOTAL Allied soldiers killed: approximately 22.6 million

In this next linky you will notice that US fighting forces in WW2 were 6 hundred thousand while canada had only 92,000 engaged in battle. Although this links give casualities for Canada at 42,000.
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html

this is getting old, yes Canada loved America when Clinton was president, I forgot.LOL clinton was very hated for the Kosovo attacks all over Europe, but...I gues you only want to be European.

Finally after 11 years of your anti-American government, a more pro-american one just had a nice showing it was good to see.

America gives the most money but should give more, because they are wealthier....
Honestly I do not understand your argument, basically your premise is that if you work hard and make money you have to give more of it away. I dont buy that argument and am not a sociolist. The fact is we give more money than some larger and some smaller countries. yes if we were a poorer country the percentage would be greater.

Thats a philosophical difference is all, but, arguing we dont do are part, really doesnt fly.

AS far as mine and your article, I randomly came across it after i had responded to you and felt a need to post it. I could go and hunt many pro american and pro canadian writings as well as anti... we could both do this for years and get no where.

when I posted mine i said i dont agree with the conclusions and still dont, actually think the poll was a small sample and with lack of actuall questions, unverifiable.

But, i did post for the rude and arrogant statements your government chooses to make about mine, this has also become normalcy in France as well as Germany, sadly.

when i asked about numbers, it was not in reference to ww2 numbers, you put in lost soldiers and lied, but what about money and technology used to fight off germany, hell we took care of japan real quick, it is sad later but ended their role quickly. what was the cost of that on other countries, how many lives saved.

PLEASE DO NOT STATE YOUR MEAGER AMOUNT OF SOLDIERS STOPPED GERMANY LOL. I LOVE CANADA, AND HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS ARGUMENT FROM THEM IT IS LAUGHABLE!

Again, on terrorism, I dont think my country does enough, and definately not the world. I am of the personal oppinion that if a country decides to allow terrorists to train, practice and fund from there country, that is an act of war. Since terrorists are then sent around the world. I am waiting for the world to help stop some of these people and regimes from operating. Really, though, the world is much happier if these people are not confronted. look at all the money maid illegally off of Iraq from france, its appalling.

Why would anyone listen to a UN sanction. Now N. Koreas new rockets were made in Russia, but, there are sanctions.....


If terrorist training camps were stopped earlier, we wouldnt have many of the attacks we've had over the last decade and more.

In my world we end that option, it may take a while but I personally see no other choice. If you do not listen to requests, sanctions etc. Hopefully force works.

Currently I am in Europe (Greece) and briefly rolled through France on the way. Not that it matters, but I summer in Europe and if you know europeans they enjoy their arguments.

Nothing is ever solved, but, we all get to argue. Finding this one of those types of aruguments.

Enjoy the day

keith

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited August 07, 2004).]


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keithsan
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anone interested in DDing WW2, here is where there are a million sites.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=world+war+II+deaths+by+country

please do not believe lies, and rhetoric not backed up by facts. Please disagree with anything i have written, but, FACTS can not be dismissed.

Normally I stick to my opinion only.

Enjoy the world

keith


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Look, with all facts and numbers the United Stated basically pays for 25% of the amount neededed for aids and other UN related issues for world health problems.

Please do not tell me we need to contribute for more than 25% of the world.
http://www.woaafrica.org/AIDS32.htm

this is more direct....
http://www.avert.org/aidsmoney.htm

Heres what I see on Canadas aids relief,
honestly, (since I am) these seem proportionate with one another. http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/cida_ind.nsf/0/5afc5045f75031e685256def00513919?OpenDocument

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited August 07, 2004).]


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crazycanuck
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The U.S. has also NEVER paid its UN dues.

I'm not going to argue with statistics and past wars anymore, because we could do that forever without getting anywhere.

I'll just re-iterate my most important point...

Enjoy your close minded arroagance, and complain about the next terrorist attack

Last time, the world (outside of palestine) was with you in sympathy and ready to join in arms with you. Instead your leaders took away your civil liberties without asking you, destroyed your alliances with the world and have left you isolated and alone. Your debt is out of control, your wealthy upper class are selling you down the outsourcing river and your american dream has been essentially destroyed. Osama Bin Laden is winning, your leaders are playing right into his hands (diving the world, america is weak and its values eroded), and as LONG AS YOUR CLOSE MINDED ARROAGANCE continues... there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it. The next time you are attacked, you will get little sympathy, only resounding "we told you so" from a world that hates your policies. Its just a matter of how much suffering and humiliation its going to take before Americans have the balls to apologize and make good with the world again. Lets hope thats sooner rather than later...

- Kevin


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keithsan
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well, you cant win with the facts especially false ones from WW2

the US government pays aproximately 25% off all un aid given, funds the IMF and World Bank. That does not take into account theprivate American donations which are the highest in the wold for foreign aid.

One of the reason private donations are so high is that the govenment provides incentives for this.

Our Debt is higher, correct, we are fighting 2 wars. They cost money. Although we could take 15 billion off of our debt by not giving foreign aid in 2005. So, if needed, we could turn our debt around. We will not do that though.

Our unemployment rate is 5.5% what is yours, I now most of Europe is 10-20% where I am now is 12%.

We get little sympathy when we are attacked, that is true. So, our enemies announce who they are and we will go after them. I am sure you hate the Iraq war, but, you have leaders of European countries and Russia who stated their intelligence said sadam was plotting against the U.S.

Could he do something, i dont know. We didnt think Bin Laden could and look what he accomplished. IMO if these types of people want to fight we will go and fight.

If you want to complain about america do it, dont exagerate your existence though, you can complain all you want, but a lot of your citizens come here to work and never leave and even more come to get an education. This is a wonderfull thing, I cross your borders and enjoy your hospitality yearly myself.

Personally, I feel a lot of the anti-americanism is fear and jealousy. When I'm in Europe they often say ahh America doesnt have the history.

Well, look what we've accomplished in much less time.

as for aids. in 2005 America is sending 1.26 billion dollars. I think its too much, but Annan had asked all countries for more this year. Also America donates another 5 mill to get infrastructure etc. built in africa. if you are interested in the whole 2005 aid package, approved now, which usually goes higher. Here it is.
http://www.foreignaidwatch.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=New s&file=article&sid=792&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

keep whining


keith

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited August 09, 2004).]


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keithsan
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sory, I forgot, my civil liberties were not taken away. stop listening to rhetoric. Yes there is more security, yes there are more investigations into those who may create or run terrorists cells. These will all alter with time, and through our courts, they are quick stopgap measures to attempt to ensure american safety. Which is the most important.

UN Dues payment as you hopefully are aware, there is argument withing Europe and the US that boths dues are too high. Dues are currently based on GNP and is related to nothing else. America is not on land that is great in wealth, its GNP is created. Why not base it on population, land mass, well...obviously these arguments are silly but these countries that hate the us so much, want us to pay 25% of the UN aid packages, 25% of dues, think Europes total is 29% etc...


Also, i think the UN is worthless personally. It is a great idea but when countries that commite human right attrocities in their countries are now head of human rights commisions, they are insane. That is not a functioning body.

France threatens to veto war with Iraq, investigated for skimming billions off the Oil for food program.

N. Korea, weapons block, but they can still by missles illegally from Russia.

why is this corrupt body so important...
What about all the genocide going on now, the UN bickers and by the time they get involved 3 million are dead.

I hope your only playing Canadian stocks.

Keith


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crazycanuck
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haha, i love playing the american markets because they are so damn easy.

More crap about foriegn aid, bla bla bla, per capita "america is the stingiest nation on earth" (former president Jimmy Carter), its a statistical fact and no amount of figures you can produce will change that.

Oh, the fact that you don't know your rights have been taken away from you doesn't make it not true. The patriot act eliminates your privacy rights if the feds think your a terrorist, they don't have to have ANY justification for this suspicion whatsoever. The patriot act 2, which will go through in its entirety if bush wins, will do the same to freedom of speech.

Pulling back your foriegn aid won't even dent your deficit. Your deficit is 400-500 billion a year, adding to a national debt in the trillions.

- Kevin

P.S. If you hear anything bad about Canada, make sure its not Quebec thats being talked about. Judging Canada by looking at Quebec is like judging America by looking at the south. If canada and america were people, quebec and the south would be their asses.


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keithsan
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again your facts are wrong come talk to me in a hundred years when we no longer exist. LOL

Worry about your own freedoms:I am fine with the patriot act, which will be reduced through laws in a few years. Especially if it is abused, which it hasnt been yet.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=14302

I dont judge canada, i like the place, enjoy the sites. I even liked your politics more this year.

The only countries I complain about are the ones who train terrorists, syria, Iran, etc...

I am not one of these boycott the french because they threatened to veto the war or were stealing money from the UN. I dont even hate canada when your government says rotten inappropriate things about american people.

I agree with your Quebec point, thats why i never brought it up. Interesting to see if they vote to secede now with new gov't though. I have heard some are pushing for the vote, i'm not really following though.

judging canada by quebecs action, is like juding the U.S. through the U.N.


I would rather be loved or hated than to be irrelevant.

keith

Ps. i will be on st. cahterines in montreal over the winter if you want to enjoy a beer, molson of course.

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited August 10, 2004).]


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Rags2BetahRags
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Well I was looking at some stuff in here and noticed shooting down Canada so I had to post this.......

1) Canada has a great pension plan for the seniors and baby boomers.
http://www.cbc.ca/retirement/boomers.html

They will be looked after. Its on the rest of the generations to carry them.
"Baby boomers can expect to live long enough to be a problem not only for their children, but their grandchildren and great-grandchildren too," says a 1998 study by demographers David Baxter and Andrew Ramlo.


2) Canada has a great medical system in place which is cost effective to the public.
http://www.taxpayer.com/ltts/federal/July28-04.htm

Now the upfront cost is low looking at the fact that the premiers are not reporting thus not being taken into account. This being said makes it self explanatory to say that taxes have to be raised for the average Joe to make up the difference.

3) The wonderfully famous Land of the FREE?????

What brainiatic thought of this thing? Taxes upon taxes. Yes it has decreased the deficit BUT at what cost? Then again they said it was going to do that but neglected to inform Canadians that not all of it would be used, rather a portion of this collected would be to infuse to support the ever growing seniors on CPP. Now the babyboomers paid their share when working and their money contributed is gone and the Gen X is paying their share and wont see any of it nor will their children. So with all this collected money of CPP contributions and GST and decreasing the deficit by 1% per annum is not realistic now is it?

Provincial Tax
Manufactures Tax
Goods and Services Tax
Income Tax
Elimination of Capital Gains

I wont even mention the cost of 37 Billion dollars to implement and maintain the billingualism within Canada which is not wanted by the majority and only supports the francophones.
http://www.taxpayer.com/Facts/BilingualismCost.html

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee

This being said..................


Your Fellow Canadian that now has chose to exercise his right fo freedom of speech and choice to relocate to USA where I at least will have a chance to meet the guy digging in my wallet when he robs me.

Not meant to be ignorant or rude and only my opinion.


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keithsan
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If I was shooting down Canada, I never meant too. I love and visit canada. I attempted to only bring in canadian and european policies as a linkage to rhetorical attacks.

I am not one to attack a country or its people i find it similar to racism and religous fanaticism, and i apologize if i felt any had to defend themselves.

I am not one for the socialist way of running things myself, creates a lot of arguments here in greece where the communist party still wins seats.

keith


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crazycanuck
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I'm not anti-american just for the record. Just against the corporate influenced american foriegn policy since reagen and thatcher's neoliberal agenda. Almost everyone is against that though.

- Kevin


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keithsan
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thatcher and reagan, pretty respected around the world.....

maybe you should review your radical communist ideology.

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited August 10, 2004).]


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crazycanuck
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haha, thatcher and reagen, respected around the world? dear god...

maybe you should escape your coporate media's facist view of the world?

- Kevin


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tuck
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OK, I have to get in on this. Market is bad right now. My personal feelings is screw the world. I am tired on hearing anti American comments. Anyone who doesn't know that the US has stabilized and maintained freedom in the world since WWI is just down right dumb. NO, I do not agree with all we have done or will do in the future, but we do provide troops, money and support for whoever needs it. I wish we would bring ALL our troops home and MONEY, drill wells in Alaska and the gulf and to hell with the rest of the world. Close our doors and see who is the first country to complain. Our country is becoming much to liberal, and concerned for what others think. And oh yeah, take the United Nations and put them in France. We are at war and have been for about 17 years. Unless we wake up and act like it, this country and others will not be here for our children.

Gary


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quote:
Originally posted by tuck:
OK, I have to get in on this. Market is bad right now. My personal feelings is screw the world. I am tired on hearing anti American comments. Anyone who doesn't know that the US has stabilized and maintained freedom in the world since WWI is just down right dumb. NO, I do not agree with all we have done or will do in the future, but we do provide troops, money and support for whoever needs it. I wish we would bring ALL our troops home and MONEY, drill wells in Alaska and the gulf and to hell with the rest of the world. Close our doors and see who is the first country to complain. Our country is becoming much to liberal, and concerned for what others think. And oh yeah, take the United Nations and put them in France. We are at war and have been for about 17 years. Unless we wake up and act like it, this country and others will not be here for our children.

Gary


A M E N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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thanks tuck,

next time this crap come up can you post so i can rest.....

enjoy the world

keith


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