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Author Topic: It is a war of reactionaries.....
HasmirFenring
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I don't mean to step on the toes of any Americans, but as an outsider looking in it really strikes me that the country is still very much split along pre-civil war ideologies. If one compares a map of Confederate states and states that vote Republican nowadays (and vice versa for the North and Democrats), the correlation is obvious. While most political parties in my country spit useless rhetoric about various national institutions (like Health care, equality rights, etc.), I find that most American politicians focus mainly on the generalizations that each side makes about the other. Ie. Democrats never want to go to war because THEY are all cowards and babies, and Republicans want war because THEY are all nasty and greedy...

The reason I mention this is that 1) The intelligence of the electorate doesn't seem to be extending beyond self-righteousness over a war that ended a century ago and 2) Most of the country is totally marginalized by existing in a uninformed political pipe-dream where the greedy capitalist suits on YOUR side are sticking up for justice and piety against the evil will of the greedy capitalist suits on THEIR side. Well if you go to Nicaragua or Guatemala or El Salvador or even countries that the US didn't carve up for business, there is still the overpowering stigma that Americans come with guns first and then the capitalst suits come after. It doesn't matter if they won the civil war or not.
I'm sure this will get flamed but it's just sort of what I have gathered from a few books, so I don't claim to be preaching truth or anything.

Quick quiz.....Which country on earth has God blessed the most??? lol


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VNGNTN1
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WHAT'S YOUR POINT
VAN
PS What country did you say your from ?

[This message has been edited by VNGNTN1 (edited June 21, 2004).]


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HasmirFenring
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My point was to start a open-minded, informed conversation on the topic. The reason I left out my country of origin was because I know where that conversation will lead and as I said in my message, there are more important issues to discuss than which countries you dislike and why.

LET'S NOT TURN THIS INTO A BASH FEST, if you totally disagree with me then post your opinion. I am interested in what is true Van, not who can piss the highest on the pole. I have no problems with anyone from any country. Yes, it is true, at this time I am not very supportive of past US governments. You got it out me. You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I am one of THEM.


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VNGNTN1
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WELL
The whole world is bashing America. Really doen't matter where you are from. I live here and am proud of it. Until the rest of the world can take care of themselves we don't need to hear a lot of crap from others.
Last week it was a guy from Ukraine bashing on the American Socialism and taxes.
VAN

[This message has been edited by VNGNTN1 (edited June 21, 2004).]


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HasmirFenring
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I agree that it is definitely a politically convenient (not to mention socially "cool") thing to be an America-hater lately in a lot of places around the world. It pisses me off that people who previously cared little for politics (and still don't care)are now ranting about Bush and Cheney because it's cool too. Left-wing political parties tend to jump on board as well.

Im regards to your comment about the guy from Ukraine, I am wondering, what is your opinion on the role of one's nationality in such a discussion? Do certain countries tarnish credibility?


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VNGNTN1
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NO Countries do not tarnish the discussions. It' s the people who don't fully understnd what freedom is , how it works, but have a lot of opinions about what America should be doing.
When a foriegner brings a political discussion to an American board they should expect a little resistance & difference of opinion.Don't forget whenever the world gets in trouble one of my friends or sons comes over to bail them out with soldiers, food , cash.
As you can see if "your" country was one that I respected (how would I know) and there was some common ground, then who knows.

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HasmirFenring
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How much do you know about the history of Ukraine? Any country that has ever fought in a war (which is just about everyone) has lost friends and sons. Why are friends and sons from the United States different?
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VNGNTN1
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Sorry it is taking me so long, but just can't seem to remember anyone, any money sent here on 911 ( probably not from yours either).
Now we have foriegners cutting off Americans Heads.

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HasmirFenring
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I'm not sure what your point is, could you clarify. And could somebody else PLEASE add to this board! Perhaps an American stocktrading Bulletin Board filled with God Bless Reagan posts was a bad place to actually get some information on right-wing/conservative thought. Sigh. I will check back though in case anyone wants to tear a strip off someone from Soviet Canuckistan (with I think is part of the Axis of Evil). Sorry for trying, I will leave y'all to your rabbits
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Zeker
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I would be happy to open a topic of conversation with you, Hasmir- but I must warn you ahead of time: stick to the issues and make your points, or don't even waste my time.
BTW- that's pretty good English composition you have there- what nation funded your western education?
P.S. You asked "Which country on earth has God blessed the most???"
What a loaded question.
-Whose aspect of who/what God is are you basing that on?
-Whose definiton of the word 'blessed' are you going by?
Perhaps the answer is Switzerland- they were surrounded by two world wars and were just a stone's throw away from the iron curtain for its entirity, yet did not suffer one casualty, nor lose one acre of land-
Perhaps Paraguay- they have suffered no cases of incursion- no natural disasters- no civil strife- in recent history.
Whose God do you speak of?
Which version of God do you speak of?
Which myths are you baing that question upon?
Are you speaking of YHWH, ALLAH, OSIRIS, ZEUS, VISHNU or ODIN? Or perhaps even Emperor Hirohito? For mew to answer your question, I need to first know who/what God is/means to you.

[This message has been edited by Zeker (edited June 22, 2004).]


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WWJD-thru-me
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Hi-The best way to have peace on earth is probably to avoid political discussions. But, I will risk losing peace here to add my answers to your question. If I separate the word country into two words that often get defined as country I would use the words Nation and Country. I would say God Blessed America the country the most. I would define God as meaning Jehovah, YAWEH, G-D, The Holy One of Israel, Father, Son and Holy Spririt as most Americans over 40 would have traditionally thought of Him. I would say the Nation he has most Blessed would be Israel, the apple of His eye. He loved them and chose them not because they were the biggest and the strongest but just because He did. And if anyone wants to be blessed they better be nice to Israel. If you look at history anyone who fought against Israel is not prosperous. They fight against God's people to their own harm. I think one of the reasons we as a Nation have been blessed in the past is that we were a friend of God by trying to please Him by honoring Him and obeying His laws, praying in schools and even reading the Bible and having the 10 commandments on display. We recognized true justice as coming from God and sought His wisdom. And we have always been a friend to Israel-although we should have opened our borders more to receive every Jewish soul who wanted in during and pre-WWII. Now we kind of flip God the bird and say we don't want you or your laws, take your 10 commandments and leave us alone. We call evil good and good evil and if any of our enemies triumph over us it will not be because of their strength but because God withdrew His hand of blessing from us. I think the political battles we face are really battles of belief systems, I think many Republicans vote that way because they like the idea os smaller Government, strong National Security, More traditional understanding of the Constitution and it's interpretation and see the role tax breaks for business have in a stron economy. Many Democrats vote the way they do because they believe that the Democrats are for the little guy and will keep the Big Bad Government out of their life. Then there are the Democrats who think Government will solve all the problems of life and there is no such thing as too big of government or too high of taxes for anyone-especially the rich-at the rate they are going-Rich will be defined as anyone earning $30,000. It is a battle of idealogies and the danger I see is that they want activist judges legislating from the bench. This threatens to upset the balance of the 3 roles of our government with the judges both writing and administering the laws. Scary. In Massachusetts where I live they just passed 'Gay' marriage. We were not allowed to vote on this and our representatives phillibustered and would not even vote on allowing us to vote on this. Taxation without representation. Welfare is totally out of whack with generations of people now living on Uncle Sam's plantation. That includes plenty of white people. But I love that expression-it is the title of a book written by an awesome black woman whose name escapes me. Anyway, I feel like I have vented a little. Neither party is right but I feel a lot more comfortable with the Republicans and I love George Bush. He is not perfect but then neither am I or anyone else. I love America, Mom and apple pie. I wave the flag, pay my taxes, go to church and love my husband and kids. And I think we have been the most bless country God has blessed and I pray we repent-not just to retain or regain His blessings but because we need to. IMO-Debi PS-I think the Nation that has most blessed the earth is Israel because Jesus came through the Nation of Israel. Anyone who thinks they can love Jesus and hate the Jews better think again before the final exam when you stand before Yeshua Ha Meschiach.
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VNGNTN1
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DEBI
Some of my studys, INDICATE the lost tribe of Israel is AMERICA !! Wouldn't that explain a lot ?
To me Politics is the lowest common denominator(MAN). Worse than mediocrity.
TO me Religion is the lowest common denominator(MAN). Worse than Aethism.
To me The individual striving for Spiritual understanding will find freedom & peace.
VAN
Hope Paul emailed you

[This message has been edited by VNGNTN1 (edited June 22, 2004).]


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WWJD-thru-me
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Van wrote: Some of my studys, INDICATE the lost tribe of Israel is AMERICA !! Wouldn't that explain a lot ?
To me Politics is the lowest common denominator(MAN). Worse than mediocrity.
TO me Religion is the lowest common denominator(MAN). Worse than Aethism.
To me The individual striving for Spiritual understanding will find freedom & peace.
VAN
---------------------------------------------
Van -The lost tribe idea is interesting. I have heard it before but haven't really contemplated it too much. There are so many ideas on that one.
---------------------------------------------
I agree with your politics (man) and religion (atheism) ideas. I hate religion. To me the individual striving for Spiritual understanding and peace won't necessarily find it. If he searches for God with all his heart, the Bible says he will find God. I would also add my opinion that man giving up and letting God reach him is the short path to peace.
-Debi

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TickerToo
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How much do you know about the history of Ukraine? Any country that has ever fought in a war (which is just about everyone) has lost friends and sons. Why are friends and sons from the United States different?

By the way, in World War I, did the people within the current boundaries of the Ukraine fight with Russia, or with Hungary?

This is a very important question in order to continue this particular comment of yours.


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TickerToo
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quote:
Originally posted by HasmirFenring:
How much do you know about the history of Ukraine? Any country that has ever fought in a war (which is just about everyone) has lost friends and sons. Why are friends and sons from the United States different?

____________________
TickerToo now:
I apologize for the post above this one. I should have responded directly to the quote as I have now rather than copy & paste. The post above this one looks like I wrote the 1st paragraph about the ukraine.

HASMIRFENRING: I'll ask again:

By the way, in World War I, did the people within the current boundaries of the Ukraine fight with Russia, or with Hungary?

This is a very important question in order to continue this particular comment of yours.

The first World War began when a Serbian man assassinated the Austro-Hungarian Archduke Heir-apparrent.


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Zeker
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quote:
-----------------------------------
Originally posted by HasmirFenring:
How much do you know about the history of Ukraine? Any country that has ever fought in a war (which is just about everyone) has lost friends and sons. Why are friends and sons from the United States different?

I would also like to reply to this statement.
First of all, I know quite a bit about the Ukraine- and it isn’t very flattering. But what is your point? This is an American stock site, not a Slavic communist website.
Next, although we share in the grief of the world, and are the most selfless nation there has ever been, our sons are different because :
They are OUR sons:
We have paid the ultimate price many times, to not only uproot domestic tyrants, but to also defeat foreign tyrants- including those whom ruled over the Ukraine because the Ukrainians were too (cowardly?) to emancipate themselves.
We- as a people- won our independence a long time ago- the hard way, and have maintained our freedoms while other nations- the Ukraine included- bowed to foreign-born oppression and opted to kiss boots rather than to stand up and fend off that which was bleeding them.
Given the option, most- if not all- Americans would lay down their lives rather than live under tyranny the likes of which Ukrainians have- on more than a few occasions- cowardly succumbed to.
Our national psyche is vastly different than that of the Ukraine's: our national identity and ideology centers around the statement: "Give me liberty, or give me death". And when push comes to shove, we show up for battle. For that- the fact that we alone are the ones whom the world turns to whenever someone like Hitler or STALIN starts uttering their tyrant mottoes- is why we prefer to watch over our own: AS HISTORY PROVES, we are all that we- and the free world, for that matter- can count on.
Of course, Serbia is in the Balkans, not the Ukraine: but that only goes to show one thing: that Ukrainian history is of no real significant distinction from many of the Ukraine’s Slavic neighbors', because no one has stepped forward to distinguish it. To the average American- and I would venture to say that to most people, the Ukraine is still as it had been for so long: a vassal of Russia, and to ask an American to explain the history of the Ukraine, is like asking a Ukrainian to describe the history of Paraguay. In fact, even that is a bad comparison, because the national identity of Paraguay died in battle, instead of living out an artificial fate as the vassal of its neighbors. The question to ask, is how much you know about Ukrainian history, seeing that its people’s ‘history’ lessons had been dictated to them from Moscow for so long.
In one word, I can define the history of the Ukraine: vassal. Whether it be directly to Moscow, or indirectly through the Russian mob, the Ukraine has yet to distinguish itself as a separate entity from its traditional overlord in the minds of the world. After all, a Ukrainian didn’t get Gorbachev to tear down that wall- the AMERICAN president whom you slurred on a previous thread did. The Ukraine didn’t defeat the iron curtain- America bankrupted it. That is what I detest about cowards: when they are oppressed, they remain silent- but when they are emancipated from the outside, they trivialize the efforts and vilify the sacrifices made on their behalf which they themselves were too much of cowards to make.


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TickerToo
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Ya Ya Zeker!!!!


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WWJD-thru-me
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Zeker wrote: That is what I detest about cowards: when they are oppressed, they remain silent- but when they are emancipated from the outside, they trivialize the efforts and vilify the sacrifices made on their behalf which they themselves were too much of cowards to make.
---------------------------------------------
This is so true. France recently demonstrated this by siding with our enemies after we kept them from needing to speak German and eat sauerkraut all their days.
-Debi


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HasmirFenring
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Hey guys I am sorry if you thought I left, like a said, I was gonna try and let some others get in here and take the heat down a bit.
Before I get into anything too heavy with y'all I am going to take a more serious look at the literature you guys are referring to. I can understand that from the perspective you guys have, it must be frustrating to have one of "them" questioning your moral high-ground, but despite any disagreements I think the fact remains that we are all most likely looking for the same things. We like truth, we like people to be free and protected, we love our families, we want freedom of religion and our rights protected. We obviously disagree on many fundamental issues but this is likely because we have read different interpretations and spins of the same facts. Yes maybe I have been brainwashed by "liberal lies", I acknowledge the possibility, it's not like I am a professor so I apologize for making some comments that indicate I am much more sure of myself than I rationally should be (and I feel the same goes for anyone on this board so don't get too excited). I know it is hard to want to talk to someone that you hate so much but you have to understand, despite my anger that seeped out I came onto this board and made a few topics to try and understand how things were working in that political sphere, and so far I have gotten one or two great posts that I really appreciate and the rest is mainly character assasination that steers the boat WELL AWAY from relevant discussion.

What if I told you that I used to live in Dallas, moved to San Antonio for a decade, traveled through asia and lived in India for a few years, then worked as an aide to Reagan, and then retired to trade stocks and live with my family in Edmonton. Maybe I am 67. Not only do you not have a clue (unless you are relying on your psychic ability of making all of your prejudices and stereotypes into reality), it is also irrelevant. Bash my views, bash my spelling, bash away, but can we at least agree to keep the topic away from "why I am such a liberal loser" ha ha believe me you aren't convincing me that I should run to the bathroom and slit my wrists. If anything you are showing me that so far the people on the interntet that I have been asking about right-wing politics hate me for being from Not-America (a new country that most of the world lives in).


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HasmirFenring
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PS For everyone who has written posts that are civil, I appreciate it and like I said, I know it is a frustrating conversation for you. Ticker and WWJD and a couple of others obviously think I am a total tool but they are at least taking the time to avoid personal attacks, thanks folks, your posts are appreciated.
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VNGNTN1
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HF
I think it strange that (appears) you are signing off. You mention those who did this and that, but YOU STARTED THIS THREAD with a flame thrower. I think it was on purpose and you found people who are solid in thier positions. Some willing to counterpunch others wanting to engage softly.
If I were you I would be ASHAMED OF MYSELF.
VAN

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TickerToo
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Hamir, I don't think you are a tool. You asked for some books on the American Conservative point of view. I gave you a list of quite a few conservative books.

IF I ADD my two cents on the newest thread regarding terrorism, you'll see I say you have a very valid point in one of your posts regarding how smart a terrorist is.

I would like to know what you have learned. It might help us understand more clearly what you are bringing up in the threads. It is good conversation. Although my hubby and dogs would appreciate more attention... they have been so lost without me these past few days.

I must ask though. In your very original post regarding the boundaries of the civil war (a war to free or not to free the slaves of the south), you go on to discuss countries that America has "carved-up" with guns & force.

Considering the entire world for thousands of years has been in the business of attacking and taking over someone else's land & country... could you please tell me what lands America has attacked with guns & weapons, taken over and remained as the power in control?

And most importantly, in the course of the last 120 years where America has tried to form a New World where people don't go attacking, taking over & controling each other, could you please tell me which countries we have attached & taken-over, carved-up and now control?

This is a part of American History you seem more familiar with. I really don't know it. You could quickly tell me the countries, the approximate time reference, and what American was placed in control?

I look forward to your reply Hasmir!




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HasmirFenring
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Ah geez I just wrote a big long post and then I clicked the "back" button by accident an lost it all..Ahhhhgggg....Ok well lemme start off by saying that I totally agree with you Van, the more I read over my first few contributions the more I regret them, to say that it began with a flamethrower would be an understatement. I apologize, and I hope we can have a civil discussion. (Maybe we should move over to new thread with a new subject line).
And Ticker, before I get into dates and links, lemme first INSIST that people don't see this post as me trying to "enlighten" or something, after seeing the conviction of this forum I am trying to be undecided and objective (hopefully they can co-exist) put me in the category of "reading a lot and trying to make sense of this stuff"...That being said, if you go to www.google.ca or www.yahoo.com (I don't know which search engines you guys all use but I check a few and the results are pretty consistent across the ones I am aware of) and if you type in "american military intervention latin america" or "american intervention latin america" you will get a wealth of information. I am hesitant to post quick factoids of start-stop dates and titles because there is often a grey area (ie. Vietnam). If you type in American aid to latin america (a slightly less tilted search) you will get a long list of relevant websites with more info than you can shake a stick at. I'll give you a few quick links on a couple of topics though.
A couple quick points
1) I will be the first to agree that the United States doesn't act too much differently than past world super-powers. Rome, China, Britain, France, Portugal, Spain, the US, Russia, etc. There is no shortage of information about the imperialist exploits of anyone on this list. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but the info is there. Am I holding the US to a higher standard? No. I think imperialism is just as selfish and immoral now as it was when France was bombing Algeria or when Britain was squeezing the US colonies to pay for a war with France.
2) I don't associate the actions of the US gov't with the American people. At any given time, roughly half the population is firmly opposed to whatever the gov is doing. Okay sheesh enough disclaimers
If you want to start at the beginning we should maybe be talking Columbus but here is a link to the Library of Congress: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ni0017)

For a quick list of intervention since around 1898 (just before I was born), any search engine will turn this up: http://www.cc.ku.edu/cwis/organizations/las/interven.html

From what I have read, the whole idea seems to go back to the Monroe Doctrine and the addition of the "The Roosevelt Corollary", which you can read about here: http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030162/Common/Handouts/POTUS/TRoos.html The actual text of the Monroe Doctrine is available by typing it into any search engine. Worth reading, especially the last few lines.

And Tick I know you posted a book by Lincoln and it seems that most Americans like him so here are a couple of quotes from him regarding the American war with Mexico and a link where you'll find them:
"It is a fact, that the United States Army, in marching to the Rio Grande, marched into a peaceful Mexican settlement, and frightened the inhabitants away from their homes and their growing crops"

"I hold it to be a paramount duty of us in the free states, due to the Union of the states, and perhaps to liberty itself (paradox though it may seem) to let the slavery of the other states alone; while, on the other hand, I hold it to be equally clear, that we should never knowingly lend ourselves directly or indirectly, to prevent that slavery from dying a natural death."

Maybe you have read the "spot" resolutions of 1847 where Lincoln asked Pres. Polk to show the exact spot on "american" soil that American blood was shed (the implication being that the Mexican "invasion" that pre-empted war was in fact a Mexican response to American troops advancing on Mexican soil) "That soil was not ours; and Congress did not annex or attempt to annex it" http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/biography4text.html

For more recent things, you should check these sites about the US role in Guatemala and Nicaragua in the last 50 years. http://www.cda-cdai.ca/pdf/telfordpaper.pdf Well-cited article on some un-Lincoln-like activities by R.Reagan
To sum up the general feelings that I get from the left on the issue, I think the opinion is that the US has been systematically preventing democratic and/or socialist (which isn't a dirty word for the left because they like the idea of a welfare state for poor people who need help w/ food and healthcare, etc.) revolutions. As a professor/Air Force bombardier from Columbia puts it, "Between 1900 and 1933, the US intervened in Cuba four times, in Nicaragua twice, in Panama six times, in Guatemala once, in Honduras seven times. By 1924 the finances of half of the Latin American states were being directed to some extent by the US. By 1935, over half of US steel and cotton exports were being sold to Latin America".

Now for right or wrong, it seems to me that US business has clearly been heavily involved in Latin America since it has had the capability. It also seems to me that the US intervention always seems to leave a military dictator/power in place after a revolution. Now I agree that revolutions right next door are a little scary, especially if you are a US investor, but you can imagine how things would have gone for the American Revolution if they had a superpower like the US picking sides...As Lincoln pointed out, maybe for right or wrong, maybe these countries should have the right to make their own mistakes (unless you are worried about Guatemala or Cuba making an invasion force). As stated in the Monroe doctrine, the fundamental assumption seems to be that this area of the world is barbarous and untrustworthy as a peaceful ally, yet I am forced to wonder if they were ever given the chance, or if it would have even mattered.

Okay geez I'd better post this thing before I delete it for a second time. I am sure that there are a lot of people with good links to sites that have a lot more to say on these issues so please, post away folks!!!!! I will read anything you post and I will check out any links you have so don't hold back! PS lets make a new topic board for this topic? All in favour?




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HasmirFenring
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sorry, fergot to post the Guatemala link http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/US_Guat.html Lots of rhetoric in here but the stats are interesting and the United Fruit Company and the US is a topic worth doing extra research on.
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