This is topic THE Official USA vs Russia Military Tech Thread! in forum Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk at Allstocks.com's Bulletin Board.


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Posted by Relentless. on :
 
I'll out logic you here and there but let's keep the discussion topics separate.

F-35 sucks.
F-22 is cool but falls to the SU-35 all day.

The F-16 is the last competent fighter jet we had and it is gen 4.

We can't fight Russia in Russia because we can't support the logistics.

Their missile tech can stop us from even trying.

Have at it knuckle-heads.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
If the SU -35 is so good/ then how come India stopped buying them and is SWITCHING to the Rafale?

I see no evidence that the F-22 falls to the SU-35 and neither do you because it doesn't exist. If we waged war on statistics? That would be like having a qualifying race at Indy or daytona and going home. stats don't mean a thing in real world apps. laying down a hotlap does not win wars or races.

You keep saying fighter, but we stopped building fighters. We build stealt-strike aircraft, and we have plan to use them that will work agianst Russia and China, but invading? nahhhh...
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
posted by relentless

We can't fight Russia in Russia because we can't support the logistics.

---------------------------------------------------

I would like to ask you a question rent.


How did us Americans handle the logistics of the atlantic theater and the pacific theater at the same time in WW11? I don't need an answer because we handled it very well this time it will be easier.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
ray, i think relentlss is saying we'd be dumb to try ousting Russia from the Ukraine.

I agree that it would be dumb. It would actually be dumber than invading Iraq was IMO.

First off, i don't think we could win ground war fighting ethnic Russians on what tey consider their own land any more than i think the Russians could occupy Cuba or anywher on south america.

The Ukriane is failed state, but so is Russsia especially if we keep the price of oil low. Thye don't have anywhere near the resources to exert their will around theworld that we do. But if we did try to exert our will in the Ukriane, e would give up our ability to exert our will in many, many other places around the world...

The Russian hardware is not nearly as good as advetised. That is not even arguable, but then neither is ours. Most of the crapola you see on hte news is specifically designed to keep the moeny flowing into defense contracting. It is in Lockkheeds interst to point out how "good" the Russies hdwr is because then people will expect US to spend more to beat it. The Russkies are selling their HDWR around th ewolrd too, but they don't have that many happy customers.

We spent two decades riding stealth-strike capability. It workED. It doesn't work as well now but it still works the best of anybody's. Drones? that's the new frontier, and if you thought fighting with guns was less honeorbale than fighting face to face with swords and spears, you are going to like dornes even less..

The thing is? We can build and deploy drone for 1/10 th ecost of manned aircraft, and they can pull more G's and carry more weapons because they don't have to keep a human alive in them.... It's the next wave of tech....
Predator and Reaper drones cost about $2,500-3,500 per flight hour; larger armed systems such as the military's Global Hawk cost about 10 times as much: approximately $30,000 per flight hour.The F-22 is proving very expensive to operate with a cost per flying hour far higher than for the warplane it replaces, the F-15. Facts: USAF data shows that in 2008 the F-22 costs $44K per flying hour and the F-15 costs $30K per flying hour.

USAF estimates F-35 will cost $32,000 per hour to operate. The US Air Force estimates that the Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter will cost about $32,000 per flying hour to operate, the service's top uniformed official says.May 29, 2013.

Remeber that govt bidding is to tthe lowest bidders, so the contracters fake the prices in hte estimates and then add cost-overruns to the contracts after they are awarded. The Russians do this too tho.


In the end, it really does come down to kills per dollar. Drones are going to be big in the next decade....
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
You are right about an invasion of Russia we would most likely end up like the all the others have, a complete wreck. However if you guys are talking dogfights and air warfare, it is almost the same thing and could escalate into a land war very easy.
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
The point is we can't beat them in their country. Not without nukes, and even that is an unknown because us three are not privy to the actual facts.

Russia, millitarily is in a win win because the only possible battlefield is their home field.

Glass states a valid point about bs propoganda on both sides about their tech, but when I read the specs of supposedly matched fighter planes it is quite clear Russia has an advantage. Why is that? Well as it turns out for the last couple decades our gen 3, gen 4, gen 5 and son gen 6 planes our developed sooner. We also tend to just dump money on them and glad hand the piss poor results. The Ruskies develop and release their planes after us in such a way that any weaknesses they perceive in our planes are attacked by theirs. They are also forced to be more frugal. As a result they tend to waste less and there is less glad handing while ignoring dismal failures.

Ray, your point about projecting force into Russia like we projected force in WWII-

It can't happen today. Not against Russia. First.. They'd know we are coming and could stop it (whine to the UN... Possibly sabotage it? But more likely the UN route) In WWII there were no satellites monitoring shorelines and every other square inch of Earth like there is now.

Let's think about something else, as far as what would constitute victory in that ever increasingly real engagement. What constitutes victory in war? Destroying the government, right?

Is that possible in a war with Russia without an invasion? Well yes as we saw at the end of the cold war it is. But we're talking hot war. So the answer in that situation would be no. Ask Bush Sr. about Iraq. Do we stand any chance of winning a ground war in Russia with their love of guns and FIERCE national loyalty?

Hell no.


This is a war we can't win and we need to avoid it at all costs. To do otherwise when Russia is threatening NO ONE is an act of treason clear and simple.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
our best strategy to "defeat" Russia is to get oil down to about 38$ per barrel.

That would put them in areal bind. Oil is probably actually worth about 40 to 45$ on the world stage right now.

Oil producers are still producing more oil than the world can handle, with around 1.5 million barrels per day in excess capacity. That glut will grow much bigger if Iran can be convinced to drop their nuke program.

If we could come to some sort of deal with iran, Russia would be seriously crippled and oil should drop another 5$. At that point we begin to have domestic issues with oil jobs in the USA, but if we don't, Russia will have more potency on the world stage. Nobody wins outright in most of these scenarios. But we actually have allot more common needs with Iran right now ( mid-east Sunni terrorists in Syria, Yemen and Iraq) than we do with Russia.

World politics can get very friggin strange... We'd have been better off int ehlong run forgiving Sadam for Kuwait and buying him back into the program than creating the power vacuum that will be in Iraq for the forseeable future...

I volunteered into the navy when we had hostages in Iran expecting to go there, so I realise how strange it sounds indicating that Iran could become an ally of any kind .
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
Sorry to tell you, you are wrong... again.. But here goes.

Our best strategy is to not incite "world scale" violence by threatening Russia.

We (=our gubment/CIA) incited the original violence/uprising in Ukraine in an effort to unseat the then current government.

We continue to this day to further every moment of child killing violence in that country. We are doing this for two reasons.

A- we get Russia to fire the "first shot"
B- We finally install our "missile shield" into the last open spot. (This is a long standing goal.. You know damned well I'm right.)

Again, our best strategy is to not fight Russia at all but to allow our people to enjoy each other on this planet. They're the same as us, I assure you. They're deeply patriotic. They adore freedom... They're funny as chit.. If you take the time to talk to them.
 
Posted by buckstalker on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:


Again, our best strategy is to not fight Russia at all but to allow our people to enjoy each other on this planet. They're the same as us, I assure you. They're deeply patriotic. They adore freedom... They're funny as chit.. If you take the time to talk to them.

Ding...ding...ding...we have a winner here folks!!!
My sentiments exactly RD
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
the problem with "world peace" is that the aliens will come and ask us to enter the federation. Sheeesh, then we might actually not have to use money any more, and education would be free... we can't have people getting free college tuition, that's unamerican... [Roll Eyes] i mean how are you going to maintain order if people don't have too much debt?
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
The only way we would fight Russia is if we were forced to. To enter into a shooting war with Russia would be a lot for the American people to swallow.

As far as there tech. goes Russia claims and stats leave a lot to be desired. The best example of this is with the mig 25 fox bat after we got a hold of one and tested it the claims weren't true.
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
posted by relentless

Again, our best strategy is to not fight Russia at all but to allow our people to enjoy each other on this planet. They're the same as us, I assure you. They're deeply patriotic. They adore freedom... They're funny as chit.. If you take the time to talk to them.
--------------------------------------------------

The best course is always peace.
 
Posted by a surfer on :
 
Gotta say...an interesting group of threads you guys have going on here... [Smile]

Hope all are well!

Happy Easter.
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
The only way we would fight Russia is if we were forced to. To enter into a shooting war with Russia would be a lot for the American people to swallow.

As far as there tech. goes Russia claims and stats leave a lot to be desired. The best example of this is with the mig 25 fox bat after we got a hold of one and tested it the claims weren't true.

The first statement is not quite true Ray. We are currently actively engaged in trying to get Russia to fire the first shot in Ukraine. We tried in Syria but when they didn't we backed down.

For whatever idiotic reason we are desperate to get into a scrap with Russia. It's not Bammy, it's not the Bush's or Clinton's... It's some driving decades long strategy our government has.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by a surfer:
Gotta say...an interesting group of threads you guys have going on here... [Smile]

Hope all are well!

Happy Easter.

great to hear from you surfer...
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
Poster mocking Mitt Romney over his view of Russia being a major problem and Democrats mocking him.


 -
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
posted by rlentless


The first statement is not quite true Ray. We are currently actively engaged in trying to get Russia to fire the first shot in Ukraine. We tried in Syria but when they didn't we backed down.
----------------------------------------------------

I don't know rent, if the American elite decided to push the Russians out of the Ukraine I am sure it would grow into to some thing big soon that would require a draft in the USA. That is when you would see a big peace movement start in America. Just like during viet nam.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
maybe "they" just want to ramp up drone production?

boots on the ground at Russia's welcome mat seems obscene to me.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
there is another motivation for all of this sabre rattling. As i understand it, Ed Snowden is still in Russia and has been granted residency there until sometime in 2017.
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
there is another motivation for all of this sabre rattling. As i understand it, Ed Snowden is still in Russia and has been granted residency there until sometime in 2017.

lol I seriously doubt our foreign policy is based around Snowden.
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
posted by rlentless


The first statement is not quite true Ray. We are currently actively engaged in trying to get Russia to fire the first shot in Ukraine. We tried in Syria but when they didn't we backed down.
----------------------------------------------------

I don't know rent, if the American elite decided to push the Russians out of the Ukraine I am sure it would grow into to some thing big soon that would require a draft in the USA. That is when you would see a big peace movement start in America. Just like during viet nam.

I agree about the huge peace movement. We aren't trying to force them out of Ukraine.. We're trying to draw them in. So far it hasn't worked. Putin has shown remarkable restraint.
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
so true I am assuming that the Russians do finally enter in the Ukraine IMHO its only a matter of time.

Its a matter of historical record how the Russians fight they start out small and end up with over kill and numbers that amaze the mind.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
there is another motivation for all of this sabre rattling. As i understand it, Ed Snowden is still in Russia and has been granted residency there until sometime in 2017.

lol I seriously doubt our foreign policy is based around Snowden.
sabre rattling is not policy. snowden pissed alot of people off. that just ratchets up the dialogue. nobody starts wars intending for them to get out of control, but the ones that become wars do get out of control, and it's usually bad judgement in posturing ( sabre rattling). I remember arguing with people about the cost of invading Iraq back in '03- i beelive the nummber the warpigs kept throwing out was 86 billion dollars... i had a very hard time not punching a few people over that stupid claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGPD0ZBiMs0
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
William Binney retired from the NSA about 6 weeks after 9-11.

he was fed up- he saw what the intel comunity was doing with 9-11.

he's given quite a few interviews. one of the most poignant things he has had to say was regarding his area of expertise (technical analysis of data).

he basically said that you can give five people the same captured signals and get five different meanings from the same peice of data.

this is actually taught at a basic level in the kindergarten game of telephone or Chinese whispers.

peopel hear what ehy want to hear and peopel frequently don't even know why they are doing things.

It is quite possible that the Ukriane thing has already gotten out of hand because of people in the US power structure pissed off over snowden.

in other words, you think the CIA incited the Ukraine revolution, but you don't why they did it. You have to look at the individuals that make these decisions to understand why they do what they do... diverting natural gas flow away from the Eurozone? that's as good a reason as any, but we really aren't set up to replace the flow and make moeny off it-- shipping LNG to the Euro???
Sending it across Turkey isn't really feasible right now, but it could become feasible. Nah, i see personalities screwing up in this mess. angry people trying to impose their own personal will on things that they prolly should not be messing with.... snowden is as good a reason for this mess to have gone out of control as any IMO....
 
Posted by NickEatsALot on :
 
The way I see it, even today Russia has a major problem with feeding itself. Much of their food alone is imported. Recently the Russian government was caught feeding some of their internal security troops dog food, in an effort to "save money".

I think even in a conventional war on Russian territory, the US could simply win a war of attrition. The US could also resupply on a much larger scale than Russia could.

Also, Russia would not have the US to fall back on for food supplies and trucks, as they did in World War II.

Look up Operation Bagration. It was the Russian version of DDay which took place on June 22, 1944. 1.7 million Russian soldiers, ALL of which were able to ride in trucks on the front lines, while the Germans mainly marched on foot. The US provided the USSR with 220,000 trucks for that one operation ALONE. Which allowed virtually ALL Red Army soldiers to have transportation rather than march on foot.

In anycase, how does this apply today? The US still has a supreme manufacturing capability if we ever needed to rely on it. Our troops in a conventional war with Russia would not starve, nor would they run out of ammunition/supplies as often as the Russian Army would.

Just my view.

Nick
 
Posted by raybond on :
 
Yes dinner time in the Russian Army, Whatever you can catch is what you can eat.
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
William Binney retired from the NSA about 6 weeks after 9-11.

he was fed up- he saw what the intel comunity was doing with 9-11.

he's given quite a few interviews. one of the most poignant things he has had to say was regarding his area of expertise (technical analysis of data).

he basically said that you can give five people the same captured signals and get five different meanings from the same peice of data.

this is actually taught at a basic level in the kindergarten game of telephone or Chinese whispers.

peopel hear what ehy want to hear and peopel frequently don't even know why they are doing things.

It is quite possible that the Ukriane thing has already gotten out of hand because of people in the US power structure pissed off over snowden.

in other words, you think the CIA incited the Ukraine revolution, but you don't why they did it. You have to look at the individuals that make these decisions to understand why they do what they do... diverting natural gas flow away from the Eurozone? that's as good a reason as any, but we really aren't set up to replace the flow and make moeny off it-- shipping LNG to the Euro???
Sending it across Turkey isn't really feasible right now, but it could become feasible. Nah, i see personalities screwing up in this mess. angry people trying to impose their own personal will on things that they prolly should not be messing with.... snowden is as good a reason for this mess to have gone out of control as any IMO....

Wow, where to start...

The notion that Snowden leaked anything we didn't already know as fact a decade earlier?
That the US would be willing to instigate a global war because of it?

OK, let's look at it from your perspective. Let's whack ourselves in the head with a hammer in the hopes of forgetting that Ukraine is a decades old stand out in the implementation of the missile shield which affords us first strike capability.. Hurts.. Yeah My head hurts too. Shockingly I still haven't forgotten such a basic and widely known fact.

Well crap, Glass, I tried to think slow enough to believe in your perception but even mild head trauma did not allow it.

I have a thought!

Let's pull head from ass and see the world as it is.

Novel and untested.. I know.

Let's give it a shot anyways.

Go back years on this forum and recall me telling you the cold war never ended.

Ukraine is about first strike capability, pure and simple.

We instigated it with the Euromaiden NAZIS. The leaked cables and emails are all over the net for those with the courage to read them.
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
Yes dinner time in the Russian Army, Whatever you can catch is what you can eat.

How many in the US are on welfare? Receiving food stamps?
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
all i can say relentless is that some of us KNEW that raiding Iraq would cost in the trillions too, we spoke up but they did it anyway and people cheered for about 4 years. then reality set in.


where you see competence and malevolence? I see pathetic human frailty, waste, fraud abuse and sheer stupidity. I'm not even anti-war, i'm anti-stupidity.

You don't really beleieve we instigated the Ukrainian revolution and expected this blowback do you?

I'm not the one who said we started it, that's your claim. I am not unwilling to consider that possibility because i've been around too many bad decisions for one life already... if i knew what n know now in 1969? I might not have beleived we were watching an actual landing on TV... on the other hand? i also know a few good people that do get things done, they just aren't allowed to do much anymore...
if you'd seen the liars and cheats in "director" positions that i have? you'd understand why i assert that this is an op that already went wrong long ago. I've seen people get personal about the dumbest stuff. I've seen 'em make stupid decisions just to be able to check a box in a form. So yeah it wouldn't surprise me at all if some director didn't get his panties in a bucnh and start an dumbass op when the Russkies said they'd keep Snowden safe. I expect they managed to lie enough on the reports to get a 5,000 dollar performance bonus that fiscal year for it too [Big Grin] As i recall? Snowden wanted to go to south america but the US pulled hs passport AFTER he got to Russia, not before. He'd already been on th erun long enough to pull his card but they didn't. I think they thought the Russkies would turn him over and they didn't. Somebody backed out of a deal? prolly. That's how this sabre rattling goes. Personalities are always trying to overplay their hands. In Govt? People rise to the level that their incompetence becomes prominent, and then they just stay there.

and yep i knew most of what Snowden released before he did it, and we discussed alot of it fairly openly here, but i don't think that most people in this country accepted it as truth until the files were dumped. I don't think most people wanted to beleive the "rumors" they were hearing.
how many people knew what keyhole was in the 80's- i did, and i wasn't written in... now we cal it google earth and people play with it online...

what most people still don't know (or want to) is that keyhole maps were programmed into strategic and tactical missiles as the redundant system for GPS.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
"first strike"-

we don't need Ukraine for first strike. we still have the Ohio class subs. they are expected to remain in full operational readiness for at least another 10 years.... nobody has any answer for them in any form other then the hand of God.
 
Posted by Relentless. on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
"first strike"-

we don't need Ukraine for first strike. we still have the Ohio class subs. they are expected to remain in full operational readiness for at least another 10 years.... nobody has any answer for them in any form other then the hand of God.

First strike has always meant the ability to hit first and be secure from the resulting enemy volley.

That is what Ukraine is. It's the one weak link. (Could be more but it's the one we know about) Look back over decades and we have long sought to secure Ukraine and get them into NATO for this reason.

We do agree about the stupidity theory even if we describe it differently.

I can tell you these people have been planing this for many decades. There is a grand plan shrouded in secrecy. For anyone to devise such a plan, that person/persons would need to be the dumbest of the dumb.

There's a difference between clever and smart.

A midnight thief might be clever, but he's a dumbf for being a midnight thief in the first place.
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
there is another motivation for all of this sabre rattling. As i understand it, Ed Snowden is still in Russia and has been granted residency there until sometime in 2017.

Snowden is Neo, and there is a reason you are seeing less and less payphones lol
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
this is supposedly a video of an S-300 launch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FoM5a6v6410#t=32
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
i assume the missile is luanched by a small shaped shaped charge, and the primary fuel burn is supposed to take over once the missile has left the launcher. no primary burn ignition in this dud.

what i find intersting is the way these troops hung around waiting for the primary to finally catch. hang-fire is a ***** when you have a hundred pounds of HE propellant and then there's the war head too... total clusterfrig.
 


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