I dont think it will happen. Obama wont let it happen. Oil prices would go through the roof...worse than we have ever seen.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Moo Moo are you actually saying a current US president will make the right decision concerning global affairs?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Moo Moo are you actually saying a current US president will make the right decision concerning global affairs?
Tough to say, he does not have the best interests of Israel that is obvious. What happens when Iran strikes? Are we going to continue to "reach out with an olive branch"
I dont think we should attack but we need to do something soon. These people are radicals, they are not rational....so trying to be rational with radicals wont get us anywhere.
Posted by glassman on :
this is just more rotgut GOP drama...
from the article:
Russia has been building the Bushehr plant since the mid-1990s but the project was marred by delays, and the issue is hugely sensitive amid Tehran's standoff with the West and Israel over its nuclear ambitions.
that's a long time to strike the plant... why didn't Dubya do it? OH that's right, he lost all credibiltiy with the rest of the world sometime in '04, and it took another year to finally lose it with the majority of Americans and then it took another few years for his base to realise he is such a Socialist that he likes bailouts... sheesh what a load of crap.
i think Obama has Israels back when it counts. i don't think there's anything obvious about Obama not having their back when it counts.
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Moo Moo are you actually saying a current US president will make the right decision concerning global affairs?
Tough to say, he does not have the best interests of Israel that is obvious. What happens when Iran strikes? Are we going to continue to "reach out with an olive branch"
I dont think we should attack but we need to do something soon. These people are radicals, they are not rational....so trying to be rational with radicals wont get us anywhere.
When Iran strikes? Tell me, what country is more likely to attack another based on history? Iran or US? What country has been at war pretty much non stop for the last hundred or so years? What country has military bases on every continent?
Posted by glassman on :
i dunno relentless, The accuracy or completeness of the information is not warranted and is only as reliable as the sources from which it was obtained. It should be understood there is no guarantee that past performance will be indicative of future results. Attackers are cautioned that they may lose all or a portion of their asses in this or any other country shuld they decide to strike.
in nay case? the time to strike was awhile back...
i think it shuld have been done already,
Posted by glassman on :
as a matter of fact? i think it should have been done in 1981 when Unca Ronnie the Magnificent was God... or er i mean President yeah he was President right? and Govt was small, yeah,and we still had liberty that's it...
Posted by Relentless. on :
Why? I'm just not sure what they've done? Is there a list?.. Do we have a list of the things they've done that would warrant us bombing the **** out of them? I guess I didn't get the list.. Tell me there's a list.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.:
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Moo Moo are you actually saying a current US president will make the right decision concerning global affairs?
Tough to say, he does not have the best interests of Israel that is obvious. What happens when Iran strikes? Are we going to continue to "reach out with an olive branch"
I dont think we should attack but we need to do something soon. These people are radicals, they are not rational....so trying to be rational with radicals wont get us anywhere.
When Iran strikes? Tell me, what country is more likely to attack another based on history? Iran or US? What country has been at war pretty much non stop for the last hundred or so years? What country has military bases on every continent?
Well considering that the region of Iran/Persia has a few thousand years on the U.S. then history shouldn't be your argument.
You are so swift to criticize this country, as if we extend pacifism the world would embrace us. Relentless, this country is not like any other. They stone people to death in Iran, there are "rehabilitation" camps in China, labor/death camps in North Korea, genocide in Africa, Islamic insurgents in the southern Philippines, peaceful Tibetans being killed, narcos in Columbia, Islamic rebels in Thailand, the list goes on and on.
The most war devastated continent is Africa hands down. Barbarism on a scale you probably havent even read on.
Like I said, I dont think attacking Iran right now is a good idea. We need to do something though. They have openly threatened to annihilate Israel and they are getting the tools to do it. You need to read up on the return of the 12th Imam and just how radical this government is. I would strongly support some sort of insurgency from within. Im sure Mossad is on that right right now anyway, but we are running out of time.
What is so ignorant by those who are defending the Iranian government is that they do not take into consideration the very real threat of Iran pulling it off. What is worse is I could say something like "I dont think attacking Iran is a good idea" and you go and post a response insinuating that I posted I want to go to war with Iran....just so you can make your argument. Its so weak and diminished on your end, I wonder if you can ever really step it up and be logical instead of slanderous.
Posted by glassman on :
pulling it off.
hmmmmm.... i really want to add something to that, but i guess i better just leave it alone
lists? they overthrew OUR Dictator man, that's enough for me... we spent alot of money putting the Shah in charge over there... he was a good dude...
besides, how is it going to look if we let them have their own nukes?
Posted by Relentless. on :
I simply asked you a simple question MooMoo.. I made this one real easy in the hopes that you'd answer it instead of spending hours at a time typing what amounts to side stepping babble.
Lol.. Everything from China to Africa but not once did you even meander towards answering my question..
You act as though I am directly threatening you when I am simple asking you to support your assertion with even the slightest shred of logic or understanding.
I'm not threatening you in any way.. Challenging?.. Perhaps.. But in a real happy warm loving way... Breathe.
Yes their current leader has suggested they are waiting for the 12th Imam.. Yes they appear to be gathering whatever weaponry they can. It sure does look like they are preparing for a fight.
Why would that be? Is it even remotely possible that they feel threatened? Would it be the two fleets of American warships floating just a hair off their shore? Would it be the four Israeli subs lingering in the same area for the first time? Could it be the American and Israeli forces massing on their northern border? Surely they can't feel threatened at all by American wars in the two countries that sit on either side?
I'm just saying that maybe.. just maybe we can step back and check for another side to the story..
We must at all times assume our government is lying to us.. The founders of this nation would implore us to do so by their teachings...
We must look around us to search for our own answers. There has never been a time like now for us to do so.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
So I really need to know...what would YOU do about Iran? Hmmm?
Posted by Relentless. on :
Answer my question and I'll tell you exactly what I would do about Iran.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
What question would that be? You always go on about me answering some question you have instead of answering mine, but you never clearly state the question most of the time. It takes you a whole paragraph to ask me one thing.
What is the question....in one sentence please.
Posted by Relentless. on :
That is some astoundingly rock steady focus you have there MooMoo.
The question was in regards to your comment about when Iran attacks. I asked, humbly, Based on historical data who is more likely to attack another nation? Iran or the US?
You have done everything but pull your dress over your head in a comical endeavor to avoid any question Bill O'Riely hasn't penned onto a flash card for you.
I even made this one a blindingly easy one to answer.. All you need is a coin with two distinctively different sides and a willing and able flick ready thumb.
I know everyone is betting against you.. But I believe in you MooMoo... You can do this. By the power of Greyskull.
Posted by glassman on :
give him an answer cash, i want to know how he would deal with Iran...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: That is some astoundingly rock steady focus you have there MooMoo.
The question was in regards to your comment about when Iran attacks. I asked, humbly, Based on historical data who is more likely to attack another nation? Iran or the US?
You have done everything but pull your dress over your head in a comical endeavor to avoid any question Bill O'Riely hasn't penned onto a flash card for you.
I even made this one a blindingly easy one to answer.. All you need is a coin with two distinctively different sides and a willing and able flick ready thumb.
I know everyone is betting against you.. But I believe in you MooMoo... You can do this. By the power of Greyskull.
Answer: US
again you take a whole paragraph to ask one question. You speak of ME side stepping and side showing...my goodness.
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: give him an answer cash, i want to know how he would deal with Iran...
Again I don't know what they've done? I've been out most of the day so maybe I missed the list?
I can't imagine anything would need to be done until there is proof they have done anything wrong on a global scale.
Contained in this list should not be the fact they are seeking weapons we and many other countries already have.. That just wouldn't be even remotely logical to include something like that.
The list should not include their adoration of pointless internal laws with seemingly unfair punishments.. It would be quite the feat for us to persecute a country for having laws and imprisoning or killing people for offences no more wacky than our own.
On the contrary, the list should contain their most recent offences against other countries. Now before you get started we will need to define the word "recent".. Recent is to mean anything within the last five years.. It would be just cheap of us to try and punish them for something long forgotten... That just wouldn't do.
I will be waiting eagerly for that damning list. Until that time my answer will be that we have no ability nor need to take any action against Iran.
On a side note:
MooMoo, I am just so proud of you I don't have the words to appropriately praise you on this first step you've taken towards your teens.. Kudos, job.. done.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Relentless, your argument would make a great case for a prisoner convicted of murder 20 years ago, sentenced to life, up for parole, and we say "well he hasnt done anything lately so why are we trying to restrain him from society?"
They would love you on parole boards.
Posted by glassman on :
i think it's a shame that the Govt of Iran is so screwed up.
I think it's also a given that the Iranian Govt would attack Israel if they thought they could do it successfully and without reprisals...
I also think it's in the worlds best interest that we not have more nuclear warheads lying around...
to that end? there's nobody on the planet that really beleives they aren't trying to build a nuke weapon program and not get caught till it's done...
If Israel takes their program out? I think we'll back Israel in deeds, if not words... In other owords? We may make some statements saying what a shame it is etc, but we will not do anything to stop Israel from ending the Iranian nuke program......
i'm wondering why it has not already been done....
price of oil? terror cells already in place around the world? yes and yes...
Posted by Relentless. on :
MooMoo, let the grown ups talk for a minute.
Glass,
None of what you said equals a military strike being legitimate. Seeking nukes is really something we can't very well wage a war over.. now can we. Having a wacky government would place us at a similar moral disadvantage... Considering all the considerables.
I'm all for actually talking about this in real terms?.. It's about the oil? No? If not then what is it about?
They have done nothing.. Nothing at all wrong.. They have not attacked us or anyone. The only threats actually issued by them were of a clearly defensive nature.. Can't very well bomb the **** out of them for that..
What's left?
Oil? It has to be the oil.
Now what kind of country would we be if we went waltzing all over the globe, killing millions in the name of conquest?
Worse yet, what kind of people would blindly endorse such actions?
Posted by glassman on :
so, you don't see nukular perlifferashun as a threat to your kids?
there is actually quite a bit of evidence that they participate in terrorism against Israel and elsewhere around the world...
they openly say that ISRAEL SHOULD BE DESTROYED. That alone IMO is enough to justify keepng them out of the nukular game,and Israel is perfectly within it's rights as a Sovereign nation to accept those words as a statement of intent of war, and to take action accordingly. Couching his words in Religious terms does not make Amdinejad less accountable for his words.
i am more concerned about terrorists getting nukes thru Iran than i ever was at the hieght of the "scare campaign" by The Neo-Cons over Sadam.... Sadam was secular, he hated terrorists because they represented a threat to his stable Dictatorial power. The current Iranian Govt on the other hand was born of Terrorism and does practice terrorism against Israel now.
have you ever read any of the reports on why we have such harsh sanctions against them already?
i don't beleive i have suggested that we have screwed up by not bombing them already, i have said i don't know why we haven't....
i have no doubt that they intend to become a nukular weapon power, and i also expect they are the country most likely to supply nukes to terrorist with intent...
Seeking nukes is really something we can't very well wage a war over.. now can we.
actaully this is where we disagree, i do think we can wage war over it and i think we should under most circumstances. In the end? survival really is about making sure you "stay on top"
Posted by Relentless. on :
Proliferation?.. Not really my meaning. I don't see us as morally capable of deciding another country can or can not have weapons we already have.. Weapons their more aggressive neighbors already have. I can't see how we can decide that this one country who has attacked no one can not have these weapons. And that's just deciding.. There is even less moral high ground for us to wage war.. killing who knows how many of their citizens and our soldiers for what? The only threat here is us.. We are the ones who are attacking nations.. We are being threatened by no one. If I see three guys standing together and I smack the **** out of the two outside ones, I can't very well blame the guy in the middle for clenching his fists now can I? And if I did then it would mean that I was either a truly evil person or a raging moron.
I'm not at all meaning to say that we need a nuke on every corner..
The scare campaign against Iraq was conducted by the same people now wanting war with Iran... What makes you believe them now when you did not before?
Posted by glassman on :
I don't see us as morally capable of deciding another country can or can not have weapons we already have.
this is exactly why i hate Bush so much.
tell me truthfully, would you even be asking me this if Bush hadn't sold US a line of crap to go take out Sadam? That was his personal venture adn we all know it.
I can't see how we can decide that this one country who has attacked no one
actaully they attacked US soil when they took the hostages, and these are still the same people in charge over there.
We are being threatened by no one.
as in you nad your family? or teh US? Or we as in the US and Israel?
what is a threat? i actually have listened to and read Ahmadinejads words and i am not imagining the threats i heard.
The scare campaign against Iraq was conducted by the same people now wanting war with Iran... What makes you believe them now when you did not before?
uh, the words of Amadinejad himself...
Posted by glassman on :
Questions About Ahmadinejad's Famous Quote
Apr 3 2009, 12:35 PM ET
October, 2005: "Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine... I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world. But we must be aware of tricks."
as far as i'm concerned? this guy asked to be wiped off the map himself and we should oblige him.
Posted by glassman on :
July, 2006: "Nations in the region will be more furious every day. It won't take long before the wrath of the people turns into a terrible explosion that will wipe the Zionist entity off the map...The basic problem in the Islamic world is the existence of the Zionist regime, and the Islamic world and the region must mobilize to remove this problem. It is a usurper that our enemies made and imposed on the Muslim world, a regime that prevented the progress of the region's nations, a regime that all Muslims must join hands in isolating worldwide."
Iranian President Ahmadinejad
this guy is begging for it... and there's mor relentless, lots more...
now some peopl might say these are "just" words and words can't hurt...
but nukes? they hurt.
look what he's "prophesying":
It won't take long before the wrath of the people turns into a terrible explosion that will wipe the Zionist entity off the map..
i don't NEED anything else to say take his toys and break 'em, do as little damage as possible, avoid collateral damage as much as is humanly possible...
if somebody was threatening me personally like this? i'd not wait either...
Posted by glassman on :
August, 2006
"Our position on the Middle East is clear. We want the root of tensions to be removed. During these sixty years what was the root of massacres, crimes and conflicts?...The solution is clear and nothing has changed."
October, 2006: "This regime (Israel) will be gone, definitely..."You (the Western powers) should know that any government that stands by the Zionist regime from now on will not see any result but the hatred of the people...The wrath of the region's people is boiling... You should not complain that we did not give a warning. We are saying this explicitly now..."
warning? what part of this is not clear to you relentless?
Posted by glassman on :
June, 2007: ''God willing, in the near future we will witness the destruction of the corrupt occupier regime..."
January, 2008: "I advise you to abandon the filthy Zionist entity which has reached the end of the line... It has lost its reason to be and will sooner or later fall. The ones who still support the criminal Zionists should know that the occupiers' days are numbered."
i can fill pages with this crap... he's telling US he intends to nuke them- he even says that he thinks nukes are a gift from Allah....
don't tell me i'm being duped by the conspiracists relentless, this guy is speaking plain as day...
i would no tsit around and take this crap off anybody..
the only question in my mind is why Israel is still waiting? something else is at play and htis ain't about false flags....
We believe that atomic energy is a blessing given by God,”
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad quote
“Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the Islamic countries due to their need.”
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad quote
it's actually textbook suicide by cop behaviour with a martyrdom chaser
Posted by glassman on :
the only good reason not to act pre-mptively is that Ahmadinejad is just one man. His govt does not SEEM to represent the people, and he may, i repeat MAY, not even represent the real rulers of Iran...
that does not change the fact that the rulers of Iran (the Clerics) are also behind building Iran into a nuclear power... we don't seem to have evidence of weapons, however we KNOW that they are building the full capability to produce them. We also know that they are begging US to take the facilities out.
taking them out would make fighting the rest of the war on terror more difficult.
Posted by Relentless. on :
So we go to war over words? I could just as easily post as much if not more threats issued by Israel.. They have been quite vociferous in this argument.
Words is all it takes to cause a war.. another friggen war?
I was hoping the list contained actual acts of war... Again, within the five year limit. We can't go to war with them now for hostages they took more than thirty friggen years ago.. It is not logical.
Clearly the reason for this war is oil. The intent is to do the same thing we did in Iraq. We will bomb the **** out of them and then engage in a quagmire so as to keep the vast oil reserves right where they are. This will result in explosive profits for the western friendly oil companies. It will kill what's left of the economy.. but oh well, they're about to hit the reset button on that anyways.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Glass, the war on terror is a myth.. Just like the war on climate change. One must always remember that Bin Laden is left handed... Left handed.
What we are seeing now has been on a chalk board for a very long time.
What is more logical? 19 cave dwelling nutjobs hate our freedoms? A government obviously bent on supreme control hates our freedoms?
The reason given for 9/11 was that "They" hate our freedoms.
I humbly suggest that one merely needs to re-aim the word "They" to find the culprit.
Hell even the FBI hasn't charged Bin Laden with masterminding 9/11... No evidence they said.
Posted by glassman on :
I could just as easily post as much if not more threats issued by Israel..
OK, lemme see, they must be by the sitting president. Call me an Israel lover if you will but i missed the rhetoric somehow Posted by glassman on :
Glass, the war on terror is a myth.. Just like the war on climate change. One must always remember that Bin Laden is left handed... Left handed.
i am willing to consider the possibility that the Neo-cons have rigged the game.
I've looked and looked and looked again. I can't find the key to that puzzle. I see plenty of hints and clues, but no "smoking gun"
Regardless of who's done it, we are in war. Could it have been to make the price of oil 80$ instead of 15$? sure... that's most likely. Too many wierd things happened with oil in the last decade.
but Amadinejad is sittting on plenty of that 80$ oil and he's at best imbalanced. It would be a shame for good people to get collected in his madness... but madness cannot be tolerated when it has nuke capability. simple enough for me. This sin't even about economic principles like we disgreed withe ht Russkies over, this is Religious Fanaticism mixed in with racial hatred.
Life is hard, and most Americans are able to avoid that whole concept for most of their lives...
as to climate? again i know different from your claim. i read the paper with the tree ring hockey stick when it came out... and i saw that they used tree rings and chuckled... didn't change my understanding of what's going on. We have to change as soon as possible and every day we do not spend money to develop the next sytem(s) to replace carbon based energy is one more day lost. That research and development is expensive, and waiting around for it to be profitable is not a solution. The cost of not doing it is much higher than any cost of doing it.
big oil doesn't want competition.
Posted by raybond on :
Relentless, your argument would make a great case for a prisoner convicted of murder 20 years ago, sentenced to life, up for parole, and we say "well he hasnt done anything lately so why are we trying to restrain him from society?"
Cash do not get into an area that you know nothing about. There are no books that can explain what you are talking about. After a while you will know in your guts who will make and who won't. And that is how someone like me made it to where I am it was on merit and results not a formal education.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by raybond: Relentless, your argument would make a great case for a prisoner convicted of murder 20 years ago, sentenced to life, up for parole, and we say "well he hasnt done anything lately so why are we trying to restrain him from society?"
Cash do not get into an area that you know nothing about. There are no books that can explain what you are talking about. After a while you will know in your guts who will make and who won't. And that is how someone like me made it to where I am it was on merit and results not a formal education.
Nobody really knows "where you are" ray, so lets not go exalting what you feel to be personal enlightenment when there is no data to support it.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Glass,
So by your logic the world should have acted pre-emptively on the US when Dubya was prez?
You eagerly agree he was a nutjob.. He was in charge of the button.. So the entire planet should have sanctioned us and then bombed the **** out of us when he was prez? Noooo?
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: June, 2007: ''God willing, in the near future we will witness the destruction of the corrupt occupier regime..."
January, 2008: "I advise you to abandon the filthy Zionist entity which has reached the end of the line... It has lost its reason to be and will sooner or later fall. The ones who still support the criminal Zionists should know that the occupiers' days are numbered."
i can fill pages with this crap... he's telling US he intends to nuke them- he even says that he thinks nukes are a gift from Allah....
don't tell me i'm being duped by the conspiracists relentless, this guy is speaking plain as day...
i would no tsit around and take this crap off anybody..
the only question in my mind is why Israel is still waiting? something else is at play and htis ain't about false flags....
We believe that atomic energy is a blessing given by God,”
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad quote
“Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the Islamic countries due to their need.”
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad quote
it's actually textbook suicide by cop behaviour with a martyrdom chaser
First of all most of what you posted was very very far from direct threats.. Advice that one needs to change one's ways or fail is hardly an offensive threat.. I won't fill a page with threats made by Israel.. Simply a google search link with much much more than idle threats.. Real posturing and preparation for a preemptive attack maybe.. but not one idle threat.
So by your logic the world should have acted pre-emptively on the US when Dubya was prez?
You eagerly agree he was a nutjob.. He was in charge of the button.. So the entire planet should have sanctioned us and then bombed the **** out of us when he was prez? Noooo?
actually? there wasn't anybody to do it or Bush would not have done what he done..
Posted by glassman on :
First of all most of what you posted was very very far from direct threats..
reread them if you don't see it. it's not hard to see if you read it with an open mind.
Posted by glassman on :
I won't fill a page with threats made by Israel.. Simply a google search link with much much more than idle threats.. Real posturing and preparation for a preemptive attack maybe.. but not one idle threat.
top return of your seqarchlist is from the world socialist website. LOL...
Bush lied or passed on lies, so now Iran is taking advantage of his BS... Bush hurt this country pretty bad, but, as i've stated here for years, Iran is working on nukular weapon program and it is in no ones best interest that they get it.
Posted by Relentless. on :
None of that gives us the right to attack them. We can't just decide someone leading a country is a wackjob and then bomb them... Where's the line?
If some other country or group of countries bombed us while Dubya was in office you would be calling for us to declare war on them..
Your logic here is flawed..
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: None of that gives us the right to attack them. We can't just decide someone leading a country is a wackjob and then bomb them... Where's the line?
If some other country or group of countries bombed us while Dubya was in office you would be calling for us to declare war on them..
Your logic here is flawed..
no it's not logic. you are questioning my morals...
it's sad isn't it? the proof will be in the bomb, just like when N Korea lit theirs...
you don't like Il much do you? why is it that Ahamdinejad is so close to your heart?
Bush played right into his hand. I cannot fix that, but i can look at the situation and formulate an opinion on this and it is my opinion that when Israel strikes Irans weapons program we will support them in deeds if not words.
i am not relying on "bad intel" i am listening directly to what the man has to say, and quite frankly? If you and your kids lived in Israel? You would hear what i hear too...
Posted by Relentless. on :
Nope, you're missing my point. I don't care about Iran's leader... I care about the morality of this nation and where it's government is leading us.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Nope, you're missing my point. I don't care about Iran's leader... I care about the morality of this nation and where it's government is leading us.
no i'm not missing your point at all...
i think that you may recall i began seriously questioning the iraq war long before it was popular to do so...
so tell me, in your opinion? if Sadam had WMD would we have been justiifed in attacking him?
Posted by Relentless. on :
Yup I remember you were right, then. I am right, this time.
There were sanctions in place as well as resolutions that expressly forbid Iraq from producing or aquiring WMD's. We had inspectors on the ground who found nothing. If they had found something there would have been no war as the UN would have enforced tougher resolutions. All of that was negotiated as a part of the cease fire from Bush1.
None of those legalities exist for dealing with Iran. Nor has Iran shown any aggression towards it's neighbors. Where as we have... Israel has. Many other nations.. have. Yet we do not make known plans to invade and decimate any of them... Why? Do they sit atop a vast ocean of oil? No.
Oh... Maybe that's why.
Posted by T e x on :
From the where the sun now stands, we should not have boots on the ground unless demanded by the direct necessity for defense of US citizens or for that of our immediate neighbors.
In other words, frankly, to save energy (capital, etc) instead of waiting for "barbarians at the gate" (metaphorical).
Case 1: Speaking of "things I posted," I said pretty early on that given the misguided attack on Iraq, we should've toppled the statues then pulled back, way back into the desert. From that vantage point, we could monitor the situation and attack by remote-control, as necessary. After awhile, peeps would figure out to get the phuk away from troublemakers.
Case 2: We need to stand down as world cop and stand up as World's Best IntelMaster, at which we now suck.
The factions who want to fight us? They should learn that the trade-off is immense. As it stands? Not so much...
Why? Because we're too willing to wade into a bar fight, in neighborhoods we don't know.
Posted by glassman on :
All good points Tex.
I don't like being the "cop" of the world. i am not pretending we are standing on some moral high ground.
Relentless?
you are not posting from a factual basis. I sense some sort of blind spot in you on this one.
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Yup I remember you were right, then. I am right, this time.
There were sanctions in place as well as resolutions that expressly forbid Iraq from producing or aquiring WMD's. We had inspectors on the ground who found nothing. If they had found something there would have been no war as the UN would have enforced tougher resolutions. All of that was negotiated as a part of the cease fire from Bush1.
None of those legalities exist for dealing with Iran. Nor has Iran shown any aggression towards it's neighbors. Where as we have... Israel has. Many other nations.. have. Yet we do not make known plans to invade and decimate any of them... Why? Do they sit atop a vast ocean of oil? No.
Oh... Maybe that's why.
these claims are just incorrect. Iran is building a full nuke program, they sponsor trerrorsim. You say Israel attacks its neighbors. Well you don't really seem o know Israels history very much.
IMO< the only thing Israel is doing and has done that they should not be doing is settling on land that is apparently not theirs. For the most part, they have defended themselves so well that some people want to think they are attackers.
Israel has been attacked countless times and has defended themselves. These attacks you claim they have made were all justified. IMO Israel has shown great restraint in not doing much more damage to their enemies than they have.
The last big engagement? Israel went into Lebanon after having troops kidnapped at a border checkpoint. It was not pretty and the media likes to pick favorites and they painted a bad picture of Israel.
well if US Marines were kidnapped at US Embassy somewhere around the world tomorrow? I would expect Obama to go get those Marines back with force. That is assuming the kidnappers were sponsored by the state they are hiding in. When you don't respond with force? People begin to think they can do what they want to you. It really isn't about being "morally better" it's about maintaining your right to exist among the people that hate you. It doesn't matter why they hate you when the question is one of existence. You can work on that later
of course that would neve happen right?
oh wait a minute. Thats exaclty what Iran did to US. And Hezbollah? They are the ones that took the Israeli troops a the checkpoint on the Lebanon border.
Do you have an idea what Hezbolah is? It is a terrorist arm of the Iranian Government.
What is it hat you are "right about" here exaclty relentless? are you saying that Iran has no intention of building nuke weps or that they have the right to do so. Or are you saying they aren't building them and they are a peaceloving nation that we should not be cocnerned about?
I have no problem kicking their ass into the ground after the hostage crisis even if it is 30 years later.
Posted by glassman on :
this is Israels attacks for you relentless, htis story has been repeated over and over again:
Lebanon: Hezbollah's way Analysis: Lebanon's southern frontier with Israel is the most volatile border in the Middle East today.
By Mohamad Bazzi - GlobalPost Published: August 7, 2010 10:16 ET in Middle East
BEIRUT, Lebanon — Everywhere in the Middle East these days, people are muttering about the possibility of war: between Israel and Hamas, or Israel and Hezbollah, or Israel and Syria, or among bickering Lebanese factions. Or maybe this war will involve everyone.
What might set off such a catastrophic conflict? Maybe it starts with Israeli soldiers trying to trim a tree.
That’s exactly what happened on Tuesday, when Lebanese troops fired on Israeli forces who were pruning a tree along the border between the two countries. That set off a series of skirmishes that killed two Lebanese soldiers, a Lebanese journalist and an Israeli commander.
In July 2006, Hezbollah abducted two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid, setting off a 34-day war that crippled Lebanon’s infrastructure, displaced one million people, and killed more than 1,200 Lebanese, the majority of them civilians. Since that conflict ended, both sides have been preparing for a new round. Hezbollah leaders boast that the group now has an even larger and more potent cache of missiles than it did four years ago. Israeli officials, who have also escalated their war rhetoric in recent months, estimate Hezbollah’s arsenal at between 40,000 and 80,000 rockets.
read the rest. Israel is only guilty of securing its right to exist in an openly hostile environment.
Posted by glassman on :
tick tick tick....
Posted by Relentless. on :
Never specified only Israel as an aggressive neighbor.. I said neighbors.. Much of your basis is atop the belief we are in a war on terror and we have the right to determine who is or is not a "terrorist". That basis is not one rooted in reality. Our rulers were searching for an undefeatable global foe we could wage war against in perpetuity. They made one up by using an old CIA creation... Al Queda.
Truth is we have no right to go running around the world deciding who is good or bad. That sort of thing leads to a mighty fall when the world we are pillaging gets tired of it.
If Israel is so damned worried about Iran, tell them to use a couple of the 300 nukes we gave them and do it themselves... Why is it again Israel doesn't have to declare their weaponry or submit to inspections?
Fuzzy on that one.
Posted by glassman on :
so, now you are telling me that Iran doesn't sponsor terrorism? That it's a big scam?
BTW? I'm still waiting to hear about an Israeli President calling for the destruction of any other countries.
And? the fact that Israel has nukes and hasn't used them offensively would indicate that we were correct in trusting them to have them.
Israel has used measured force over and over again to respond to being "messed with". In every instance of aggression on their part, you can find the cause and it's always been something like what happened earlier this month. Media People forget those incident real fast and like to show all the damage Israel inflicts on their attackers. The collateral damage is what the terrorists want, for PR.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Now this is going to make some of you sad
quote:WASHINGTON — The Obama administration, citing evidence of continued troubles inside Iran’s nuclear program, has persuaded Israel that it would take roughly a year — and perhaps longer — for Iran to complete what one senior official called a “dash” for a nuclear weapon, according to American officials.
I'm sorry folks.. no slaughtering of innocent people today.. again Posted by Relentless. on :
I'm guessing from that story, they have done some polling and found America's heart just isn't in it. Not to worry though.. a "galvanizing event" will fix that... Word has it Atlanta is next to get hit.. Something about it being a major hub for the internet they so despise.
Posted by glassman on :
i hope they have the secret cocacola formula safe, we wouldn't want to lose that... it's only written down in one place and it's stored in Atlanta...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Now this is going to make some of you sad
quote:WASHINGTON — The Obama administration, citing evidence of continued troubles inside Iran’s nuclear program, has persuaded Israel that it would take roughly a year — and perhaps longer — for Iran to complete what one senior official called a “dash” for a nuclear weapon, according to American officials.
I'm sorry folks.. no slaughtering of innocent people today.. again
what do you mean? happens all the time by stoning often based on mere suspicion.
Posted by Relentless. on :
Happens here too... all the time. People here are electrocuted all the time for nothing.. Killed for merely not stopping..
Don't be so quick to judge.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Happens here too... all the time. People here are electrocuted all the time for nothing.. Killed for merely not stopping..
Don't be so quick to judge.
You are a real Bill Ayers type arent you. People get electrocuted all the time for nothing. ALL THE TIME? I think what you were trying to say was that people sentenced to death may have been wrongfully sentenced. I will not argue that. It is inevitable.
Killed for merely not stopping...
Ok, what on earth are you talking about. Not stopping? Stopping what? Car? Stabbing someone?
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Happens here too... all the time. People here are electrocuted all the time for nothing.. Killed for merely not stopping..
Don't be so quick to judge.
You are a real Bill Ayers type arent you. People get electrocuted all the time for nothing. ALL THE TIME? I think what you were trying to say was that people sentenced to death may have been wrongfully sentenced. I will not argue that. It is inevitable.
Killed for merely not stopping...
Ok, what on earth are you talking about. Not stopping? Stopping what? Car? Stabbing someone?
quite distinguished company.. Biography/History
William Ayers, Distinguished Professor of Education and Senior University Scholar at the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC), and founder of both the Small Schools Workshop and the Center for Youth and Society, teaches courses in interpretive and qualitative research, urban school change, and teaching and the modern predicament. A graduate of the University of Michigan, the Bank Street College of Education, Bennington College, and Teachers College, Columbia University, Ayers has written extensively about social justice, democracy and education, the cultural contexts of schooling, and teaching as an essentially intellectual, ethical, and political enterprise. He is currently the vice-president of the curriculum division of the American Educational Research Association, and a member of the executive committee of the UIC Faculty Senate.
Ayers’ articles have appeared in many journals including the Harvard Educational Review, the Journal of Teacher Education, Teachers College Record, Rethinking Schools, The Nation, Educational Leadership, the New York Times and the Cambridge Journal of Education. His books include, with Bernardine Dohrn Race Course: Against White Supremacy (Third World Press 2008), Teaching Toward Freedom: Moral Commitment and Ethical Action in the Classroom (Beacon Press, 2004), A Kind and Just Parent: The Children of Juvenile Court (Beacon Press, 1997), Fugitive Days: A Memoir (Beacon Press, 2001, 2008), On the Side of the Child: Summerhill Revisited (Teachers College Press, 2003), Teaching the Personal and the Political: Essays on Hope and Justice (Teachers College Press, 2004), The Good Preschool Teacher: Six Teachers Reflect on Their Lives, (Teachers College Press, 1989), and To Teach: The Journey of a Teacher, (Teachers College Press, 1993) which was named Book of the Year in 1993 by Kappa Delta Pi, and won the Witten Award for Distinguished Work in Biography and Autobiography in 1995. Edited books include: To Become a Teacher: Making a Difference in Children’s Lives (Teachers College Press, 1995); with Janet Miller, A Light in Dark Times: Maxine Greene and the Unfinished Conversation (Teachers College Press, 1997); with Pat Ford, City Kids/City Teachers: Reports from the Front Row (The New Press, 1996,2008); with Jean Ann Hunt and Therese Quinn, Teaching for Social Justice: A Democracy and Education Reader (The New Press and Teachers College Press, 1998); with Mike Klonsky and Gabrielle Lyon, A Simple Justice: The Challenge of Small Schools (Teachers College Press, 2000); with Rick Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, Zero Tolerance: Resisting the Drive for Punishment (The New Press, 2001); with Bernardine Dohrn and Jeff Jones, Sing a Battle Song: The Revolutionary Poetry, Statements, and Communiqués of the Weather Underground 1970 – 1974 (Seven Stories Press, 2006); with Gloria Ladson-Billings, Pedro Noguera, and Gregory Michie, City Kids/City Schools: More Reports From the Front Row ( The New Press, 2008); and with Therese Quinn and David Stovall, the Handbook of Social Justice in Education (Routledge, 2008). He lives in Hyde Park, Chicago with Bernardine Dohrn.
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Happens here too... all the time. People here are electrocuted all the time for nothing.. Killed for merely not stopping..
Don't be so quick to judge.
You are a real Bill Ayers type arent you. People get electrocuted all the time for nothing. ALL THE TIME? I think what you were trying to say was that people sentenced to death may have been wrongfully sentenced. I will not argue that. It is inevitable.
Killed for merely not stopping...
Ok, what on earth are you talking about. Not stopping? Stopping what? Car? Stabbing someone?
Electrocuted by taser all the time.. Last one I saw that was a real zinger was a bed ridden grand mother was tasered in her bed for assuming an offensive posture.. This stuff just can't be made up.
Next time some government enforcer demands you stop your car.. don't.. The result is they will kill you.
The United States has more people in prison than any other country on the planet while it has less people than most.. Are we just naturally bad people? No. Government is the problem..
Posted by glassman on :
you know that a large percentage of the people in jail are only in jail cuz they are poor right?
a guy that can afford a 10,000$ attroney fee gets probation while the guy on the public defenders list gets jail...
happens every day....
Rush Limbugger is the perfect example.
take them and non-violent drug offenders out of th esytem and we get to a more normal level of prison population...
make drug crimes less "criminal" in general and alot of the violence associated with drug crime goes away too... desperate people do desperate things...
Posted by Relentless. on :
Well yes that is a good point, but it doesn't detract from the fact that our legal system is now aimed at imprisoning as many people as possible. Does anyone even know the actual number of laws on the books anymore?.. I don't has to be a huge number.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Well yes that is a good point, but it doesn't detract from the fact that our legal system is now aimed at imprisoning as many people as possible. Does anyone even know the actual number of laws on the books anymore?.. I don't has to be a huge number.
Good points Rent and glass. Then you also have to add to the equation that alot of prisons are now run by corporations. And as we all know...corporations are all about the money.
Posted by T e x on :
(CNN) -- Iran unveiled the first long-range military drone manufactured in the country on Sunday, state media reported.
The unmanned aerial vehicle is capable of carrying out bombing missions against ground targets and flying long distances at a high speed, Press TV said.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad attended the unveiling of the drone, dubbed the "Karrar," in a ceremony marking Iran's Defense Industry Day.
In February, Iran inaugurated the production line for two types of drones with bombing and reconnaissance capabilities, the semiofficial Fars news agency reported.
Iran has manufactured its own tanks, armored personnel carriers, missiles and fighter planes since 1992, according to Press TV.
The country successfully tested a radar-evading drone with bombing capabilities in June 2009, Press TV said.
In March 2009, U.S. military officials said U.S. fighter jets in Iraq shot down an unmanned Iranian spy drone aircraft.
At the time, most major state-run media outlets in Iran did not carry news of any incident involving an Iranian drone and Iraq's national security adviser declined to comment.
Unmanned vehicles have become a staple of modern combat.
U.S. military officials have said remotely-controlled drones minimize risk and allow troops to spy on and attack enemy combatants.
Ahead of the drone's unveiling, Iran's defense minister said the country's military planned to reveal a project of "great importance" on Sunday, according to state-run Press TV.
"Iran's defense capability has reached a point which does not need any aid from other countries," Defense Minister Brig. Gen. Ahmad Vahidi said, according to the semiofficial Iranian Students News Agency.
It is not clear whether the unveiling of the long-range drone was the announcement he was referring to.
Vahidi's announcement Saturday came as Iran began fueling its first nuclear energy plant in the southern city of Bushehr, the nation's state media reported.
Press TV said the effort will help the country create nuclear-generated electricity.
But some Western nations have questioned whether the nuclear fuel will be used solely for electricity, suggesting that Iran would eventually try to enrich uranium on its own, providing material for nuclear weapons.
The United States has questioned Iran's motives in continuing to enrich uranium within its borders.
"Russia is providing the fuel, and taking the fuel back out," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said earlier this month.
"It, quite clearly, I think, underscores that Iran does not need its own enrichment capability if its intentions, as it states, are for a peaceful nuclear program," he said.
Iran has maintained all along that the site will produce energy, but the United States and some other international observers remain unconvinced.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, speaking to Russian reporters in the Black Sea resort of Sochi on Wednesday, brushed off Western concerns about the Bushehr facility, calling it "the most important anchor holding Iran to the nonproliferation regime," according to the Russian news agency RIA-Novosti.
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