I just watched an interesting character from Carnegie Mellon make some strong arguments against it... he actually made sense...
his basic argument is that we shouldn't buy the mortgages since nobody else wants to either...
he said that people will (eventually) buy them and they'll pay alot less than we will be paying.
so? are we getting ripped off? and if so by who exactly?
[ September 23, 2008, 20:33: Message edited by: glassman ]
Posted by Propertymanager on :
YES, WE'RE BEING RIPPED OFF!!! By these big investment banks and their good friends Bernanke and Paulson. Golman Sachs and the others are BUSINESSES and should not be bailed out. They made foolish investments and they MUST pay the price!
I think Mark Haines on CNBC had an EXCELLENT suggestion. If we're going to bail out anyone (I say no), then bypass the Wall Street Stooges and use the bailout money to provide liquidity for business loans to "main street", which I interpreted to mean businesses that can meet normal underwriting guidelines. At any rate, these Wall Street firms should be allowed to fail!
Posted by glassman on :
Ok, 700 billion$... i'm figuring the average home loan is about 250,000$...
that's 2.8 million loans they are buying, if they pay 100%....
7.5 million people — almost 15 percent of American homeowners with a mortgage — who are spending half of their income or more on housing costs, according to 2007 data released Tuesday by the U.S. Census Bureau. That is up from nearly 7.1 million the year before. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h4j_nTWGqFRwX4TkhkBe0tmSKQNgD93CIGFG0
this money isn't going to be enough...
they'll be back in three months asking for the same amount or more again
Traditionally, the government and most lenders consider a homeowner spending 30 percent or more of their income on housing costs to be financially burdened. But that definition now covers almost 38 percent of American homeowners with a mortgage — 19 million of them.
More than 4 million homeowners were at least one month behind on their loans at the end of June, and almost 500,000 had started the foreclosure process, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association. Posted by glassman on :
Golman Sachs and the others are BUSINESSES and should not be bailed out. They made foolish investments and they MUST pay the price!
Ok PM, i don't think too many people disagree about that...
here's the problem...
my (and your) grocery store uses a line of credit to keep the shelves stocked..
they prolly get it from one of the banks being bailed out..
what happens if they can no longer keep food on the shelves?
should we dump all the losers and make a new Govt bank for them to go to directly? and if so? how is that different?
that is (more or less) how China works...
Posted by glassman on :
this is a crime...
and these people should be BKRPT:
And yet, the deal will not help Dolly Hanna, 51, and her husband, who bought five homes in the San Francisco area over the past 20 years, and were enjoying life during the housing boom by renting them out.
But her husband's overtime at his mechanic's job was cut, and the Hannas now find themselves overextended at a loss of $15,000 per month and trying two sell two of the homes.
With four children, Hanna had been a stay-at-home mom, but Monday she started a job in real estate. They are seeking a renter for two upstairs bedrooms in their primary residence for $1,200.
Getting a loan during the boom was easy, Hanna knows. Too easy.
"All you had to was massage the information enough to fit it into their round hole, and they gave us a mortgage," Hanna said.
how on earth did they think they were going to make this work...
and why are they suddenly losing money? this is just stupid.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
Yah, it don't make sense. If it's the primary residence then I can see how they can't make mortgage payments but they are rentals. How difficult is it to find tenants?
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: YES, WE'RE BEING RIPPED OFF!!! By these big investment banks and their good friends Bernanke and Paulson. Golman Sachs and the others are BUSINESSES and should not be bailed out. They made foolish investments and they MUST pay the price!
I think Mark Haines on CNBC had an EXCELLENT suggestion. If we're going to bail out anyone (I say no), then bypass the Wall Street Stooges and use the bailout money to provide liquidity for business loans to "main street", which I interpreted to mean businesses that can meet normal underwriting guidelines. At any rate, these Wall Street firms should be allowed to fail!
I hate agreeing with him... Posted by a surfer on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: Yah, it don't make sense. If it's the primary residence then I can see how they can't make mortgage payments but they are rentals. How difficult is it to find tenants?
There are rental signs all over the place here.
The rents have dropped along with home prices too.
In a market like San Fran that was most likely 50% overpriced they have to be struggling.
BUT it was their decision to buy all these rentals so they have to pay the price...
Just like the banks that loaned them the money should.
Only primary residences should remedied by assistance IMO.
Posted by glassman on :
Only primary residences should remedied by assistance IMO.
and that should be done so that the profits are not subsidized...
i cannot beleive how many people are at 50% of their income...
1/3 of take home has been a standard for decades...
Posted by Happy Valley on :
Anderson Cooper getting ready to do a piece on it...
Newshour put up the transcripts from the show... the guy i was talking about is:
Allan Meltzer is a professor of political economy and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University and a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
JEFFREY BROWN: Allan Meltzer, same question. Â Is this a good idea?
ALLAN MELTZER, Carnegie Mellon University: It's a terrible idea. It's undemocratic. It's bad economic policy, and it's bad social policy. And it has a very little chance of solving the problem in a meaningful way.
JEFFREY BROWN: Well, flesh that out a bit. Is it that we are not in a crisis? Or is it that government intervention of this kind is not the right answer?
ALLAN MELTZER: Well, I've listened to governments tell me for 40 years that there was a crisis and the world was going to fall apart if we didn't do this or that. But there have been a few cases where they weren't able to do that.
One was the commercial paper crisis in 1970. There have been several others. The world did not fall apart. Last week, we had Lehman Brothers went into bankruptcy. Within three days, most of the assets were sold.
We had AIG turn down three offers to buy the company because they thought they would get a better deal from the government. It turned out they didn't get the better deal from the government. Now the stockholders suddenly woke up and said -- the major stockholders said, "We'd like to buy the company."
Well, that's what I think we need to do. We need to get the government's hand out of this, and let's see whether we can't get a market solution.
The market people caused this problem. They ought to be the ones that pay the cost of having it cleaned up.
-------------- ALLAN MELTZER: Yes. I don't want to join a debate about different ways of picking the public's pocket. I think, if they're going to do something -- and I don't think that we really need to do anything. I've heard these stories over and over for 40 years. You know, maybe there will be a crisis.
But despite all the talk, Main Street is not doing so badly. And the fact is that they've been predicting disaster since January. It hasn't happened.
And if they're going to do something, then what they ought to do is make loans, which the financial institutions have to repay with interest. And if you think -- that's an idea which the Chileans have used in a bigger crisis than this for them in 1982, and it worked for them.
People paid back the loans. They weren't allowed to pay dividends until they repaid the loans. They weren't allowed to take bonuses until they repaid the loans. I think that's the way -- if we're going to do this, then that's the way we should do it.
Posted by a surfer on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Only primary residences should remedied by assistance IMO.
and that should be done so that the profits are not subsidized...
i cannot beleive how many people are at 50% of their income...
1/3 of take home has been a standard for decades...
Problem is Glass that the bailout money won't discern which is investment and which is primary.
Each bank should be converting some employees to be case managers to handle so many per person.
This has to be dealt with in an individualistic way to reach main street.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
I would let businesses and homeowners all fail. If people paid too much for a house and can't afford it, then they should be foreclosed on. THEY made the choice to be reckless with their money and it's not my responsibility to bail them out.
As I understand it, the problem is liquidity to keep business moving and people employed. The key to succeeding with this bailout is to provide liquidity for normal business operations (for profitable, responsible businesses) and to let all the overleveraged, bad apples go out of business. BTW, I know that business loans haven't completely dried up, because National City called me last night in an effort to loan me money. I asked the guy if he was CRAZY. Who wants to borrow more money in the middle of a DEPRESSION?
I strongly recommend that everyone on this forum contact your congressman again today. I contacted my senators and my congressional delegation yesterday and am doing it again today. The squeaky wheel gets oiled and the citizens of this country need to squeak LOUD and CLEAR (and often), unless we want these big Wall Street firms bailed out.
Posted by bdgee on :
I don'tknow that the "bail out" will do any good. That bothers me.
What bothers me even more is that the same bunch that insisted we couldn't hesitate granting absolute power to dubya to quell an al qaeda stronghold, stocked with many many WMDs already aimed and waiting to be launched at our shores, that never existed (neither the al qaeda or the WMDs in Iraq).
Then, it was that same bunch that claimed an over whelming need to pass, without appropriate time for consideration, the Patriot Act, which turns out to have been nothing but our equivalent to the German legislature granting near absolute power to the fascist in 1932.
The Constitution can be restored and saved only so many times!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:I don'tknow that the "bail out" will do any good. That bothers me.
Yes, it will do some good. Goldman Sachs and all the other rich fat cats will get a lot of our money to maintain their lifestyles. Will it help you or me? NO! All it will do is punish us with higher inflation and more debt. JUST SAY NO TO THE BAILOUTS FOR THE WALL STREET CROWD!
Posted by bond006 on :
Of course the bail out will do no good for most of us. It will not help our home values,It will not increase our tax base on real estate it will not save our retirement funds. And many other thigs that I can't see or think of'
What it can do is take the boys that caused all the problems and instead of giving them a jail cell we will put them in a new special club the 700 billion dollar club.Plus more at a moments notice
As we post the FBI is in the beginings of a wall street investigation on some of these folks for fraud I say we wait until any one of them get any money from public funds.
And then if we fund, we call the shots on how it will be used. Our our accounts are insured we can hold out , there is a market for loans even now some one is loaning money to qualifed folks.
I wonder if old King George is going to use his system of lights every day to scare us remember the old green ,amber,and red lights we got to see every day on T.V. so simpleton George II could inform his dim witted cult followers on the safety of the day. Look foward to being amused again my friends.
Posted by glassman on :
As we post the FBI is in the beginings of a wall street investigation on some of these folks for fraud I say we wait until any one of them get any money from public funds.
unfortunately? my perception of this investigation is that they'll find a few sacrificial lambs to offer up and the majority of the people responsible will walk...
Posted by a surfer on :
he's got some good points, but they lack deep understanding of the motives behind keeping interest rates low...
one of the biggest reasons interest rates have been kept low is to protect Wall St.
if interest rates get high? people take the less risk avenue and buy them...
that takes money from Wall St, lowers market Caps and opens co's up to leveraged buy-outs... (see the '80's)
the other huge reason to keep them low is that Bush needed them low to finance his deficit spending ...
To now say we should add more regulation, or in any way give more control to the government over market pricing, is asking for more of what got us into this mess. Re-read the above, and understand that the government's control over CPI, gave them control over interest rates, which gave them control over whether individuals and bankers would mutually abuse debt for housing.
this does not argue that regulation was the problem...
it argues that LYING was is the problem..
that said? did you see where he's from?
Shelby Moore, III Davao City, Mindanao, Philippines
Posted by glassman on :
OK, re-reading, good article, even tho i said he's full of it..
here's his flawed assertion IMO
This undeniable manipulation of reality (i.e. propoganda) caused institutional money managers to buy government bonds at lower interest rates, because such fund managers are required in their prospectus to invest their clients' money in bonds as long as the CPI is lower than the bonds' interest rate.
i absolutely agree that CPI has been manipulated..
but i see the reasons as very different as stated above..
there's other reason for them to do it too..
COLA- cost of living allownces go up in govt/military pay...
people in the private sector ask for bigger raises... higher pay does balance out the cost side of infaltion equation, allowing infaltion to go up...
the main reason that "official" inflation has been relatively low is that they lie about the CPI and pay doesn't go up..
i just don't see the motive as being to force people to buy bonds..
Posted by a surfer on :
Just another perspective glass.
I like hearing them all.
Posted by glassman on :
like i said, i mispoke on saying he's full of it..
he's not wrong, he's just looking at it from his personal specialty..
i get mad when i see infaltion numbers lower than we know they are...
sheesh. my grocery bills have tripled since '00...
gasoline, propane(5X) too.
Posted by bdgee on :
We all wonder about what the effects or the effectiveness of a bail out might be (except a few that already knew what opinion to have a decade back and are sticking to their absolute free market dogma....they don't think, just react and regurgitate).
For the most part, we normal people are provided only with what the various tv news crews provide us about it. Have any of you considered whether or not that information may be biased because influential news reporters have marriage or other family ties to some of the principles in the system?
Personally, I wonder, were I married to Allen Greenspan, would I be neutral? COULD I be neutral? Would I slant what I said about things? And, just as important, would I know it if I did?
I don't think there is provision to recuse tv reporters with personal ties to news makers. Maybe there should be?
Posted by T e x on :
Buffet took a $5 billion position in Goldman...
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: Buffet took a $5 billion position in Goldman...
Though I doubt it, that $5 billion position may be just a move to get his mouth onto some of that federal teat they are planning to hand out. Let's not forget that $5 billion to him is about like $5 to you and me.
Posted by bond006 on :
Close Window Bush may give speech to nation on economic woes Wednesday, September 24, 2008 WASHINGTON - President Bush is thinking of giving a speech to the nation on the ailing financial markets, the White House said Wednesday, amid persistent criticism of a $700 billion bailout plan and the Federal Reserve chairman's warning that economic growth depends on it.
Ben Bernanke, the Fed chief, told Congress' Joint Economic Committee that the Federal Reserve will "act as needed" to minimize disruptions to business life. His appearance came a day after he and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson heard withering criticism of the Bush administration's proposed $700 billion bailout plan and not long after Bush said he was confident an agreement would be reached soon on a "robust" plan to relieve the stress.
Second-guessing of the bailout plan continued on Capitol Hill. And on Wall Street, the financial markets remained tense, with stocks fluctuating, following investor Warren Buffett's decision to invest $5 billion in Goldman Sachs Group Inc. The credit markets showed added strain as investors await news about the government's plan to rescue banks from crippling debt.
Meanwhile, Bush's chief spokeswoman, Dana Perino, revealed that the president is considering a formal speech to the nation - his first such talk in over a year - and said the country is at risk of a "calamity" without bold action to calm down the markets and soothe nervous Americans.
Amid a raft of statements of anger and doubt about the bailout plan, Sen. Lindsey Graham said Wednesday that "it's not my job to just echo people being mad. I'm going to choose the bad choice over the catastrophic choice."
Speaking to South Carolina reporters, the Republican said, "We don't have the luxury of kicking this can down the road like we did with immigration or social security and dealing with it another day hoping somebody braver than us will come along and have courage that we can't muster to deal with immigration or social security. This is on our watch."
Reflecting the urgency of the situation, White House officials revealed that Bush had taken Air Force One back to Washington from a meeting of the U.N. General Assembly in New York and said he was canceling a planned fundraising trip to Florida to help the Republican Party. Bush had canceled a similar trip last week.
Perino said Bush has been trying to address the public's many questions and concerns and was weighing whether, when and where to have such a speech.
Pleading for Congress to act quickly, Bernanke said: "Choking up of credit is like taking the lifeblood away from the economy."
Asked whether the country would plunge into a depression if lawmakers do not enact a bill, Bernanke said he didn't want to make such a comparison. But he also said there would be "certainly very negative implications," including likely losses on retirement funds and other investments held by millions of ordinary Americans.
Bernanke and Paulson made the case for the plan in a closed-door meeting with House Republicans Wednesday morning, where lawmakers voiced new doubts about the bailout and said their constituents were overwhelmingly opposed to it.
"The American people are furious about the fact that Congress is being asked to put up some $700 billion to help stem off this economic crisis," said Rep. John A. Boehner of Ohio, the GOP leader. Still, he said "Congress has a responsibility to act," and added that he hoped to strike a bipartisan deal that could pass within days.
Bush has an uphill battle in selling the rescue, however, even to members of his own party.
Asked during their session with Paulson how many of them backed the plan, just four Republican hands went up, said Rep. Thomas M. Davis III, R-Va.
"It's a tough sell to most of our members," Davis said. "It's a terrible plan, but I haven't heard anything better."
Republicans and Democrats both say Bush has lost credibility on Capitol Hill, particularly in cases where he argues there will be dire consequences if Congress doesn't act.
"They sold the war, they sold the stimulus package and some other things. It's the 'wolf at the door' " argument, Davis said.
"It's hard being trusting" of Bush's bailout plan, said Democratic Rep. Luis V. Gutierrez, D-Ill, who said the administration's full-court press to sell it reminded him of the one the White House mounted before the Iraq war.
"You feel like you're always getting hoodwinked, because they say the consequences if you don't do it is a complete demise and collapse of the system," he said.
Executives whose companies get a piece of the assistance would have their pay packages strictly limited under proposals that broadly supported by both Republicans and Democrats.
The administration was resisting that move as it scrambled to overcome widespread misgivings and swiftly push through its plan to rescue tottering financial firms by buying up their rotten assets.
Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, has proposed adding substantial congressional oversight over the bailout and a requirement that the government make an effort to renegotiate as many of the mortgages it purchases in the rescue as possible to help strapped borrowers stay in their homes. Paulson was said to be willing to accept those revisions.
Frank also has been pushing to allow the government to buy equity - rather than just bad debt - in companies it helps so taxpayers can benefit from future profits. That idea is also gaining bipartisan support, but Paulson argues it would hamstring the very companies the government is trying to help.
He also is strongly opposed to another key Democratic priority: letting judges rewrite mortgages to lower bankrupt homeowners' monthly payments. Democrats view that measure as the heaviest lift and the most likely to be dropped as part of a final deal.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
Posted by bond006 on :
Bush should take his tinker toys and go back home.
Tell himself he did a good job of looting public funds forget about his last great attempt and go home.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:While in the city with his running mate, Sarah Palin, Republican presidential nominee John McCain said that he wants to delay Friday's presidential debate with Barack Obama to focus on the economic crisis.
In a statement, McCain said that he will stop campaigning after addressing former President Bill Clinton's Global Initiative session tomorrow, and return to Washington, D.C.
Bush is out of this one, he can make all the speeches he wants. This bailout is on the Dumocrat congress and from what I've seen their lookin to exit stage left.
Actually the Republican congressional members aren't looking very smart either.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Bush is out of this one, he can make all the speeches he wants. This bailout is on the Dumocrat congress and from what I've seen their lookin to exit stage left.
Actually the Republican congressional members aren't looking very smart either.
actaully? the bailout is Bush and Paulson...
IF the Dems rubber stamp it? then shame on them too...
my BET is that Delay and Lott and Frist would have rubber stamped it buti can't say for sure..
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x:
quote:While in the city with his running mate, Sarah Palin, Republican presidential nominee John McCain said that he wants to delay Friday's presidential debate with Barack Obama to focus on the economic crisis.
In a statement, McCain said that he will stop campaigning after addressing former President Bill Clinton's Global Initiative session tomorrow, and return to Washington, D.C.
and CNBC was reporting Obama suggested it first...
this is beginning to look like another circling of the wagons to me...
why don't we just cancel the election until the crisis is over? in 2040? Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Bush is out of this one, he can make all the speeches he wants. This bailout is on the Dumocrat congress and from what I've seen their lookin to exit stage left.
Actually the Republican congressional members aren't looking very smart either.
actaully? the bailout is Bush and Paulson...
IF the Dems rubber stamp it? then shame on them too...
my BET is that Delay and Lott and Frist would have rubber stamped it buti can't say for sure..
Well Bush shouldn't matter, it seems every elected offical is running from him. Maybe their gonna vote for this crap and if it goes sour blame Bush , goes good they'll all take a pay raise.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by T e x:
quote:While in the city with his running mate, Sarah Palin, Republican presidential nominee John McCain said that he wants to delay Friday's presidential debate with Barack Obama to focus on the economic crisis.
In a statement, McCain said that he will stop campaigning after addressing former President Bill Clinton's Global Initiative session tomorrow, and return to Washington, D.C.
and CNBC was reporting Obama suggested it first...
this is beginning to look like another circling of the wagons to me...
why don't we just cancel the election until the crisis is over? in 2040?
Same old games! Make it look like they give a dam.
I guess where never gonna find out what these clowns think. We'll just vote on good looks.
Posted by glassman on :
is Obama going to go along with the campaign suspension? or is he going to call Mccain a quitter?
this is totally insane.
Posted by thinkmoney on :
What I know is that the Bush club, etc that get us in the mess will not be able or qualified to get us out. To paraphrase Einstein, the mind that creates the problems is unable to solve them. I do think there are alternatives and a way out.
At the core is JOBS for Americans. I think we should not bailout. Let them feel the pain. However, jobs will help homeowners not foreclose, etc...
Use the money for infrastructure and solar energy research and development. Only let firms have tax breaks that employ americans--- I would help homeowners re-ngotiate the ARMS - that is it - Use money to build america and make economy strong - with a strong economy this issue will lessen and let those *******s get jail time and re-payment to the american public - let the fbi probe continue -
I think we are not looking outside the box - Pumping 1 trillion will not solve the mess - but a strong economy and criminal charges for those responsible will - with a strong economy other firms will be there to lend , etc....and a lesson learned for the greedy looters -
There may be other alternatives but that is where we should focus - the mind that created this mess will only make the hole deeper at the demise of USA--
Posted by glassman on :
and a lesson learned for the greedy looters -
that's exactly how i see them too TM..
looters..
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: is Obama going to go along with the campaign suspension? or is he going to call Mccain a quitter?
this is totally insane.
good, he is calling for the debate...
and i agree, now is the BEST and most important time for the debates
Posted by T e x on :
Obama for the joint announcement, nonpartisan politics etc, but also FOR keeping the debate cuz whoever's gonna be Prez needs to be able to handle more than one thing at a time...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Oh, I work wih a lady whose son-in-law is asst chief or staff or something --- Anyways, she says McCain is a loose canon - has serious emotional, etc issues due to war -
Geez - I have no idea who the better candidate is - Obama too liberal - McCain too bushy and psychological -
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: is Obama going to go along with the campaign suspension? or is he going to call Mccain a quitter?
this is totally insane.
good, he is calling for the debate...
and i agree, now is the BEST and most important time for the debates
yup...McCain wants to hide among the group of the leaders and NOT have to further expose his lack of grip on the problem...
Posted by bdgee on :
"Oh, I work wih a lady whose son-in-law is asst chief or staff or something --- Anyways, she says McCain is a loose canon - has serious emotional, etc issues due to war -"
It isn't just me that has noted that. Seems to be a constant from people that have more than heard him in speeches and such. Once you get the chance to see him "unhandled" you see serious emotional problems and dangerous attitudes and decisions.
I think he isn't capable of maintaining deportment and objectivity in just normal routine situations.....god forbid what might be the case in a truly international crisis.
Posted by bond006 on :
This is a bunker mentality on McCains part he is truly running.
This country had debates and a election during the civil war also the same for WWII.
Obama was right today for saying the show goes on.
This is the right thing to do for the American people is to let there future leaders tell them what they would do.
If you can't mluti task and do many things at once you should not be president.
Posted by glassman on :
Ole Miss is going to be devastated if the debate is canceled...
they've raised several million$ and they have re-arranged half the campus to get ready...
McCain could lose some serious support if he refuses to show up...
when Lott "retired", Roger Wicker was appointed from the first congressional district (just outside Memphis) to replace him in the Senate...
a (very conservative) Democrat won his seat in a special election and Wicker is now in a real fight to keep his Senate seat...
nobody thought a Dem could win his congressioanl seat, i have a hard time beleiving Obama could win MS, but if McCain doesn't come for this show? alot of his supporters will prolly not show up to vote for him...
Posted by osubucks30 on :
Even if McCain shows I think this "threat" will damage him. I also believe this damage can't be fixed. Cancel a debate that lasts 2 hours??? Lets all go lock ourselves in our homes and watch C-SPAN until this thing passes. I MEAN IF THIS THING DOESN'T GET PASSED BY THE WEEKEND THERE WILL BE NO AMERICA COME MONDAY!!! Give me a break McCain. I thought you had a shot at winning but now I think your chances are zero!!! Your is done!
Posted by bdgee on :
Glass...,
A whole hell of a lot of Mississippi folk that think of themselves as old time southern aristocracy in spirit if not in fact were never going to show up to vote for McCain anyway. Republicans will still win the state on pure racial grounds, though. It's what the republican party has whittled out for itself.
Posted by glassman on :
Bush's speech tonight was nonesense...
he told US nothing other than "Trust Me" and i don't think anybody does anymore...
Posted by a surfer on :
Well as much as we want revenge and to see the CEO's of the banks brought to justice, not passing the bailout is not the way to do it.
It was not just the banks. There were millions of Americans who bit off more than they could handle. Do we prosecute them too??
In 99 we screwed up by letting our lending standards fall to the wayside. Who was in charge then and why was it allowed to happen?
It is more important for us to get back on our feet, look at the past ten years, learn from our mistakes and move on. Then we will at least have the chance to avoid a massive depression.
Posted by glassman on :
i don't know surf...
i have the feeling that these guys have known how bad it is for a long time and are basically extorting US now... they waited until we have few choices...
i guess we have to bail em out, fire all the CEO's and open their books...
but you can bet they've squirreled away alot of dough
Posted by bdgee on :
It will pass, in time, maybe in stages. It is not what I wanted to happen, but the state of American's freedom and well being in days to come require it.
I, like almost everyone, really am P.O.ed over having to bail out those crooks. But I know that they did what they did under a republican philosophy that is clearly a failed gamble of our future, one that they should have realized (and I think did and simply didn't give a damn) they were playing fast and loose with our security and safety.
We won't forget.
Posted by glassman on :
yeah and Fox "News" is spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to blame the Dems...
they were pitiful to watch tonight...
Posted by retiredat49 on :
That's how I see too...
These crooks knew exactly what they were doing all along and kept the ball rolling until we were forced into this so-called "bailout", which IMO is nothing more than extortion...
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: yeah and Fox "News" is spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to blame the Dems...
they were pitiful to watch tonight...
That's alright begee is spending most of his time trying to blame it on republicans, so I guess it balances out.
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: That's how I see too...
These crooks knew exactly what they were doing all along and kept the ball rolling until we were forced into this so-called "bailout", which IMO is nothing more than extortion...
i expect that this 700B, is just the first of a couple...
i have an idea, why don't we just give the 3300$ EA. to US consumers and stimulate the economy again?
they can figure out a way to squeeze it out of US...
i figure they gave US those "stimulus" checks in hopes that we'd remember that when they asked for the whole treasury..
Posted by a surfer on :
Thanks for the link Wally.
I like her.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by a surfer: Thanks for the link Wally.
I like her.
me too...
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: That's how I see too...
These crooks knew exactly what they were doing all along and kept the ball rolling until we were forced into this so-called "bailout", which IMO is nothing more than extortion...
i expect that this 700B, is just the first of a couple...
Yeah...you are more than likely right...
The problem that I see that NOBODY is talking about, is the fact that even WITH the "bailout" (extortion), our economy is not ever going to be healthy again until we get back the good paying jobs that we have lost...
Posted by bdgee on :
Good link.
Kapture is one fine speaker!
Posted by glassman on :
they used to do tar and feathers....
i might be able to come up with enough feathers...
any body know where to get a good deal on a whole lot of tar? Posted by Machiavelli on :
I got to love the bigoted one sided "opinons" of the NY Post and most of it unsubstantiated showing sources and such...:
Considering the price of crude now, it might be prudent to use Gorilla glue instead of tar.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: I got to love the bigoted one sided "opinons" of the NY Post and most of it unsubstantiated showing sources and such...:
i thought the Post was your favorite paper Mach.. Posted by glassman on :
i am wondering if the Dems would vote for the bailout if Bush and Cheney resigned?
huh? wathchall thank? would that do it for Pilosi? it would for me Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: I got to love the bigoted one sided "opinons" of the NY Post and most of it unsubstantiated showing sources and such...:
Well he's reading it so they must be doing something right.
Posted by ohio_trader on :
Ode To The Economy
I NEED A MORTGAGE EVERY ONES IN HAWK MY OLD IS BANK ALL LOCKED UP BERNIE , GREENSPAN BOTH THE SAME PULL THOSE PUPPETS PULL THEIR CHAINS
TLC MEETS BILDEBERGERS SCRAPE THOSE BONES DON’T LEAVE NO HOMES FED IS FIXED BY FOREIGN BACKERS WE ALL DIE WHILE THEIR ALL LAUGHING
ILLUMUNATI THINK THEY SEE ALL THE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE WE DON’T WANT YOUR FASCIST WAYS POUND SOME SALT AND GO AWAY
911S JUST A SHAM ALL DENY, ALL BE DAMNED IF THIS BIG LIE DON’T MEAN A THING COUNT YOUR FREEDOMS 1-2-3
OIL, GAS, GO PUMP YOUR ASS THIS WHOLE LIE IS FULL OF CASH DROP YOUR NICKEL DROP YOUR DIME SOULS SELL EASY WHEN THEY LIE
EVERBODYS HAND IS GETTING ITCHY TRIGGER FINGERS GETTING TWITCHIE WE WANT ALL OF YOU TO KNOW BEFORE WE DIE IS WHEN YOU GO
WE DON’T LIKE YOU THAT’S NO LIE HOPING ALL YOU ****ERS DIE KHARMAS SWEET LIKE ALKA SELTERS’ PLASTERD IN YOUR HELTER SKELTERS
WE DON’T NEED CONSPIRACIES JUST TO PROVE HYPROCIES WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU JUST LIE AND NOW WE HOPE THAT YOU ALL DIE
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: I got to love the bigoted one sided "opinons" of the NY Post and most of it unsubstantiated showing sources and such...:
Yes, it is. I read the tabloid stuff and real crime stories. Once in awhile I read the political stuff and laugh at what they write like when Bill O'Reilly wrote some stories about the Bourne movies being anti american lol Michele Malkin makes me laugh as well as she is so anti immigrant and particularly anti hispanic in her writings. This coming from a Filipina whose parents were immigrants and she has hispanic blood in her like most filipinos do. To me her rantings on such things shows a self hatred for her ancestry...
Go ahead, explore their "opinion" section. Makes PMS look like a child molesting priest who is pious lol
Posted by ohio_trader on :
Its time all REAL Americans to stand up
call all your congressman and senators,call other states congress and senators, call the federal reserve, call the white house- including the secretary of treasure- and tell your friends and family to do the same and don't stop- THEY ARE FEELING ALOT OF HEAT ( if you call you will know)- THE AMERICAN PUBLIC can push them to HELL if we work together
it is time to call these folks to the carpet, tell them you know whats up, tell them they are full of sh**, tell them you are pissed, and done with their BLATANT LYING!
enough is enough, they've pissed off most true americans - let them know how you feel!
Posted by Machiavelli on :
ahhhh i think i figured out who Ohio Trader is... isn't PMS from Ohio as well? ...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by ohio_trader: Its time all REAL Americans to stand up
call all your congressman and senators,call other states congress and senators, call the federal reserve, call the white house- including the secretary of treasure- and tell your friends and family to do the same and don't stop- THEY ARE FEELING ALOT OF HEAT ( if you call you will know)- THE AMERICAN PUBLIC can push them to HELL if we work together
it is time to call these folks to the carpet, tell them you know whats up, tell them they are full of sh**, tell them you are pissed, and done with their BLATANT LYING!
enough is enough, they've pissed off most true americans - let them know how you feel!
i've been doing that for so long they recognise my # on caller ID ...
Posted by ohio_trader on :
Senators
Akaka, Daniel K.- (D - HI) Class I 141 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6361 Web Form: akaka.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home Alexander, Lamar- (R - TN) Class II 455 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4944 Web Form: alexander.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.... Allard, Wayne- (R - CO) Class II 521 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5941 Web Form: allard.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home Barrasso, John- (R - WY) Class I 307 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6441 Web Form: barrasso.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactUs... Baucus, Max- (D - MT) Class II 511 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2651 Web Form: baucus.senate.gov/contact/emailForm.cfm?subj=issue Bayh, Evan- (D - IN) Class III 131 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5623 Web Form: bayh.senate.gov/contact/email/ Bennett, Robert F.- (R - UT) Class III 431 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5444 Web Form: bennett.senate.gov/contact/emailmain.html Biden, Joseph R., Jr.- (D - DE) Class II 201 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5042 Web Form: biden.senate.gov/services/contact/ Bingaman, Jeff- (D - NM) Class I 703 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5521 E-mail: senator_bingaman*bingaman.senate.gov Bond, Christopher S.- (R - MO) Class III 274 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5721 Web Form: bond.senate.gov/contact/contactme.cfm Boxer, Barbara- (D - CA) Class III 112 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3553 Web Form: boxer.senate.gov/contact Brown, Sherrod- (D - OH) Class I 455 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2315 Web Form: brown.senate.gov/contact/ Brownback, Sam- (R - KS) Class III 303 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6521 Web Form: brownback.senate.gov/CMEmailMe.cfm Bunning, Jim- (R - KY) Class III 316 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4343 Web Form: bunning.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Co... Burr, Richard- (R - NC) Class III 217 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3154 Web Form: burr.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home Byrd, Robert C.- (D - WV) Class I 311 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3954 Web Form: byrd.senate.gov/byrd_email.html Cantwell, Maria- (D - WA) Class I 511 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3441 Web Form: cantwell.senate.gov/contact/ Cardin, Benjamin L.- (D - MD) Class I 509 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4524 Web Form: cardin.senate.gov/contact/ Carper, Thomas R.- (D - DE) Class I 513 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2441 Web Form: carper.senate.gov/contact/ Casey, Robert P., Jr.- (D - PA) Class I 383 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6324 Web Form: casey.senate.gov/contact/ Chambliss, Saxby- (R - GA) Class II 416 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3521 Web Form: chambliss.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactU... Clinton, Hillary Rodham- (D - NY) Class I 476 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4451 Web Form: clinton.senate.gov/contact Coburn, Tom- (R - OK) Class III 172 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5754 Web Form: coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactSena... Cochran, Thad- (R - MS) Class II 113 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5054 Web Form: cochran.senate.gov/contact.htm Coleman, Norm- (R - MN) Class II 320 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5641 Web Form: coleman.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Co... Collins, Susan M.- (R - ME) Class II 413 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2523 Web Form: collins.senate.gov/public/continue.cfm?FuseAction=Contact... Conrad, Kent- (D - ND) Class I 530 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2043 Web Form: conrad.senate.gov/contact/webform.cfm Corker, Bob- (R - TN) Class I 185 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3344 Web Form: corker.senate.gov/Contact/index.cfm Cornyn, John- (R - TX) Class II 517 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2934 Web Form: cornyn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Con... Craig, Larry E.- (R - ID) Class II 520 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2752 Web Form: craig.senate.gov/email/ Crapo, Mike- (R - ID) Class III 239 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6142 Web Form: crapo.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm DeMint, Jim- (R - SC) Class III 340 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6121 Web Form: demint.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home Dodd, Christopher J.- (D - CT) Class III 448 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2823 Web Form: dodd.senate.gov/index.php?q=node/3130 Dole, Elizabeth- (R - NC) Class II 555 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6342 Web Form: dole.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactInform... Domenici, Pete V.- (R - NM) Class II 328 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6621 Web Form: domenici.senate.gov/contact/contactform.cfm Dorgan, Byron L.- (D - ND) Class III 322 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2551 E-mail: senator*dorgan.senate.gov Durbin, Richard- (D - IL) Class II 309 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2152 Web Form: durbin.senate.gov/contact.cfm Ensign, John- (R - NV) Class I 119 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6244 Web Form: ensign.senate.gov/forms/email_form.cfm Enzi, Michael B.- (R - WY) Class II 379A RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3424 Web Form: enzi.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactInform... Feingold, Russell D.- (D - WI) Class III 506 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5323 Web Form: feingold.senate.gov/contact_opinion.html Feinstein, Dianne- (D - CA) Class I 331 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3841 Web Form: feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactU... Graham, Lindsey- (R - SC) Class II 290 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5972 Web Form: lgraham.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Em... Grassley, Chuck- (R - IA) Class III 135 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3744 Web Form: grassley.senate.gov/contact.cfm#emailform Gregg, Judd- (R - NH) Class III 393 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3324 Web Form: gregg.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Cont... Hagel, Chuck- (R - NE) Class II 248 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4224 Web Form: hagel.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home Harkin, Tom- (D - IA) Class II 731 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3254 Web Form: harkin.senate.gov/c/ Hatch, Orrin G.- (R - UT) Class I 104 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5251 Web Form: hatch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Offices.Cont... Hutchison, Kay Bailey- (R - TX) Class I 284 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5922 Web Form: hutchison.senate.gov/contact.cfm Inhofe, James M.- (R - OK) Class II 453 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4721 Web Form: inhofe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Con... Inouye, Daniel K.- (D - HI) Class III 722 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3934 Web Form: inouye.senate.gov/abtform.html Isakson, Johnny- (R - GA) Class III 120 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3643 Web Form: isakson.senate.gov/contact.cfm Johnson, Tim- (D - SD) Class II 136 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5842 Web Form: johnson.senate.gov/contact/ Kennedy, Edward M.- (D - MA) Class I 317 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4543 Web Form: kennedy.senate.gov/senator/contact.cfm Kerry, John F.- (D - MA) Class II 304 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2742 Web Form: kerry.senate.gov/v3/contact/email.html Klobuchar, Amy- (D - MN) Class I 302 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3244 Web Form: klobuchar.senate.gov/emailamy.cfm Kohl, Herb- (D - WI) Class I 330 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5653 Web Form: kohl.senate.gov/gen_contact.html Kyl, Jon- (R - AZ) Class I 730 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4521 Web Form: kyl.senate.gov/contact.cfm Landrieu, Mary L.- (D - LA) Class II 724 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5824 Web Form: landrieu.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm Lautenberg, Frank R.- (D - NJ) Class II 324 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3224 Web Form: lautenberg.senate.gov/contact/ Leahy, Patrick J.- (D - VT) Class III 433 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4242 E-mail: senator_leahy*leahy.senate.gov Levin, Carl- (D - MI) Class II 269 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6221 Web Form: levin.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm Lieberman, Joseph I.- (ID - CT) Class I 706 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4041 Web Form: lieberman.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm?regarding=issue Lincoln, Blanche L.- (D - AR) Class III 355 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4843 Web Form: lincoln.senate.gov/webform.html Lugar, Richard G.- (R - IN) Class I 306 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4814 E-mail: senator_lugar*lugar.senate.gov Martinez, Mel- (R - FL) Class III 356 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3041 Web Form: martinez.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactIn... McCain, John- (R - AZ) Class III 241 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2235 Web Form: mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Con... McCaskill, Claire- (D - MO) Class I 717 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6154 Web Form: mccaskill.senate.gov/contact/ McConnell, Mitch- (R - KY) Class II 361-A RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2541 Web Form: mcconnell.senate.gov/contact_form.cfm Menendez, Robert- (D - NJ) Class I 317 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4744 Web Form: menendez.senate.gov/contact/contact.cfm Mikulski, Barbara A.- (D - MD) Class III 503 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4654 Web Form: mikulski.senate.gov/Contact/contact.cfm Murkowski, Lisa- (R - AK) Class III 709 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6665 Web Form: murkowski.senate.gov/contact.cfm Murray, Patty- (D - WA) Class III 173 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2621 Web Form: murray.senate.gov/email/index.cfm Nelson, Bill- (D - FL) Class I 716 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5274 Web Form: billnelson.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm Nelson, E. Benjamin- (D - NE) Class I 720 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6551 Web Form: bennelson.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm Obama, Barack- (D - IL) Class III 713 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2854 Web Form: obama.senate.gov/contact/ Pryor, Mark L.- (D - AR) Class II 255 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2353 Web Form: pryor.senate.gov/contact/ Reed, Jack- (D - RI) Class II 728 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4642 Web Form: reed.senate.gov/contact/contact-share.cfm Reid, Harry- (D - NV) Class III 528 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3542 Web Form: reid.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm Roberts, Pat- (R - KS) Class II 109 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4774 Web Form: roberts.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactInf... Rockefeller, John D., IV- (D - WV) Class II 531 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6472 Web Form: rockefeller.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm Salazar, Ken- (D - CO) Class III 702 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5852 Web Form: salazar.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm Sanders, Bernard- (I - VT) Class I 332 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5141 Web Form: sanders.senate.gov/comments/ Schumer, Charles E.- (D - NY) Class III 313 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6542 Web Form: schumer.senate.gov/SchumerWebsite/contact/webform.cfm Sessions, Jeff- (R - AL) Class II 335 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4124 Web Form: sessions.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Constitue... Shelby, Richard C.- (R - AL) Class III 110 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5744 E-mail: senator*shelby.senate.gov Smith, Gordon H.- (R - OR) Class II 404 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3753 Web Form: gsmith.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home Snowe, Olympia J.- (R - ME) Class I 154 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5344 Web Form: snowe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactSenat... Specter, Arlen- (R - PA) Class III 711 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4254 Web Form: specter.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Co... Stabenow, Debbie- (D - MI) Class I 133 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4822 Web Form: stabenow.senate.gov/email.cfm Stevens, Ted- (R - AK) Class II 522 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3004 Web Form: stevens.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Em... Sununu, John E.- (R - NH) Class II 111 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2841 Web Form: www.sununu.senate.gov/webform.html Tester, Jon- (D - MT) Class I 204 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2644 Web Form: tester.senate.gov/Contact/ Thune, John- (R - SD) Class III 493 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2321 Web Form: thune.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Email Vitter, David- (R - LA) Class III 516 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4623 Web Form: vitter.senate.gov/?module=webformIQV1 Voinovich, George V.- (R - OH) Class III 524 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3353 Web Form: voinovich.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.... Warner, John- (R - VA) Class II 225 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2023 Web Form: warner.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Con... Webb, Jim- (D - VA) Class I 144 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-4024 Web Form: webb.senate.gov/contact/ Whitehouse, Sheldon- (D - RI) Class I 502 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-2921 Web Form: whitehouse.senate.gov/contact/ Wicker, Roger F.- (R - MS) Class I 487 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-6253 Web Form: wicker.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.EMa... Wyden, Ron- (D - OR) Class III 230 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-5244 Web Form: wyden.senate.gov/contact/
Abercrombie, Neil, Hawaii, 1st Ackerman, Gary, New York, 5th Aderholt, Robert, Alabama, 4th Akin, Todd, Missouri, 2nd Alexander, Rodney, Louisiana, 5th Allen, Tom, Maine, 1st Altmire, Jason, Pennsylvania, 4th Andrews, Robert E., New Jersey, 1st Arcuri, Michael A., New York, 24th
B
Baca, Joe, California, 43rd Bachmann, Michele, Minnesota, 6th Bachus, Spencer, Alabama, 6th Baird, Brian, Washington, 3rd Baldwin, Tammy, Wisconsin, 2nd Barrett, J.Gresham, South Carolina, 3rd Barrow, John, Georgia, 12th Bartlett, Roscoe, Maryland, 6th Barton, Joe, Texas, 6th Bean, Melissa L., Illinois, 8th Becerra, Xavier, California, 31st Berkley, Shelley, Nevada, 1st Berman, Howard, California, 28th Berry, Marion, Arkansas, 1st Biggert, Judy, Illinois, 13th Bilbray, Brian P., California, 50th Bilirakis, Gus M., Florida, 9th Bishop, Rob, Utah, 1st Bishop Jr., Sanford D., Georgia, 2nd Bishop, Timothy, New York, 1st Blackburn, Marsha, Tennessee, 7th Blumenauer, Earl, Oregon, 3rd Blunt, Roy, Missouri, 7th Boehner, John A., Ohio, 8th Bonner, Jo, Alabama, 1st Bono, Mary, California, 45th Boozman, John, Arkansas, 3rd Bordallo, Madeleine, Guam Boren, Dan, Oklahoma, 2nd Boswell, Leonard, Iowa, 3rd Boucher, Rick, Virginia, 9th Boustany Jr., Charles W., Louisiana, 7th Boyd, Allen, Florida, 2nd Boyda, Nancy E., Kansas, 2nd Brady, Kevin, Texas, 8th Brady, Robert, Pennsylvania, 1st Braley, Bruce L., Iowa, 1st Broun, Paul C., Georgia, 10th Brown, Corrine, Florida, 3rd Brown, Henry, South Carolina, 1st Brown-Waite, Virginia, Florida, 5th Buchanan, Vern, Florida, 13th Burgess, Michael, Texas, 26th Burton, Dan, Indiana, 5th Butterfield, G.K., North Carolina, 1st Buyer, Steve, Indiana, 4th ^ return to top C
Calvert, Ken, California, 44th Camp, Dave, Michigan, 4th Campbell, John, California, 48th Cannon, Chris, Utah, 3rd Cantor, Eric, Virginia, 7th Capito, Shelley Moore, West Virginia, 2nd Capps, Lois, California, 23rd Capuano, Michael E., Massachusetts, 8th Cardoza, Dennis, California, 18th Carnahan, Russ, Missouri, 3rd Carney, Christopher P., Pennsylvania, 10th Carson, André, Indiana, 7th Carter, John, Texas, 31st Castle, Michael N., Delaware, At Large Castor, Kathy, Florida, 11th Cazayoux, Don, Louisiana, 6th Chabot, Steve, Ohio, 1st Chandler, Ben, Kentucky, 6th Childers, Travis, Mississippi, 1st Christian-Christensen, Donna M., U.S. Virgin Islands Clarke, Yvette D., New York, 11th Clay Jr., William "Lacy", Missouri, 1st Cleaver, Emanuel, Missouri, 5th Clyburn, James E., South Carolina, 6th Coble, Howard, North Carolina, 6th Cohen, Steve, Tennessee, 9th Cole, Tom, Oklahoma, 4th Conaway, K. Michael, Texas, 11th Conyers Jr., John, Michigan, 14th Cooper, Jim, Tennessee, 5th Costa, Jim, California, 20th Costello, Jerry, Illinois, 12th Courtney, Joe, Connecticut, 2nd Cramer, Robert E. "Bud", Alabama, 5th Crenshaw, Ander, Florida, 4th Crowley, Joseph, New York, 7th Cubin, Barbara, Wyoming, At Large Cuellar, Henry, Texas, 28th Culberson, John, Texas, 7th Cummings, Elijah, Maryland, 7th ^ return to top D
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Posted by Propertymanager on :
Yes, Mach, I'm from Ohio as well.
All this blame game is a joke. The FBI is investigating - oops, I mean looking for a few scapegoats. The true criminals are President Bush and President Clinton (especially Bush), who started pushing this "homeownership", social engineering nonsense. They virtually required Freddie and Fannie to loan money to people who clearly should NEVER have been homeowners and were NEVER qualified. Many of these people don't even make good renters, let alone responsible homeowners!
Beyond Clinton and Bush, we've got the leaders at Freddie and Fannie who bought the bogus loans. We've got the idiots at the big investment banks who bought the bogus paper. We've got many in congress who pushed homeownership for their unqualified constituents, and we've got the congressional black caucus who were in bed with Freddie and Fannie pushing loans for their constituents. They're all a bunch of scumbags who have destroyed our country!
Let's let them all fail. Expose the politicians for the morons they are. Let the investment banks fail. Let the homeowners go into foreclosure. Remove ALL the leadership at Freddie and Fannie and provide oversight of these companies.
As Ohio Trader said, KEEP CALLING YOUR CONGRESSMEN! It IS making a difference. I called mine yesterday, today, and I'll call them again tomorrow! Tell them what you think. We can still kill this bailout if enough people call!
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: As Ohio Trader said, KEEP CALLING YOUR CONGRESSMEN! It IS making a difference. I called mine yesterday, today, and I'll call them again tomorrow! Tell them what you think. We can still kill this bailout if enough people call!
I still say PMS and Ohio are one in the same person or related to each other lol
Posted by glassman on :
They virtually required Freddie and Fannie to loan money to people who clearly should NEVER have been homeowners and were NEVER qualified.
comeon PM... they didn't require anything, Bush told 'em to do it in '02 to stimulate the economy so they could collect more taxes so that could help pay for the war...
"...if you own something, you have a vital stake in the future of our country. The more ownership there is in America, the more vitality there is in America, and the more people have a vital stake in the future of this country."
-President George W. Bush, June 17, 2004
Expanding Homeownership. The President believes that homeownership is the cornerstone of America's vibrant communities and benefits individual families by building stability and long-term financial security. In June 2002, President Bush issued America's Homeownership Challenge to the real estate and mortgage finance industries to encourage them to join the effort to close the gap that exists between the homeownership rates of minorities and non-minorities.
the mortgage brokers that did it were paid commissions just like realtors are...
they just wanted a deal, any deal, and they didn't care how they got it..
fannie and freddie ( secondary mortgage market participants) buy the notes from the mortgage originators (brokers)... you should know this from your real estate license class... it's the second week..
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:fannie and freddie buy the notes fromte mortgage originators (brokers)... you should know this from your real estate license class... it's the second week..
In practical terms, it's the same thing. Fannie and Freddie control the lending standards by dictating which loans will be bought on the secondary market. So, they directly control who the money is loaned to and they are providing the money that is loaned to these people, by buying the mortgage.
FYI, I never attended "real estate license class". I am in the rental property business, I am not a real estate agent.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
I agree with you that Bush is primarily responsible for this mess. His "homeownership" initiative is basically the spark for this entire disaster! As I said before, I agree with Bdgee that Bush will go down as the worst president in history, not only for his initiation of this disaster, but for our rapid move toward socialism, with all these bailouts.
Posted by glassman on :
Beyond Clinton and Bush, we've got the leaders at Freddie and Fannie who bought the bogus loans. We've got the idiots at the big investment banks who bought the bogus paper. We've got many in congress who pushed homeownership for their unqualified constituents, and we've got the congressional black caucus who were in bed with Freddie and Fannie pushing loans for their constituents. They're all a bunch of scumbags who have destroyed our country!
it's not a race issue, alot of this mess is not subprime mortgages either...
sure they say it is, but what they don't mention is a little talked about accounting rule change last year that forced the Commercial Banks (brokerages) to stop lying about the value of assets they don't trade: they are called Level Three Assets... they were not "marked to market"; that's a special way of saying priced to sell...
the accountants would assign a price that they "thought was cool" and then borrow money against it...
this has been kept out of the mainstream eye:
Monday, April 21st, 2008
Rising Tide of Level 3 Assets a “Disaster Waiting to Happen”
By Jennifer Yousfi Managing Editor
In the first quarter, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (GS) packed another $27 billion worth of illiquid assets onto its balance sheet - a 39% increase that brought the total to $96 billion.
And Goldman wasn’t alone. Morgan Stanley (MS) reported that these hard-to-value/hard-to-sell assets soared 45%, reaching $32 billion. For Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. (LEH), the first-quarter increase was $500 million, bringing its total to $42.5 billion.
The balance-sheet holdings in question are known as "Level 3" assets. And with the smoke from the subprime-mortgage crisis still hanging over Wall Street like the fallout from a nuclear missile strike, some industry observers are worried that the difficult-to-sell Level 3 assets are little more than a crisis-in-waiting that’s standing in the wings of the U.S. financial-services sector.
this level three stuff is the real problem and the sub-prime problem is reall too, but it's a smoke screen for the BIG LIES, REALY BIG LIES...
Posted by glassman on :
the "level three crisis" was known over a year ago PM...
Merryl was supposed to be the broker that was most conservative in their lies, that's why they were "buyable"...
note the DATE here:
Nov 3, 2007 Level 3 storm about to hit Wall Street By Martin Hutchinson
Goldman Sachs has disclosed its Level 3 assets, two quarters before it would be compelled to do so in the period ending February 29, 2008. Their total was $72 billion, which at first sight looks reasonable because it is only 8% of total assets. However the problem becomes more serious when you realize that $72 billion is twice Goldman's capital of $36 billion. In an extreme situation therefore, Goldman's entire existence rests on the value of its Level 3 assets.
Sorry, if you were looking for an argument, I don't have one. I agree that this is not a race issue and I agree that this is not limited to subprime. Those are only components of this entire mess!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Sorry, if you were looking for an argument, I don't have one. I agree that this is not a race issue and I agree that this is not limited to subprime. Those are only components of this entire mess!
the "project" from Bush was heavily race oriented, however, it was abused by all
President Bush has a comprehensive agenda to help increase the number of minority homeowners by at least 5.5 million before the end of the decade.
While the overall homeownership rate has reached an all time high of nearly 68 percent, the statistics show a clear and persistent homeownership gap:
* Despite increases in minority homeownership during the decade of the 1990s, large persistent gaps between non-Hispanic whites and minorities remain and have narrowed only slightly; * According to HUD, in 1994 the minority homeownership rate was 26.8 percent below the rate for white households; * The African-American homeownership rate was 27.5 percentage points below the white rate, and the Hispanic rate was 28.8 percentage points below the white rate; * The second quarter Census data for 2002 shows that non-Hispanic whites have a 74.3% homeownership rate, while African-Americans have a 48% rate and Hispanics a 47.6% rate; and * Asian-Americans and other races have a 53.7% homeownership rate.
The President is issuing "America’s Homeownership Challenge" to the real estate and mortgage finance industries to join in his effort to increase the number of minority homeowners by 5.5 million families by the end of the decade. Many organizations have already responded to the President’s challenge by committing to:
* Substantially increase by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market, specifically targeted toward the minority market;
* Launching twenty-five different local initiatives across the nation, geared toward eliminating the specific homeownership barriers faced by minority families in those communities;
* Raising $750 million in below-market-rate investments by 2007, which will work in collaboration with local homeownership initiatives and be targeted to heavily minority program areas;
* Pursuing strategic partnerships in 20 top housing markets between homebuilders, lenders, local officials, and community leaders to develop approaches that address the local challenges to building homes for minority families living in urban centers;
* Establishing faith-based housing partnerships between the participants and at least 100 churches, mosques, synagogues, and other faith-based institutions;
* Aggressively developing new mortgage products so that conventional market alternatives are available to combat the predatory loan products that are disproportionately targeted to minorities;
* Creating new mortgage products to meet the unique needs of recent immigrants;
* Dramatically expanding financial education efforts for minorities, providing financial counseling to at least 380,000 minority families, and taking measures at the local level to reduce predatory lending; and
* Establishing multilingual, consumer-oriented internet Web sites designed to help minorities overcome barriers to homeownership, including creation of a central data bank of affordable housing programs made available to real estate agents when working with clients Posted by glassman on :
Substantially increase by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market, specifically targeted toward the minority market
he spent 440 billion to MAKE this happen? and now we have to spend twice as much to UNDO it?
this is just creeepy...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:so lemme see if i understand this?
he spent 440 billion to MAKE this happen? and now we have to spend twice as much to UNDO it?
this is just creeepy...
I think that about sums it up! However, I've heard that the real number to "fix it" will be more like $2.1 Trillion! In reality, I don't think the bailout will fix the problem. All it will do is keep the Wall Street FatCats in business!
Posted by glassman on :
the next issue is who will buy the Govt Issue bonds that will finance this? the Chinese? the Russians? or the Saudis?
i thought we needed to drill here and now to stop sending money to the Saudi's...
the Russkies are cash rich from their oil and nat gas, but we are looking to get Georgia into NATO...
hmmmm..... are they shortselling?
China? that's about it... last year they told Paulson no when he asked them....
wait! i know who will buy them... the very same people we are buying the bad mortgages from.... Posted by T e x on :
see another thread...
same question: who buys?
Posted by bond006 on :
I keep reading on this thread that this whole mess is scoclism.
I would agree with that if we were getting complete ownership of these companies . I think the government is running fannie and freddie but this 700 billion is wanted to buy there bad investments and that is all we will own a bunch of securities that nobody eles would buy.And like beloved leader said last night that some day in the future they will be worth something maybe. Maybe by the time maybe comes around maybe Bush will be gone.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: I keep reading on this thread that this whole mess is scoclism.
I would agree with that if we were getting complete ownership of these companies . I think the government is running fannie and freddie but this 700 billion is wanted to buy there bad investments and that is all we will own a bunch of securities that nobody eles would buy.And like beloved leader said last night that some day in the future they will be worth something maybe. Maybe by the time maybe comes around maybe Bush will be gone.
Well Bond if Obama wins you'll get everything you want. A government completely controlled by the Democrat party. Will they step up to the plate and fix this or stay in the dugout and point at the out of office Bush and blame everything on him.
Posted by glassman on :
Lock, it sux, but what else can you expect?
seriously? Karl Rove played the Republican Party like a fiddle...
all that crap he spun out had to come back and bite the party sometime...
Posted by glassman on :
OK, here's Cox on the CDS swap market, and he might actually be right for a change...
Cox: Default Swaps Are Naked Shorts In prepared testimony that he will deliver to the Senate this morning, the SEC chairman will call for Congress to give his agency authority over swaps. Tim Reason - CFO.com | US
September 23, 2008
Credit default swaps, potentially the next domino to fall in the ongoing financial crisis, are the debt equivalent of naked shorts on stocks, according to the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission.
In prepared testimony that he will deliver before the Senate Banking Committee this morning, SEC chairman Christopher Cox equated the sale of the unregulated bond derivatives with naked short selling and called on Congress to give his agency authority to regulate the derivatives.
"Economically, a CDS buyer is tantamount to a short seller of the bond underlying the CDS," said Cox. "Whereas a person who owns a bond profits when its issuer is in a position to repay the bond, a short seller profits when, among other things, the bond goes into default. Importantly, CDS buyers do not have to own the bond or other debt instrument upon which a CDS contract is based. This means CDS buyers can 'naked short' the debt of companies without restriction."
he is actually coming right out and saying that this crash scenario has been engineered...
Posted by bond006 on :
I hope they blame everthing from Regan on up to and including Bush.
If so called capitalism can't seem to manage its own affairs with out the help of public funds thoes corporations should be public property.
This is not the first time thay have came to the gonernment hat in hand like wipped yellow dogs.
And the only reason they are in this mess like the S&L mess before this is they were allowed to operate as they pleased with no regulations and they caused pain for most of society. Plus there CEO's and upper management want big golden parachutes on the way out.
If I had my way they would be stripped of all they own. Them and there families would be under banishment forever. End of story.
Posted by a surfer on :
Not every CEO was a criminal.
Some made great management decisions hence making their company money
Most operated under the guidelines that were laid out for them.
Their is a fine line of who crossed the ethical line.
If you want these CEO's and their families banished forever then you should walk up and down your street and banish everyone who took on a loan that was over their head.
Don't get me wrong there are several that need to be apprehended and made to pay.
Posted by glassman on :
it's not just about home loans tho Surf.
it's about bad business practices. they leveraged these loans at 40 to one...
i expect that as we discover what has really happened we'll find that they were basically creating their own money inside the brokerages..
sure, they'll say it was "standard" accounting practices...
but the reality is that they exploited loopholes in the existing rules. and they knew the eventual effect, but decided to pass the burning match...
i do want house prices to come down more... i'm looking for the perfect deal..
Posted by bond006 on :
I don't get you wrong sufer I know where you are coming from me and you will never agree on justice and law
I think these people are thives you don't the people that took the loans were marketed to and it was made simple and easy to do lots of people did it. maybe even you. The power of sales manship and the fact that everbody wants the American dream over came all concerned.
Then unregulated greed took over and it was just make the loan no matter what becase we are going to sell it. And to bad for thoes that bougt it. Thats the problem. And thoes worthless securities are what we tax payers are going to buy what a deal.
Posted by a surfer on :
What.....??? Trouble reading the last one bond.
I had a 135k line of credit in 05 and paid it back in full in 06.
My dad always told me to secure lines of credit when you DON'T need them.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by a surfer: What.....??? Trouble reading the last one bond.
I had a 135k line of credit in 05 and paid it back in full in 06.
My dad always told me to secure lines of credit when you DON'T need them.
i was made fun of in '05 for being conservative by real estate agents, a mortgage broker that we didn't use, and even family questioned my sensibilty to not bury myself in debt...
last year and before? i even had people ask me why i wouldn't go itno debt to build my business...
i allow some of my credit cards to carry debt on occasion JUST to make my credit score higher...
Posted by a surfer on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: it's not just about home loans tho Surf.
it's about bad business practices. they leveraged these loans at 40 to one...
i expect that as we discover what has really happened we'll find that they were basically creating their own money inside the brokerages..
sure, they'll say it was "standard" accounting practices...
but the reality is that they exploited loopholes in the existing rules. and they knew the eventual effect, but decided to pass the burning match...
i do want house prices to come down more... i'm looking for the perfect deal..
Completely understood Glass.
Its these loopholes that have to be looked at as we move forward.
How do we prosecute ethics???
LOL. Hell yea I am ready for another buying opp myself.
I paid through the nose in 06 but that was after a double from 04 to 06.
Perfect deal?? The $100 dream house.
Posted by bond006 on :
Sufer thats what I am talking about because you did or did not manage your affairs has nothing to do with guilt I am glad things worked out for you.
The lenders and what they did whith the contracts is who I blame.
And no not all ceo's are to blame thats why we investigate
Posted by bdgee on :
The blame lies squarely on republican party deregulation and anti-tax mantra and all else and all others are simply dupes of the Party.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: I hope they blame everthing from Regan on up to and including Bush.
If so called capitalism can't seem to manage its own affairs with out the help of public funds thoes corporations should be public property.
This is not the first time thay have came to the gonernment hat in hand like wipped yellow dogs.
And the only reason they are in this mess like the S&L mess before this is they were allowed to operate as they pleased with no regulations and they caused pain for most of society. Plus there CEO's and upper management want big golden parachutes on the way out.
If I had my way they would be stripped of all they own. Them and there families would be under banishment forever. End of story.
Best said and this is what happens with no or very little regulation in any industry...
Posted by glassman on :
i think the worst part in all of this is that the bailout of 700B isn't enough by half...
who actually HAS all the CASH?
that's what the "liquidity problem" is...
somebody has the cash somewhere...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by a surfer: What.....??? Trouble reading the last one bond.
I had a 135k line of credit in 05 and paid it back in full in 06.
My dad always told me to secure lines of credit when you DON'T need them.
i was made fun of in '05 for being conservative by real estate agents, a mortgage broker that we didn't use, and even family questioned my sensibilty to not bury myself in debt...
last year and before? i even had people ask me why i wouldn't go itno debt to build my business...
i allow some of my credit cards to carry debt on occasion JUST to make my credit score higher...
The problem is not debt itself but how much debt a person can take on and still make their payments... when there is a free for all whether in mortgages, car loans, credit cards etc... Human nature is to overextend themselves... also the so called "American dream" has been implanted in most of us to have more then everyone else as possible... when that happens people think irrationally and buy above their means...
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i think the worst part in all of this is that the bailout of 700B isn't enough by half...
who actually HAS all the CASH?
that's what the "liquidity problem" is...
somebody has the cash somewhere...
In numbered accounts in Switzerland or the Bahamas or South America, maybe?
Trickle down my hind end!
Posted by glassman on :
The problem is not debt itself but how much debt a person can take on and still make their payments...
being in debt limits your freedom tho...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
if you take too much debt.. but if you take debt within reason it can be good for you for whatever reason like business expansion, homebuying, trading in financial markets etc...
Posted by Pagan on :
Lawmakers agree on bailout principles to protect taxpayers and ensure oversight.
By Tami Luhby, CNNMoney.com senior writer Last Updated: September 25, 2008: 2:36 PM ET NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Lawmakers have reached agreement on a bipartisan counterproposal to the Bush administration's $700 billion financial bailout plan.
Both parties and the House and Senate agreed Thursday to a set of principles on revisions to the rescue plan, which calls for the Treasury Department to buy up bad mortgage securities from banks in an effort to get them to lend again.
The proposal will help homeowners, curb executive pay packages at participating firms and provide oversight of Treasury's actions, said Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., a key architect of the congressional effort. He did not provide details but said lawmakers will sit down with Treasury officials to discuss it.
"We've reached a fundamental agreement on a set of principles, one, for taxpayers, which is tremendously important," Dodd said. "We're very confident we can act expeditiously."
At least one prominent Republican says matters still aren't settled.
"House Republicans have not agreed to any plan at this point," said John Boehner, R-Ohio, minority leader.
Instead of receiving the entire sum at one time, Treasury will receive the money in installments, with $250 billion in bailout funds available immediately, the Wall Street Journal reported. Lawmakers also said the deal calls for the government to receive stock warrants of participating companies, the Journal said.
Administration officials said they were pleased that progress is being made.
"We'll want to hear from Secretary Paulson, and take a look at the details," said Tony Fratto, a White House spokesman. "We look forward to a good discussion at the meeting this afternoon."
The provisions that Congress wants to add to the administration's plan should make Americans "legitimately feel better about the overall approach," said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., who heads the House Financial Services Committee.
Taxpayers would be protected under the congressional version of the bailout, said Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Ala., the top Republican on the House Financial Services Committee. Congress' additions to the proposal call for the Treasury to be "reimbursed for their expenditures," he said.
Lawmakers said they wanted to send a message to the markets to calm down. Wall Street heard the message, sending the Dow Jones Industrial Average up more than 300 points after the agreement was announced. It then settled back to a gain of 200 points.
First Published: September 25, 2008: 1:28 PM ET
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
i do want house prices to come down more... i'm looking for the perfect deal..
Come on up to Michigan Glass...I see homes going for .40 to .50 cents on the dollar everywhere...
I looked at a brand new 3400 sq. ft. brick & stone home the other day on 3 1/2 acres that would cost at least $550,000.00 to build today...going price...$200,000.00
Posted by T e x on :
quote: JPMorgan Chase buys Washington Mutual The nation's largest thrift is seized by federal regulators and immediately sold. By E. Scott Reckard and Tiffany Hsu, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer 6:39 PM PDT, September 25, 2008 Washington Mutual Bank, the country's largest savings and loan, was seized late today by federal regulators and immediately sold to JPMorgan Chase & Co., the New York banking giant that has long coveted the thrift's California and Florida branches.
With assets of $307 billion and deposits of $188 billion, Washington Mutual is the largest bank to fail in U.S. history.
the bailout was too late for them.....
Posted by bond006 on :
I think it is better for WA MU customers to be bought out.
Business as usual today now if J.P. morgan goes down I guess the country goes with it.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
I think JP Morgan will get themselves in trouble buying too many companies too soon... they will overextend themselves.. they did like 6 deals this year alone i believe? Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: I think JP Morgan will get themselves in trouble buying too many companies too soon... they will overextend themselves.. they did like 6 deals this year alone i believe?
But Mach, buying $307BB in assets for $1.9BB. Easy decision. Seems like a fox in the hen house to me. That is absolute financial rape.
Put it in common terms. Buy a $500k house for like $5k. Wouldn't you do that? I sure as hell would. Taxpayers got raped yet again on that deal.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
Yah, I understand what you mean but something can go wrong for them somewhere down the road...
Posted by glassman on :
the House Republicans plans are totally ridiculous..
i've never seen such a blatant attempt to run away from a problem and try to blame everybody else for a BAD solution to a worse problem...
insuring the mortgages is not going to unlock the liquidity problem...
and giving more tax breaks when we are BANKRUPT is just crazy.
we are going to have to pay... there is no escaping that.. unless you want to make YOUR KIDS and grandkids pay... which is just pitiful.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Details begining to materialize as Congress works to hammer out the details.
I still really don't like this idea but I gotta admit that Buffett holds a lot more respect from me then Bush or Paulson. If he says we need this it makes me pause. (Which is probably exactly why someone asked him to speak out.)
Posted by bond006 on :
Let me tell you why there is a part of me that would like to see sob's suffer a little and may watch a few go down.
When me and my wife were young our firt son was very ill do not want to go into what was wrong our insurance coverd most of the cost but not the years worth of home care and special attention he would need.
We both had to work to make ends meat then I went to the bank to get an equity loan on our house so my wife could stay home and we were refused told we would be a bad risk i had to get a part time job and so did my wife and take care of our son, we went backwards for two years and it took me five years to work out of the short term debt We had aquired. my son is fine but we were put in a real financial bind for five years.
This same Bank today is in trouble and so is the secound one I tried at Why? Because of greed and bad management they can't go to the market and barrow so they are on there knees begging tax payers so they can stay in business most likley they will squrim out of paying us back.
I big part of me would like to shovle the dirt over them myself.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: Let me tell you why there is a part of me that would like to see sob's suffer a little and may watch a few go down.
When me and my wife were young our firt son was very ill do not want to go into what was wrong our insurance coverd most of the cost but not the years worth of home care and special attention he would need.
We both had to work to make ends meat then I went to the bank to get an equity loan on our house so my wife could stay home and we were refused told we would be a bad risk i had to get a part time job and so did my wife and take care of our son, we went backwards for two years and it took me five years to work out of the short term debt We had aquired. my son is fine but we were put in a real financial bind for five years.
This same Bank today is in trouble and so is the secound one I tried at Why? Because of greed and bad management they can't go to the market and barrow so they are on there knees begging tax payers so they can stay in business most likley they will squrim out of paying us back.
I big part of me would like to shovle the dirt over them myself.
I'll buy you the shovel...and ship it free.
Posted by glassman on :
and i'll be glad to help dig...
bond, you may still get your wish...
i still cannot figure out what effect buying th ebad mortgages has on credit defauit swap "insurers"...
say the govt buys a bond for 60% of face, and the loss is 40%... does the seller of the insurance (CDS) have to pay the difference? or is the credit swap only good if the bonds value drops to zero...
i'll keep looking and see what i can find...
another issue is how to value assets that don't have a market at all.... nobody else wants them...
Posted by glassman on :
interesting read:
One 1994 trip by a group of JPMorgan bankers to the tony Boca Raton Resort & Club in Florida has become the stuff of Wall Street legend—though not for the raucous partying (although there was plenty of that, too). Holed up for most of the weekend in a conference room at the pink, Spanish-style resort, the JPMorgan bankers were trying to get their heads around a question as old as banking itself: how do you mitigate your risk when you loan money to someone? By the mid-'90s, JPMorgan's books were loaded with tens of billions of dollars in loans to corporations and foreign governments, and by federal law it had to keep huge amounts of capital in reserve in case any of them went bad. But what if JPMorgan could create a device that would protect it if those loans defaulted, and free up that capital?
Like Robert Oppenheimer and his team of nuclear physicists in the 1940s, Brickell and his JPMorgan colleagues didn't realize they were creating a monster.
One of the earliest CDS deals came out of JPMorgan in December 1997, when the firm put into place the idea hatched in Boca Raton. It essentially took 300 different loans, totaling $9.7 billion, that had been made to a variety of big companies like Ford, Wal-Mart and IBM, and cut them up into pieces known as "tranches" (that's French for "slices"). The bank then identified the riskiest 10 percent tranche and sold it to investors in what was called the Broad Index Securitized Trust Offering, or Bistro for short. The Bistro was put together by Terri Duhon, at the time a 25-year-old MIT graduate working on JPMorgan's credit swaps desk in New York—a division that would eventually earn the name the Morgan Mafia for the number of former members who went on to senior positions at global banks and hedge funds. "We made it possible for banks to get their credit risk off their books and into nonfinancial institutions like insurance companies and pension funds," says Duhon, who now heads her own derivatives consulting business in London.
"I big part of me would like to shovle the dirt over them myself."
_________________________________________________
You would need something bigger to get all of them like a bobcat shovel.
I can not believe what they are going to vote on did not expect just the bad side of these companies.
Wouldn't it be nice to know that if you own your own business that someone would buy up the bad side to take away the risk, plus make a hugh salary in the process, where do i sign.
"The ultimate goal of the plan remains the same: buy bad mortgage-related bets from weakened financial companies"
Posted by bdgee on :
Wait a minute, guys.
In your hast of hate and disgust to see the bad guys punished in this market mess, you are being irrational. There is a lot more at stake here than just bad guys.
Suppose a bunch of bad guys pirated a cruise ship full of guys that weren't part of their badness (does happen fairly and too often, doesn't it) and in the process of their efforts the ship was out to sea when it began to surely sink. If you follow the reasoning I see too many of you jumping on with both feet, in order to assure that the bad guys suffer for their badness, you would disallow anyone coming to the rescue and let all on board drown.
Yes, it is the case that saving the innocent will most likely allow the bad guys to live to steal another day. But, dammit, it is the American way, thank god!
Posted by andrew on :
true
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Wait a minute, guys.
In your hast of hate and disgust to see the bad guys punished in this market mess, you are being irrational. There is a lot more at stake here than just bad guys.
Suppose a bunch of bad guys pirated a cruise ship full of guys that weren't part of their badness (does happen fairly and too often, doesn't it) and in the process of their efforts the ship was out to sea when it began to surely sink. If you follow the reasoning I see too many of you jumping on with both feet, in order to assure that the bad guys suffer for their badness, you would disallow anyone coming to the rescue and let all on board drown.
Yes, it is the case that saving the innocent will most likely allow the bad guys to live to steal another day. But, dammit, it is the American way, thank god!
I agree with you but we can't keep bailing out the financil markets or else they will think its ok to fail because Big Brother will step in and pay off their debts so to speak like paying off a loan shark. They will never learn a lesson. The S&L mess of back in the days should of taught them a lesson but obviously it didn't and neither will this sometime in the future however long in the future that will be.
Posted by a surfer on :
Bill yields failing....
tank city.
where does the dow close??? 700-1000 down.
Posted by glassman on :
i'm buying a rototiller so i can keep eating Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Nasdaq & S&P 500 really getting hammered also.
Posted by Pagan on :
House of Reps bombed the bailout bill. hence the market crashing. Another lovely day in the US Markets. I wish I had shorted more stocks Posted by a surfer on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i'm buying a rototiller so i can keep eating
LOL No sh!t......
My buddy and I have started an organic garden thats 20X40 behind both our houses. Figure I'll at least teach my daughter about the fruits of labor.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan: House of Reps bombed the bailout bill. hence the market crashing. Another lovely day in the US Markets. I wish I had shorted more stocks
I'm getting hammered today as well... but im holding regardless because sooner or later they have to approve some plan and when they do our stronger stocks will recover in our portfolio... me going against my rule of cutting my losses... i am getting especially hammered on a airline stock though... but if oil goes down signficantly for just 2 days that will recover.. we shall see what this week brings....
Posted by glassman on :
Mach, i'm looking for it to go alot lower...
i don't think the bailout would have worked in the long run anyway... it would have just slowed it...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
[the Andrea Gail is climbing a gigantic wave] Captain Billy Tyne: C'MON, YOU BIOTCH!
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Maybe a lot of these guys voting and their buddies are playing the market short right now and are going to wait a few days before changing their votes then they will change their buys in the other direction.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Yeah...
I was thinking 10000 was the bottom of our mess but now with all hope/discouragement/ fear in the markets thanks to our political leaders pulling a Terry Schiavo in the marketplace I think we are gonna dip below 9 before we see solid ground. I believe that even if they end up getting the bill through.
I am happy that it didn't pass first try. People are pissed off and our leaders need to recognize that that still does mean something here.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
even though im against it, it should pass but modified of course...
Posted by glassman on :
well the punks on the Hill are just trying to position themselves to blame the "other guy"...
i like the idea of the govt starting a GOOD Bank to take the GOOD paper and letting the rest fail...
i realise that will hurt alot of other people that prolly don't deserve it, but it will keep liquidity for those that deserve it..
Posted by a surfer on :
I also like the Idea that the FDIC insure up to 1 million instead of $100k. I know some ridicule Cramer but he does make good sense sometimes.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
One thing that i have really come to realize in the last year is that how much money can be made on the big boards with just a little inside information no matter which way the stocks go.
This whole thing sucks for the average person just because our representatives would not manage the store for a lot of years.
We have been talking about this on allstocks for a long time and i am not just talking about today's problem.
Posted by glassman on :
well, at least we didn't hit the circuit breaker...
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Some of these media stations can sure help to spread panic by what they say.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: Some of these media stations can sure help to spread panic by what they say.
comeon iwish, Bush spread the panic by saying we need the bailout..
the panic could have been averted by some honesty starting a year ago...
two weeks ago? our economy was fundamentally sound? and then last week it needed a bailout.. that's what Bush said.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
That's true also, but as i watched one station the stock market was about 700 down and as it went back to 500 down the tone changed.
Of course there views have nothing to do with the stock market as they state and as we have seen in the past months the stock market is always an actual indicator of what shape the economy is in.
Posted by jordanreed on :
I've heard Glass say that very thing for years
Posted by Propertymanager on :
777 Points - BIG DEAL!!! I thought the Wall Street crowd said that we were going over a cliff. That would have been about 3,777 points. I've been saying for a long time that the market is irrationally high. I'm still predicting 7,700 on the DOW - for STARTERS!
If we really have a depression, I'm hoping that all these Fatcats on Wall Street that played these huge risks go out of business. I'm also hoping that we get back to reality and understand that we can NOT afford all the entitlements we have promised. Time to take a meat cleaver to those also!!! BACK TO REALITY!
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: 777 Points - BIG DEAL!!! I thought the Wall Street crowd said that we were going over a cliff. That would have been about 3,777 points. I've been saying for a long time that the market is irrationally high. I'm still predicting 7,700 on the DOW - for STARTERS!
If we really have a depression, I'm hoping that all these Fatcats on Wall Street that played these huge risks go out of business. I'm also hoping that we get back to reality and understand that we can NOT afford all the entitlements we have promised. Time to take a meat cleaver to those also!!! BACK TO REALITY!
Back to your entitlements BS. What is happening right now has nothing to do with entitlements. Which by the way you have not had a problem utilizing to rent your properties. What are you going to do when the government can't pay for Section 8 and nobody can afford to rent your properties? *************************************************
Many here have posted in the past about the looming problem, to no avail. Some as yourself have posted that the market should fail. We are not just talking about the U.S. market now but about the global market. I wonder how happy you all will be in the near future if in fact we do expirence a worldwide recession or worse yet depression.
Action needed/needs to be taken. Political posturing in order to have something to be elected or re-elected on is the only reason no action is being taken, thanks to the many that won't look at the bigger overall picture.
Individuals that don't depend on the market for income feeling that Wall St is getting their comeuppance will see that what is happening will affect everyone, including main street.
I'm not saying that I understand all the ramifications but I think I understand enough to see where this is headed.
PM: you saying 3,777 shows your lack of understanding. The whole market would have been halted prior to it ever hitting that in one day. Today's drop is just the beginning if action isn't taken and it will go lower since nothing will happen in the next day or 2. Watch what happens tommorrow. Many everyday people who are retired or were looking to retire are losing most if not all of their retirement.
Yep, let's privatize Social Security so that their is no safety net at all. Great idea. NOT!!!
Posted by glassman on :
don't take him too seriously wally... IMO? the bailout was voted down becuase it wouldn't have worked anyway,
the 700 billion wouldn't fix half the bad loans, but the bad loans are only part of the problem...
CDS's amount to a 42 TRILLION dollar market, that's where the "mulitplier effect" is hammering the banks and the insurance co's...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Gingrich: 'Final collapse of the Bush administration'
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) said the Wall Street bailout plan pushed by President Bush signaled the "final collapse" of the current administration.
"The Bush administration has now provided three case studies in arrogance, isolation and destructiveness: Michael Brown during Hurricane Katrina, Ambassador Jerry Bremer in Baghdad and Secretary Henry Paulson at Treasury," Gingrich said. "It is a tragic and very expensive legacy. No conservative and no Republican should doubt how much it has hurt our cause and our party."
The former Speaker reiterated his call for the resignation of Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson.
"?As long as Secretary Paulson is in charge, it is impossible to get a creative or significantly better solution," Gingrich stated, adding that the Treasury chief was "an even greater obstacle to a good bill than the liberal Democrats who run the House and Senate."
####thehill.com/leading-the-news/gingrich-final-collapse-of-the-bush-administrat ion-2008-09-29.html
Posted by glassman on :
CCM, i didn't want this bailout either but the no vote by the GOP's will most likely lead to them losing their jobs too as the next few weeks play out...
tar and feathers for everybody!!!!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:IMO? the bailout was voted down becuase it wouldn't have worked anyway,
No, the bailout was voted down because literally MILLIONS of average Americans called their idiot congressmen and told them that they were mad and that they wanted the bailout voted down. The congressmen didn't want to lose their jobs, I called and sent e-mails for 3 straight days and will start again tomorrow! Keep those phone calls coming and let these idiots in Congress know what you think!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:IMO? the bailout was voted down becuase it wouldn't have worked anyway,
No, the bailout was voted down because literally MILLIONS of average Americans called their idiot congressmen and told them that they were mad and that they wanted the bailout voted down. The congressmen didn't want to lose their jobs, I called and sent e-mails for 3 straight days and will start again tomorrow! Keep those phone calls coming and let these idiots in Congress know what you think!
yeah and as the depression hits? they'll be blamed, the Dems know this too, and they'll be twisting the knife...the GOP gets to shoulder the whole mess now.. Bush and the House GOP... the Dems can honestly say they tried but were blocked..
i told you the other day it's a lose/lose for the GOP..
i wasn't/am not for a bailout, i assumed they'd do it because they have no choice...
but i've also shown you figures that show the bailout would cover much less than half the bad mortgages...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:i told you the other day it's a lose/lose for the GOP..
The GOP DESERVES TO BE BLAMED!!! As I said before, Bush's "Homeownership" initiative is largely responsible for thes entire mess. In addition, EVERY CONSERVATIVE that voted for this bailout should be voted out of office. Furthermore, NO ONE should be bailed out with taxpayer money: NOT AIG; NOT BEAR STEARNS; NOT FANNIE AND FREDDIE; NOT GOLDMAN SACHS; NOT THE AIRLINES; NOT THE AUTO INDUSTRY; and CERTAINLY NOT PEOPLE WHO TOOK OUT A BIGGER MORTGAGE THAN THEY COULD AFFORD!
Posted by glassman on :
and the Dems will twist this knife for all it's worth.
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: don't take him too seriously wally... IMO? the bailout was voted down becuase it wouldn't have worked anyway,
the 700 billion wouldn't fix half the bad loans, but the bad loans are only part of the problem...
CDS's amount to a 42 TRILLION dollar market, that's where the "mulitplier effect" is hammering the banks and the insurance co's...
Oh, I agree that the bailout will not fix the overall situation but taking no action at all won't fix it either.
The problem I have is that IMO, it was voted down for purely political reasons. The Congressional Republicans finally say no to Bush. Too little too late. And they claim Country First. What a joke. Don't get me wrong the Dems aren't much better.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:and the Dems will twist this knife for all it's worth.
Fine with me!!! The GOP needs a complete house cleaning. No, not a house cleaning - more like a complete REHAB.
Posted by ohio_trader on :
the real bailout number is estimated between $5-7 TRILLION- now how on earth does anyone with a brain thinks we have that kind of dough. it would surely dilute are money to being worthless in time. this is ridiculous might as well send every homeowner a check for $50,000, it would do us more good than bailing them out.
the real solution to congress- we stop paying interest on the national debt instantly- the new interest rate will be zero percent- no bailout will be needed and our taxes could go down
also on the mortage side- allow anyone with a clean payment history in the last 12-24 months to refinance existing balance only, if they are at a higher rate, no appraisal necessary
this would help about 25% of mortgage holders now, their balances would not increase, they could lower their rate even though they've take a bath on loss of equity( which is why they can't get a loan now)
All I can say is this country, and world is in one hell of mess over this- and this ain't going to be an easy fixing.
Why i believe it was voted down- a bandaid over a bullet wound doesn't work so well, they want to pass something, to put the focus back on the election- why?so this problem is back at us by spring and even worse.. stupid
and where were these same politicians, secretary of treasure, federal reserve at 1-2 yrs ago????
all the sudden we need 700 billion, 2 trillion, 5 trillion whatever...where were you clowns when it hit 50 billion, 150 billion...oh, thats right you were stripping your funds from the stock market and real estate assets, before the saps caught wind of what was going on....
i will still continue making calls, as i feel they are working, they can't handle the heat you know with elections around the corner
NOTE: do not be influenced by their pack of lies
i.e the stock market will crash, you lose, your house, will go into a recession, all these lies being propagated by congressman, bernanke, paulson, bush
first off the stock market has been a rocky ride since 9/11, second most of the country is already in a recession and had been for awhile , 3rd the real estate market is going down regardless if this passes or not and won't turn until 2013+ anyways at best
GOD BLESS OUR COUNTRY, divine intervention may be are only hope on this one....
Posted by glassman on :
the real estate market is going down regardless if this passes or not
that's because people can't/couldn't afford the prices...
two years ago? the median home price went to almost 240K$ and the median household income was 48K$...
anybody trying to pay more than 1/3 of their after tax income on their mortgage payment is going to lose eventually...
this was inevitable...
Posted by glassman on :
the real bailout number is estimated between $5-7 TRILLION-
is that for bad mortgages only or does it include CDS payouts and resulting BKRPTcy's too?
Posted by ohio_trader on :
includes most all- but not much allotting for future failures, which are surely going to continue to come down river
700 billion is only a fraction of whats necessary, but is 5-7 trillion enough, god only knows.....
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by ohio_trader: includes most all- but not much allotting for future failures, which are surely going to continue to come down river
700 billion is only a fraction of whats necessary, but is 5-7 trillion enough, god only knows.....
OK, from what i have been able to discover?
there were about 3.25 trillion$ in mortgages issued in '06...
so i beleive the three years '04, '05 and '06 should be about ten trillion$ total... about 20- to 30 percent of them are sub-prime...
keep in mind that not all sub-primes are failing, and, don't forget that alot of non-prime's (above sub, but still below prime) are failing too...
so let's GUESS at 20%.... that's 2 trillion...
the problem is that CDS's were inusrance polices against the mortgage backed bonds failing and the issuers don't have the money, never did.. they just the collected insurance payments on notes and were never capitialised to actually pay off the notes if they failed..
to add to that? the mortgage note holders used the motgage notes as colateral to borrow at 40 to one and BUY MORE mortgages which they again re-colateralised... or they bought stock which tanked too
they were "safe" doing this because they had CDS (insurance) on them right?
2 trillion sounds good when you start considering that everybody that's agreed to swap credit defaults has to sell all of their assets just to go bankrupt because they cannot actually pay the claim against the CDS...
now do you see why they wanted the bailout?
all of these hedges and banks have shared the risk..
i dunno how JP Morgan (the actual inventors of the CDS) managed to have so little downside exposure to them (so far anyway)
Posted by ohio_trader on :
i dunno how JP Morgan (the actual inventors of the CDS) managed to have so little downside exposure to them (so far anyway)
John Pierpont Morgan (April 17, 1837 – March 31, 1913) was an American financier, banker and art collector who dominated corporate finance and industrial consolidation during his time. In 1892 Morgan arranged the merger of Edison General Electric and Thompson-Houston Electric Company to form General Electric. After financing the creation of the Federal Steel Company he merged the Carnegie Steel Company and several other steel and iron businesses to form the United States Steel Corporation in 1901. He is widely credited with having saved or rescued the U.S. national economy in general—and the federal government in particular—on two separate occasions. He bequeathed much of his large art collection to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City and to the Wadsworth Atheneum of Hartford, Connecticut. He died in Rome, Italy, in 1913 at the age of 75, leaving his fortune and business to his son, John Pierpont ("Jack") Morgan, Jr.(his son)
Jack Morgan took a prominent part in the financial aspects of the World War I. Following its outbreak, he made the first loan of $12,000,000 to Russia. In 1915, a loan of $50,000,000 was made to the French Government. All of the munitions purchased in the United States by the British were made through one of his firms. Mr. Morgan organized a syndicate of about 2200 banks and floated a loan of $500,000,000 to the Allies.
After the war, Jack Morgan made several trips to Europe to investigate and report on financial conditions there. On July 4th, 1915, a Frank Holt, (AKA Eric Muenter) tried to assassinate Morgan at his home at Glen Cove on Long Island. The night before, Holt had detonated a bomb in the Senate wing of the U.S. Capitol. After traveling to New York by train, he attacked Morgan the next morning, shooting him twice in the groin. The stated purpose of both acts was to get the U.S. to stop shipping munitions to France and Germany during World War I. After being arrested, Holt committed suicide in his jail cell several days later.
It should also be noted that Jack Morgan is also one of the signers of the Federal Reserve. He resembled his father in his dislike for publicity and in continuing his father's philanthropic policy. In 1920 he gave his London residence to the U.S. government for use as its embassy and later created the Pierpont Morgan Library as a public institution in 1924 as a memorial to his father.
(one of his 2 sons) Henry Sturgis Morgan was an American banker. He was the son of John Pierpont ("Jack") Morgan Jr. and Jane Norton Grew.
His father was the eldest son of renowned banker John Pierpont Morgan, Sr., founder of J.P. Morgan & Co.. His mother was the daughter of Boston banker and mill owner Henry Sturgis Grew, and was the aunt of Henry Grew Crosby.
Henry Sturgis Morgan co-founded the company Morgan Stanley in 1935, together with Harold Stanley and other former members of JP Morgan & Co., which was forced to split its Commercial and Investment Banking divisions following the Second Glass-Steagal Act of the same year.
Morgan Stanley (NYSE: MS) is a global financial services provider headquartered in New York City, New York, United States. It serves a diversified group of corporations, governments, financial institutions, and individuals. Morgan Stanley also operates in 33 countries around the world with 600 offices, with an approximate employee workforce of 45,000.[2] The company reports US$779 billion as assets under its management[3].
The corporation, formed by J.P. Morgan & Co. employees Henry S. Morgan, Harold Stanley and others, came into existence on September 16, 1935. In its first year the company operated with a 24% market share (US$1.1 billion) in public offerings and private placements. The main areas of business for the firm today are Global Wealth Management, Institutional Securities and Investment Management.
The company found itself in the midst of a management crisis in the late 90s[4] that saw it lose a lot of talent and competence[5] and ultimately saw the firing of its then CEO Philip Purcell in 2005. Since then Morgan Stanley has been undergoing a massive restructuring which also involved job cuts across various of its units.
On September 21, 2008, it was reported that the Federal Reserve allowed Morgan Stanley to change its status from investment bank to bank holding company in order to survive the American economic meltdown of 2008. [6]
On September 22, 2008, it was announced that Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group, Japan's largest bank, plans to take a stake of up to one-fifth in Morgan Stanley as part of a strategic alliance.
these guys are very very connected-they speak, u.s. govt jumps
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
777 i thought 7 was suppose to be a lucky number.
Would like to see that combination of 777 on a slot machine but did not look so good on the stock market today.
Posted by ohio_trader on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: 777 i thought 7 was suppose to be a lucky number.
Would like to see that combination of 777 on a slot machine but did not look so good on the stock market today.
lol
yeah thats the ticket for the bailout we all get to hit 777 in vegas on a $25 slot machine
Posted by wallymac on :
Financial Institutions, U.S. Economy, Financial Markets, Banking, Governance
Kenneth Rogoff, Nonresident Senior Fellow, Global Economy and Development
The Financial Times
September 17, 2008 — One of the most extraordinary features of the past month is the extent to which the dollar has remained immune to a once-in-a-lifetime financial crisis. If the US were an emerging market country, its exchange rate would be plummeting and interest rates on government debt would be soaring. Instead, the dollar has actually strengthened modestly, while interest rates on three- month US Treasury Bills have now reached 64-year lows. It is almost as if the more the US messes up, the more the world loves it.
But can this extraordinary vote of confidence in the dollar last? Perhaps, but as investors step back and look at the deep wounds of America's flagship financial sector, the public and private sector's massive borrowing needs, and the looming uncertainty of the November presidential elections, it is hard to believe that the dollar will continue to stand its ground as the crisis continues to deepen and unfold.
It is true that the US government has very deep pockets. Privately held US government debt was under $4,400bn at the end of 2007, representing less than 32 per cent of gross domestic product. This is roughly half the debt burden carried by most European countries, and an even smaller fraction of Japan's debt levels. It is also true that despite the increasingly tough stance of US regulators, the financial crisis has probably already added at most $200bn-$300bn to net debt, taking into account the likely losses on nationalising the mortgage giants Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, the costs of the $29bn March bail-out of investment bank Bear Stearns, the potential fallout from the various junk collateral the Federal Reserve has taken on to its balance sheet in the last few months, and finally, yesterday's $85bn bail-out of the insurance giant AIG.
Were the financial crisis to end today, the costs would be painful but manageable, roughly equivalent to the cost of another year in Iraq. Unfortunately, however, the financial crisis is far from over, and it is hard to imagine how the US government is going to succeed in creating a firewall against further contagion without spending five to 10 times more than it has already, that is, an amount closer to $1,000bn-$2,000bn.
True, the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve have done an admirable job over the past week in forcing the private sector to bear a share of the burden. By forcing the fourth largest investment bank, LehmanBrothers, into bankruptcy and Merrill Lynch into a distressed sale to Bank of America, they helped to facilitate a badly needed consolidation in the financial services sector. However, at this juncture, there is every possibility that the credit crisis will radiate out into corporate, consumer and municipal debt. Regardless of the Fed and Treasury's most determined efforts, the political pressures for a much larger bail-out, and pressures from the continued volatility in financial markets, are going to be irresistible.
It is hard to predict exactly how and when the mega-bail-out will evolve. At some point, we are likely to see a broadening and deepening of deposit insurance, much as the UK did in the case of Northern Rock. Probably, at some point, the government will aim to have a better established algorithm for making bridge loans and for triggering the effective liquidation of troubled firms and assets, although the task is far more difficult than was the case in the 1980s, when the Resolution Trust Corporation was formed to help clean up the saving and loan mess.
Of course, there also needs to be better regulation. It is incredible that the transparency-challenged credit default swap market was allowed to swell to a notional value of $6,200bn during 2008 even as it became obvious that any collapse of this market could lead to an even bigger mess than the fallout from subprime mortgage debt.
It may prove to be possible to fix the system for far less than $1,000bn- $2,000bn. The tough stance taken by regulators this past weekend with the investment banks Lehman and Merrill Lynch certainly helps.
Yet I fear that the American political system will ultimately drive the cost of saving the financial system well up into that higher territory.
A large expansion in debt will impose enormous fiscal costs on the US, ultimately hitting growth through a combination of higher taxes and lower spending. It will certainly make it harder for the US to maintain its military dominance, which has been one of the linchpins of the dollar.
The shrinking financial system will also undermine another central foundation of the strength of the US economy. And it is hard to see how the central bank will be able to resist a period of allowing elevated levels of inflation, as this offers a convenient way for the US to deflate the mounting cost of its private and public debts.
It is a very good thing that the rest of the world retains such confidence in America's ability to manage its problems, otherwise the financial crisis would be far worse.
Let us hope the US political and regulatory response continues to inspire this optimism. Otherwise, sharply rising interest rates and a rapidly declining dollar could put the US in a bind that many emerging markets are all too familiar with. --------------------------------------------------
Posted by glassman on :
i think the reason that the US dollar has remained strong is because other countries have "lifted it" by issuing more of their own debt/currency... they are just taking advantage of the opportunity...
Posted by andrew on :
is it true that the amount of money we are talking about.....It is enough for 33 million people to each get $21,000? It is hard to even fathom that much money.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
He'll give it to us and forget Wall Street lol We'll spend it right back into the economy which would better for all of us.
Posted by Highwaychild on :
Well, I guess they are about to bend us over. Better grab those ankles realllly tight.
I sent my constresssman and suckutor a e-mail and never got so much as a phone call, e-mail, noththing...
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
quote:Originally posted by Highwaychild: Well, I guess they are about to bend us over. Better grab those ankles realllly tight.
I sent my constresssman and suckutor a e-mail and never got so much as a phone call, e-mail, noththing...
I got my KY jelly ready...do you?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
The vote is about to be on....turn to CSPAN. They are voting on some india nuclear bill right now. The bailout is next for vote.
Posted by Highwaychild on :
A lot of yes votes so far... y16-4n. McCain y, Obama y.
Posted by Highwaychild on :
41y-14n
Jim Bunning NO.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Bank of America settles lawsuit over bad mortgages
By CHRISTOPHER WILLS, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. - Facing a lawsuit over deceptive mortgage practices, a Bank of America Corp. subsidiary has agreed to modify tens of thousands of loans to keep people in 11 states from losing their homes, the Illinois attorney general's office said Sunday. ADVERTISEMENT
Borrowers stuck with Countrywide Financial mortgages that they can't afford could see their interest rates reduced or have the loan principal cut. Some might qualify for having to pay nothing but interest for a decade. Even people who can't afford to keep their homes with such changes will be able to get help moving to a new home.
"This is going to provide a tremendous amount of relief," said Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan.
Her office and officials from California negotiated the settlement. Nine other states have also joined the settlement, and other states could sign on, said Deborah Hagan, chief of Madigan's Consumer Protection Division.
If all 50 states were to join, the settlement could provide $8.7 billion in relief to 400,000 borrowers, Hagan said.
In California alone, the settlement will offer $3.5 billion in relief. For Illinois, that would translate to $190 million. The total for the 11 states was not immediately available.
The settlement applies to people who obtained their mortgages through Countrywide Financial Corp., which Charlotte, N.C.-based Bank of America purchased in June, at the same time Illinois and California sued the company.
"Countrywide's lending practices turned the American dream into a nightmare for tens of thousands of families by putting them into loans they couldn't understand and ultimately couldn't afford," California Attorney General Jerry Brown Jr. said in a statement Sunday.
The other states joining the settlement are Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Iowa, Michigan, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas and Washington.
Bank of America will launch the new mortgage aid program in December, said Barbara Desoer, president of Bank of America's mortgage, home equity and insurance services. In a statement, she called it "a comprehensive program that provides more solutions than ever before to assist troubled borrowers and put them back on the path to sustained home ownership."
The mortgage aid includes revising customers' payments so they don't exceed 34 percent of income. Other options include reducing interest rates and adjusting principal so that borrowers don't wind up actually losing equity under some payment plans.
Countrywide will not charge loan modification fees and will waive prepayment penalties.
Madigan said she hopes the settlement could serve as a model for steps that other lenders could take to make up for misleading mortgage practices. She stressed that the agreement involves no tax money but will help people keep their homes and keep money flowing to lenders
"This settlement will help homeowners stay in their homes, which ultimately helps investors and also helps communities," said Madigan, a Chicago Democrat.
wow, now some creative thinking...AFTER thousands have already gone through foreclosure.
seems like all states could go after all bad lenders, doesn't it?
Posted by raybond on :
Now IMHO that is the way to handle the forclouser problem.Not only are we using the trickle up economy but they are helping the realestate market firm up
Posted by raybond on :
Close Window Congress hears Lehman sought millions for execs Monday, October 6, 2008 WASHINGTON - Days from becoming the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history, Lehman Brothers steered millions to departing executives even while pleading for a federal rescue, Congress was told Monday.
As well, executives who feared for their bonuses in the company's last months were told not to worry, according to documents cited at a congressional hearing. One executive said he was embarrassed when employees suggested that Lehman executives forgo bonuses, and cracked: "I'm not sure what's in the water."
The first hearing into what caused the nation's financial markets to collapse last month, precipitating a $700 billion bailout, opened with finger-pointing and glimpses into internal company documents from Lehman's chaotic last hours.
Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said the giant investment bank was "a company in which there was no accountability for failure." Lehman's collapse set off a panic that within days had President Bush and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson asking Congress to pass the rescue plan for the financial sector.
Richard S. Fuld Jr., chief executive officer of Lehman Brothers, declared to the committee "I take full responsibility for the decisions that I made and for the actions that I took." He defended his actions as "prudent and appropriate" based on information he had at the time.
"I feel horrible about what happened," he said.
Waxman questioned Fuld on whether it was true he took home some $480 million in compensation since 2000, and asked: "Is that fair?"
Fuld took off his glasses, held them, and looked uncomfortable. He said his compensation was not quite that much.
"We had a compensation committee that spent a tremendous amount of time making sure that the interests of the executives and the employees were aligned with shareholders," he said. Fuld said he took home over $300 million in those years - some $60 million in cash compensation.
Waxman read excerpts from Lehman documents in which a recommendation that top management should forgo bonuses was apparently brushed aside. He also cited a Sept. 11 request to Lehman's compensation board that three executives leaving the company be given $20 million in "special payments."
"In other words, even as Mr. Fuld was pleading with Secretary Paulson for a federal rescue, Lehman continued to squander millions on executive compensation," Waxman said before Fuld appeared as a witness.
The government let Lehman go under Sept. 15, only to bail out insurance giant American International Group the next day, in a cascading series of financial shocks and failures that put Washington on track for the multibillion-dollar rescue starting the end of that week.
Waxman described that plan as a life-support measure. "It may keep our economy from collapsing but it won't make it healthy again," he said.
That sentiment echoed on Wall Street, where the Dow Jones industrials sank below 10,000 on Monday for the first time in four years. Investors fear the crisis will weigh down the global economy and the bailout won't work quickly to loosen credit markets.
The rescue plan, now law, was so rushed that the usual congressional scrutiny is only coming now, after the fact.
"Although it comes too late to help Lehman Brothers, the so-called bailout program will have to make wrenching choices, picking winners and losers from a shattered and fragile economic landscape," said Rep. Tom Davis of Virginia, the committee's senior Republican.
Waxman said that in January, Fuld and his board were warned the company's "liquidity can disappear quite fast."
Despite that warning, he said, "Mr. Fuld depleted Lehman's capital reserves by over $10 billion through year-end bonuses, stock buybacks, and dividend payments."
Waxman quoted Fuld as saying in one document, "Don't worry" to the suggestion that executives go without bonuses.
That suggestion came from Lehman's money management subsidiary, Neuberger Berman. Waxman quoted George H. Walker, President Bush's cousin and a Lehman executive who oversaw some Neuberger Berman employees, as responding with a dismissive tone to the idea of going without bonuses.
"Sorry team," he wrote to the executive committee, according to Waxman. "I'm not sure what's in the water at 605 Third Avenue today.... I'm embarrassed and I apologize."
Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., said: "I wonder how he sleeps at night."
Fuld said in his statement that the company did everything it could to limits its risks and save itself.
"In the end, despite all our efforts, we were overwhelmed, others were overwhelmed, and still other institutions would have been overwhelmed had the government not stepped in to save them," he said.
By MarketWatch Last update: 10:51 p.m. EDT Oct. 8, 2008Comments: 291SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- In another attempt to loosen credit markets and restore confidence in the financial system, the Treasury Department is considering a plan to take ownership stakes in many U.S. banks, both healthy and troubled, according to a media report Wednesday night. Treasury officials say the just-passed $700 billion bailout bill gives them the authority to inject cash directly into banks that request it, and the right to take ownership positions in those banks, the New York Times reported in its online edition in a story citing unnamed government officials. Such a move would quickly strengthen banks' balance sheets and, officials hope, persuade them to resume lending, the Times said. The Treasury plan, still preliminary, resembles one announced on Wednesday in the U.K. See story The American recapitalization plan, officials say, has emerged as one of the most favored new options being discussed in Washington and on Wall Street, according to the Times. The gloomy market response to Wednesday's globally coordinated interest rate cuts by central banks sent policy makers and outside experts on a scramble for additional remedies to stabilize the banks and reassure investors, the Times said. Treasury officials worry that aggressive government purchases, if not done properly, could alarm bank shareholders by appearing to be punitive or could be interpreted by the market as a sign that target banks were failing, the Times said. The idea is gaining support even among longtime Republican policy makers who have spent most of their careers defending laissez-faire economic policies, according to the report.
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