Back to Story - Help Armed killings cost nations billions of dollars By ELIANE ENGELER, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 37 minutes ago
The United States leads the world in economic loss from deaths caused by armed crime, according to a global survey released Friday.
The U.S. registered an estimated loss of up to $45.1 billion in terms of economic productivity because of violent crimes, said the report by the U.N. Development Program and the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey.
At least 490,000 people are killed in armed crimes each year worldwide, placing a huge economic cost and social burden on nations, the report said.
The report did not give a country-by-country breakdown of the numbers of people killed in armed crimes.
But the report said that Colombia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Jamaica and South Africa are among the countries with the highest numbers of recorded violent crimes in the world.
More people are killed worldwide in violent crimes every year than in wars, it said, asserting that the phenomenon of armed killings and its economic impact on nations is largely underreported.
In the 90 countries surveyed, the economic cost from people killed by arms each year is estimated to total between $95 billion and $163 billion, according to the report.
"These estimates are based on calculations of the 'lost product' that is represented by premature deaths from armed violence," said Achim Wennmann of the Small Arms Survey.
"These people — had they lived — would have contributed as any other individual as productive members of society. Their deaths represent a loss that can be quantified," he told The Associated Press.
The cost arising from these deaths includes a wide range of expenses from medical care, legal proceedings, and lost earnings to lost investment, the 162-page report said.
Wennmann said the report was based on figures compiled by international organizations and national authorities. The most recent available statistics from all the 90 countries surveyed were from 2004, said Wennmann, one of the editors of the report.
He said they had more recent statistics from North America.
In 2007, the region lost up to $46.76 billion from armed violence, he said. The vast majority of that loss — up to $44.8 billion — occurred in the United States, said Wennmann.
Guatemala — which has a high rate of violent crime but a smaller population and a much lower GDP than the United States — the cost of armed violence was estimated to be nearly $2.4 billion in 2005, the latest year of data available, the report said. The figure includes health expenses, security costs, impact on investment and material losses.
Cecile Molinier, who directs the U.N. Development Program's office in Geneva, said armed violence is an obstacle in the fight against poverty.
"It tears apart the social fabric of communities, creates fear and insecurity, destroys human and social capital and undermines development," she said.
Among the 90 countries are nations from every continent, including Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Ethiopia, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Nigeria, Russia and the United States.
The report was written for the secretariat of the 2006 Geneva Declaration on Armed Violence and Development — a document signed by 94 states that have pledged to work toward reducing the number of violent crimes.
The United States is not a signatory of the declaration.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:These people — had they lived — would have contributed as any other individual as productive members of society.
Well, we know that this report doesn't apply to the United States. In the US, the majority of crime is deadbeat on deadbeat crime, and these criminals certainly are not "productive members of society".
Posted by bdgee on :
The majority of crime that is acted on by the police "is deadbeat on deadbeat crime"..
We ignore real crimes that have really serious effect on society, mostly because we encourage our prosecutors to ignore crime committed by those who are capable of mounting a significant defense, particularly if they have sufficient power or funding or backing to mount a full publicity campaign again the officials.
Also, prosecutors soon realize that the rate of success in getting convictions from those arrest made is about all the public will see when reelection time comes round (particularly that part of the public that is of the right-wing). So, it makes perfect sense to them to do ones best to only allow "crime (that) is deadbeat on deadbeat crime" to come to fruition.
(Just look at the fact that dubya isn't being impeached and his various cronies are, essentially, guaranteed to go without punishment. Fat cats are immune!)
Posted by glassman on :
speaking of white collar crime?
this is getting almost no mention at all while all of these financial institutions are in danger of collapse:
$10b for Enron victims 4:00AM Thursday Sep 11, 2008
HOUSTON - Enron shareholders and investors will split about US$7 billion from financial institutions accused of participating in the fraud that caused the once-mighty energy company to collapse.
The settlement amount was listed at US$7.2 billion ($10.8 billion), a sum that has been accruing interest since 2002 and includes US$688 million plus interest in legal fees.
Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, who had previously filed court briefs in support of plaintiffs' claims, also objected to the fees.
"Attorney General Abbott continues to object to giving millions of dollars to plaintiff lawyers when that money should go to the hardworking men and women who suffered from Enron's demise," said Jerry Strickland, a spokesman for Abbott's office.
The fees are the largest in history in a US securities fraud case.
The distribution plan was part of a US$40 billion lawsuit filed by shareholders and investors, who claim Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase & Co., Citigroup and others participated in the accounting fraud that led to Enron's downfall. Posted by bdgee on :
Remember, Both Delay and Gramm had a wife getting over $250,000 per year to be on but never attend meetings of the Enron board of directors.
(Let me see, now, do I recall correctly that someone with those two names are listed as principal advisers for the McCain campaign????)
Posted by bond006 on :
Crime in this country is accepted as long as it is done against the poor and it stays in the poors neighborhood.
In this country fighting poverty is the main part of the fight.
You will always have crime but it can be controled to a certain degree
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:Crime in this country is accepted as long as it is done against the poor and it stays in the poors neighborhood.
That's true, but why? Why do the poor accept this nonsense?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:Crime in this country is accepted as long as it is done against the poor and it stays in the poors neighborhood.
That's true, but why? Why do the poor accept this nonsense?
why do the poor accept being poor?
this may come as a shock to you but the average IQ in the US is 100...
people with above average IQ's choose their life path (for the most part) people with IQ's above 130 don't really even need much training. they are basically able to do most any job and train themselves to do it...
people with below average IQ's need people with higher IQ's to "look out" for them, that's probably the largest part of Christ's Teachings....
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:Crime in this country is accepted as long as it is done against the poor and it stays in the poors neighborhood.
That's true, but why? Why do the poor accept this nonsense?
why do the poor accept being poor?
this may come as a shock to you but the average IQ in the US is 100...
people with above average IQ's choose their life path (for the most part) people with IQ's above 130 don't really even need much training. they are basically able to do most any job and train themselves to do it...
people with below average IQ's need people with higher IQ's to "look out" for them, that's probably the largest part of Christ's Teachings....
Come on glass. Don't shortchange those with below average IQ's. Heck, they can become President if they have enough money!
Posted by bdgee on :
And Confusious' teachings, too.
And Mohamed's and Moses and- - -
The milk of human kindness is not a wholly ( or even holy) owned Christian property, contrary to republican propaganda.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:Crime in this country is accepted as long as it is done against the poor and it stays in the poors neighborhood.
That's true, but why? Why do the poor accept this nonsense?
why do the poor accept being poor?
this may come as a shock to you but the average IQ in the US is 100...
people with above average IQ's choose their life path (for the most part) people with IQ's above 130 don't really even need much training. they are basically able to do most any job and train themselves to do it...
people with below average IQ's need people with higher IQ's to "look out" for them, that's probably the largest part of Christ's Teachings....
Come on glass. Don't shortchange those with below average IQ's. Heck, they can become President if they have enough money!
Or if they get tied on to a campaign as a VP candidate and the old guy dies, like he probably would.
Did any of you notice that Spiro Agnew's experience when appointed by tricky Dick was about the same as Palin's now?
Didn't work out so well that time.....
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: And Confusious' teachings, too.
And Mohamed's and Moses and- - -
The milk of human kindness is not a wholly ( or even holy) owned Christian property, contrary to republican propaganda.
true,
all groups pick and choose which tenets they wish to emphasize...
all three religions, Judaism, Christianity and Muslim, proscribe usury...
and yet? we can currently blame almost all of our current economic problems directly to the practice....
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep.
Just listened to a news show on CNN telling how the current housing bubble was started by dubya's "ownership movement", which had, built in as a fundamental precept, a total lack and absence of regulation and oversight for the mortgage industry, guaranteeing that it would fail, not be recoverable except by the government taking over and using the public's money to buy it out of the inevitable bubble, then carving it into smaller unit and farming it out as several new privately held businesses, so that the public pays all loses and the really huge big time investor make a profit whether or not it i in recession or not.
Thus, I would add the absurd Utopian fiction of a fair and functional free market to your note that usury is to blame (and the shear stupidity of dubya and the quasi-repulicans ).
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:Thus, I would add the absurd Utopian fiction of a fair and functional free market to your note that usury is to blame
The free market wasn't to blame. Quite the contrary, it was Bush's 'ownership movement' that encouraged banks to loan money to people who weren't qualified. It is also not the free market that is bailing them out. In other words, government interference with the free market caused the bubble and government interference has now bailed it out at the taxpayer's expense, or more precisely at every citizen's expense through the invisible tax of inflation.
Posted by bdgee on :
hahahahaha
You really are a nin-com-poop. Nin for ninny, com for completely irrational and poop for brains.
(Did ya ever check into what Keno sabe really means, Lone Ranger, did ya ever?)
Of course the free market is not "bailing them out", you dim....
We, the people, with our money are.
The free market does nothing responsible....ever.
The free market is a pie in the sky dream of simple minded fools, just like Communism. (Which, by the way IS NOT a synonym for socialism, just like "free market" is not synonym for "Ballanced Economy".)
Ha there been even little oversight on the free market, particularly th part th is the mortgage lending industry, this economy would not be the mess that it is.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Had the free market been allowed to work, the bubble would never have occurred. Even after it did, if the free market were allowed to work, the offending companies would have failed; the investors would have lost every penny; and a powerful moral message would have been sent that these risky business practices result in failure.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Had the free market been allowed to work, the bubble would never have occurred. Even after it did, if the free market were allowed to work, the offending companies would have failed; the investors would have lost every penny; and a powerful moral message would have been sent that these risky business practices result in failure.
it is true that Bush pushed the "ownership economy" but the driving force behind his "plan" was to reduce regulation thereby increasing the freedom of the market...
you now see the results...
it appears that you really don't understand why the market is failing...
nobody will lend each other moeny anymore because they don't trust each others colateral.
the FED is the only place that will lend money now...
that's free-market... free to decide not to lend...
i don't know how you manage to twist all this stuff around to make it sound good to yourself, but i assure you that people are laughing at you....
you claim to be a real estate mogul of some sort yet you don't even realise that the bailouts are there to keep the value of your real estate from being cut in half...
if there's a moral lesson in this, it's that lack of regulation leads to excessive risk taking.
and of course when X is taking a big risk, Y must take a bigger one to make more money; pretty soon? everybody is being stupid..
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:you claim to be a real estate mogul of some sort yet you don't even realise that the bailouts are there to keep the value of your real estate from being cut in half...
LOL! I have never claimed any such thing and the value of my rentals in the short term is totally irrelevant to me. If the value was cut in half, I would still make the exact same amount of money each month.
quote:if there's a moral lesson in this, it's that lack of regulation leads to excessive risk taking.
The moral lesson is that failing to allow the free market to work will result in a disaster each and every time.
Posted by jordanreed on :
anyone here to defend PMS yet?...anyone?,,,,,anyone?
not much time left ,PMS.... You'll be gone soon anyhow.
Posted by glassman on :
If the value was cut in half, I would still make the exact same amount of money each month.
LOL... really? you might be a property manager, but you obviously aren't an owner. how much do they pay you?...
The moral lesson is that failing to allow the free market to work will result in a disaster each and every time.
i believe you are the only person in the world who thinks this market we are in was caused by lack of a free market....
that either makes you a genius or a complete moron... hmmmm...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:that either makes you a genius or a complete moron... hmmmm...
Thank you, but I think all conservatives understand that.
quote:If the value was cut in half, I would still make the exact same amount of money each month.
LOL... really? you might be a property manager, but you obviously aren't an owner. how much do they pay you?...
You clearly don't understand the rental business. Rents don't change just because the market value is up or down. In fact, the bad market for homeowners actually has improved the rental market (more renters, less owners). It's that supply and demand thing!
Posted by jordanreed on :
that either makes you a genius or a complete moron... hmmmm... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you, but I think all conservatives understand that.
Posted by jordanreed on :
this is fun, eh PMS? can you feel the love? Posted by glassman on :
You clearly don't understand the rental business. Rents don't change just because the market value is up or down. In fact, the bad market for homeowners actually has improved the rental market (more renters, less owners). It's that supply and demand thing!
LOL. actually i do understand. in the rental business all of your profits are in the property value... loss in property value is loss...
i suppose you took the one minute to real estate riches course and that was covered in the 8th minute
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:in the rental business all of your profits are in the property value...
Property value won't even buy you a bag of McDonaldland cookies(unless you sell the property)!!! The profit is in the CASH FLOW and that doesn't change with the property value. You better stick to blowing glass - hopefully you have a better understanding of that business!
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Whoops.
Looks like he scored one on ya glass.
Posted by glassman on :
The profit is in the CASH FLOW and that doesn't change with the property value.
cash flow sounds nice...
but i look at the bottom line.
you claim you've been doing this for four years and you have several dozen properties...
that means you bought all your properties during the bubble...
even if you got a good deal on each property? you still have equity to worry about, and unless somebody else paid for them? it's your equity.
you may take cash flow out today, but when you do? it's gone. even if you bought them "below market"? you could only do that because nobody else wanted them, so if you aren't putting equity back in? nobody will ever want them anymore than you did... and if you are taking equity for yourself? then you aren't putting it back in...
Posted by jordanreed on :
try to keep up,PMS
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: try to keep up,PMS
i think relentless was right, he's a poser...
anybody that isn't worried about the real value of "several dozen" properties? is not the owner..
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Had the free market been allowed to work, the bubble would never have occurred. Even after it did, if the free market were allowed to work, the offending companies would have failed; the investors would have lost every penny; and a powerful moral message would have been sent that these risky business practices result in failure.
Would that the market actually worked, you would have neither Bic razors nor ... nuclear power.
The "throw-away" economy is based entirely on (a) ignoring the cradle-to-grave cost of a given product/system (b) institutional subsidies for programs that most benefit the elite.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:even if you got a good deal on each property? you still have equity to worry about, and unless somebody else paid for them? it's your equity
Actually, I NEVER worry about the equity. I don't have any plans to ever sell the property and over the long term, the property will probably appreciate anyway.
quote:you may take cash flow out today, but when you do? it's gone.
Are you sure that you're in business? Cash flow is the money left over each month after the expenses and debt are paid. In the rental property business, the cash flow is determined by subtracting the operating expenses and debt payment from the rent. I do spend some of the cash flow each month: to eat, for personal bills, to make the house payment; to go camping, etc. Contrary to your claim, there will be more next month!
The same thing is true in your business. If you're making money, then you too should have positive cash flow and that should occur every month. Seriously, you might want to take a basic business course. These concepts are the most basic components of every business.
Posted by jordanreed on :
watch out, PMS...the axe is gonna drop again! Posted by bdgee on :
I wonder?
It must be really bad to be so pitifully stupid that you imagine you understand things you can't and, on top of that, to be uniformly despised, because you are such an arrogant simple minded hateful jerk.
I'd ask someone that would and could know, but PM would only regurgitate some memorized hateful insults he garners via th right-wing propaganda machine and never understand what my question was and, thus, provide me with no information.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:It must be really bad to be so pitifully stupid that you imagine you understand things you can't and, on top of that, to be uniformly despised, because you are such an arrogant simple minded hateful jerk.
I'd ask someone that would and could know, but PM would only regurgitate some memorized hateful insults he garners via th right-wing propaganda machine and never understand what my question was and, thus, provide me with no information.
You truly are the King of GIBBERISH!
Posted by bdgee on :
Are you really too dumb to know no one can stomach you?
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: if there's a moral lesson in this, it's that lack of regulation leads to excessive risk taking.
It's exactly what I been preaching all along.... I'm not for overregulation but I do believe in some regulation for most if not all industries or at the very least the ones that affect our economy more then others like the financial and banking industries etc... as well as food industries... etc..
I always say that regulation is Reactive.... and this is why... when deregulation happens, greed rears it's ugly face and disaster happens... we are the one country where the saying of below never applies:
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Posted by glassman on :
Cash flow is the money left over each month after the expenses and debt are paid. In the rental property business, the cash flow is determined by subtracting the operating expenses and debt payment from the rent.
really? gosh, thanx for the update. is that in the first half of the one minute to real estate riches or the second half? seriously dude, i've read several thousand quarterly reports (10Q's) this year...
i wouldn't know depreciation from amitorization
one thing i do know is how much paint costs...
i know how to properly prepare a "unit" for turnover, and that's one months rent... taxes? that's another months rent...insurance, another month... yearly interest? six to nine months... you are lucky to pull one month a year "cash flow" from a reasonably maintained halfway decent property... i hear that in the slums they just pocket the cash flow and forget about the "unimportant stuff"
no wonder you complain so damn much about your tennants being stupid and lazy... they're the only people that would pay your rent if you aren't taking care of your property...
Posted by bdgee on :
You are arguing with a fence post, glass.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:seriously dude, i've read several thousand quarterly reports (10Q's) this year...
I don't know what that has to do with the fact that you don't know what cash flow is or that you thought that once you "pulled out" cash flow, it is gone. That just shows a misunderstanding of the most basic financial elements of running a business.
quote:you are lucky to pull one month a year "cash flow" from a reasonably maintained halfway decent property...
Actually, if you do everything right, in most non-bubble areas you can generate about $100 per unit per month in positive cash flow. In addition, you can EARN another $100 + dollars per month by doing the management and maintenance yourself. So, the per unit spendable cash each month is relatively low. That is why you need a lot of units to live off the cash flow. THAT IS THE RENTAL BUSINESS!
[/quote]i hear that in the slums they just pocket the cash flow and forget about the "unimportant stuff"[/quote]
All of my rentals are properly maintained. Since you like to quote from my website and ****, you already know that. In addition, all Section 8 rentals have a HUD inspection before the initial lease-up and then every year thereafter. My properties almost always pass the first time, which is rare in the Section 8 business.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
There is VERY little positive cash flow in the rental business PM...VERY LITTLE if any.
I have owned many rental properties, and how I made money in that business was when I SOLD those properties after they appreciated in value...not from the rental income.
You are either FOS or just plain stupid if you state that you are not concerned about your properties values...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:There is VERY little positive cash flow in the rental business PM...VERY LITTLE if any.
That's because you paid too much for your properties. You can not pay retail for rental properties and expect them to cash flow.
quote:I have owned many rental properties, and how I made money in that business was when I SOLD those properties after they appreciated in value...not from the rental income.
That's not the rental business, that's what is called speculation. In the rental business, we make money via cash flow, not appreciation.
As I said, I am not the least bit concerned about the property values. Whether they go up, down, or stay the same, the cash flow doesn't change and I have no plans to EVER sell the properties.
Posted by jordanreed on :
Thats not true... you're gonna sell em,, and at a nice profit.....and thats GOOD!
real estate is a nice venture. good job P.M.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:There is VERY little positive cash flow in the rental business PM...VERY LITTLE if any.
That's because you paid too much for your properties. You can not pay retail for rental properties and expect them to cash flow.
quote:I have owned many rental properties, and how I made money in that business was when I SOLD those properties after they appreciated in value...not from the rental income.
That's not the rental business, that's what is called speculation. In the rental business, we make money via cash flow, not appreciation.
As I said, I am not the least bit concerned about the property values. Whether they go up, down, or stay the same, the cash flow doesn't change and I have no plans to EVER sell the properties.
Actually, PM, you are not in the rental business.
You are in the business of gathering money into your own accounts via abuse of government assistance programs for the needy.
You are little more than a blood sucking leach, bleeding the economy for your own sake.
Posted by jordanreed on :
but thats not a bad thing.... he's just got to get off his high horse and admit it!
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:There is VERY little positive cash flow in the rental business PM...VERY LITTLE if any.
That's because you paid too much for your properties. You can not pay retail for rental properties and expect them to cash flow.
quote:I have owned many rental properties, and how I made money in that business was when I SOLD those properties after they appreciated in value...not from the rental income.
That's not the rental business, that's what is called speculation. In the rental business, we make money via cash flow, not appreciation.
As I said, I am not the least bit concerned about the property values. Whether they go up, down, or stay the same, the cash flow doesn't change and I have no plans to EVER sell the properties.
Wrong as usual...I bought years ago and sold when real estate values peaked....I made next to nothing while owning them...that's the nature of that business.
Posted by bdgee on :
Have any of the rest of you noted that no matter what the topic of a thread, it seems always to be altered to PM lecturing on how to use the slum lord business to collect government funds and declaring that that process amounts, in his brand of skewed logic, to some sort of proof that the free market IS christianity (the least tolerant varieties) and is the only religion that the Constitution allows?
Posted by glassman on :
Wrong as usual...I bought years ago and sold when real estate values peaked....I made next to nothing while owning them...that's the nature of that business.
i'm one of those people that fixes just about anything found in residential properties or commercail/light industrial except for air conditioning compressors and heat exchangers... and totally agree that if you aren't willing to do all of that work? you are going to have negative cash flow. (i'mnot good at carpet installation either)
in order for PM's "plan" to work, (i again point out that PM says this too) he pays "less than retail" and i know very well what this means.
he convinces himself that he's getting a bargain.
the thing is? there's no such thing as "less than retail" in real estate...
real estate is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it... (just like stocks).
there are plenty crooked bankers and mortgage brokers and appraisers that are happy to adjust the values on paper to obtain loans...
as a matter of fact? that is a considerable portion of the problem we are in today.
you see the same thing in the used car business too..
a banker will give a dealer a large line of revolving credit, say 1$,000,000.
the dealer buys cars at auction for "less than retail"...(this is a real thing in the used car business)
the dealer then turns around sell the junkers on the "pay here" plan...
that keeps the used cars on the books under his larger revolving credit account...
the dealer still owns the cars and collects the payments themselves.. they make their credit payment to the bank in one lump sum...
on three separate occasions? i repoed the whole car dealers inventory when they got behind on their payments, OR in one case they failed to maintain the agreed upon amount of collateral on their inventory.
while used cars and real estate are not the same? there are quite a few similarities...
PM admits he operates in the worst areas, which means he is buying RE that nobody else wants... and of course he says he will never sell, he likes having his "bottom of the barrel" (buy here pay here) tennants to look down upon and complain about... makes him feel good about himself...
Posted by bdgee on :
"while used cars and real estate are not the same? there are quite a few similarities..."
Yep.
Once they were "horse traders".
Always they are only interested in what they can get out of your pocket, honestly or not.
Bet, with either long or short odds, on any single thing any one of them says being fictitious and self serving and you will generally make a good profit. Not just things they say in their sales pitches, the tendency is systemic and pervades their ever constant atmosphere, like the oder downwind of a privy tells you where it is.
(The easiest route to understanding why Faulkner won the Nobel is to read some of his tales of horse traders.)
Posted by retiredat49 on :
I am a licensed building contractor and I too did all of my own maintenance, repairs, updates, and management.
I also bought at the right time...
But....there are a few items that PM has left out of his profit/loss equation that most certainly exist in the rental business....things like:
Non payment of rent....By the time you get a non-paying tenant evicted, you have lost at least 2 months rent, that I guarantee you will NEVER recover.....this is the single largest expense that most rental property owners don't count on when determining profit & loss. This alone ate up nearly ALL of my monthly profits.
Destruction of property.... I can tell you horror stories about how some of my properties were literally destroyed by renters before they moved on....way beyond carpet & paint...this cost actually put me in the "red" as far as monthly profit/loss goes.
Court Costs....landlords have to pay all court costs up front to get a tenant evicted. Again a cost that you will NEVER recover.
The ONLY profit in the rental business is if you buy and sell at the right times...
Posted by jordanreed on :
![[BadOne]](graemlins/headbash.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)