after watching so far? i've come to only one conclusion: McCain is running against Bush too Posted by wallymac on :
I'm dumbfounded. They are currently talking about how the Democratic ticket has zero years of executive goverance.
Hasn't John McCain only been a senator?
According to what I'm hearing Sarah Palin should be the candidate for president because according to their logic McCain isn't qualified either.
Oh, and one other thing. Bush was Governor of Texas, look where that got us.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: after watching so far? i've come to only one conclusion: McCain is running against Bush too :rolleyes:
Yep, that's about the only wise decision he has mde.....
Wouldn't you?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Giuliani tearing it up! What a pit bull! I loved his speech. Palin....lookin sexy! Lets see what she has to say
Posted by Propertymanager on :
WOW! Is Palin kicking butt!
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Her energy approach is sound and appropriate, and her remarks about the opponent are rather humerous in regards to sheep and self designed presidential seals.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Her energy approach is sound and appropriate, and her remarks about the opponent are rather humerous in regards to sheep and self designed presidential seals.
"Sound and appropriate"? How's that, when they are just a rehash of the same fictions and fallacies that have gotten us into this mess to start with?
Posted by glassman on :
LOL... pit bull with lipstick indeed..
if the GOP is gonna have her dishing it out like that? then the ladies are going to have to get used to getting some fastballs themselves..
i don't think she has a clue what McCain has set her up for...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Game, Set, Match for McCain/Palin! Even the liberal media on CNN was stunned by her excellent performance. Osama made a HUGE mistake when he didn't take Hillary as his running mate. That was a mistake of MONUMENTAL proportions. When Campbell Brown on CNN is talking nice about Palin, you KNOW that the dems are in big trouble.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
She should handle domestic policy while McCain handles foreign.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Game, Set, Match for McCain/Palin! Even the liberal media on CNN was stunned by her excellent performance. Osama made a HUGE mistake when he didn't take Hillary as his running mate. That was a mistake of MONUMENTAL proportions. When Campbell Brown on CNN is talking nice about Palin, you KNOW that the dems are in big trouble.
i bet Hillary gets involved now... she's the likely Dem to go after her....
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Game, Set, Match for McCain/Palin! Even the liberal media on CNN was stunned by her excellent performance. Osama made a HUGE mistake when he didn't take Hillary as his running mate. That was a mistake of MONUMENTAL proportions. When Campbell Brown on CNN is talking nice about Palin, you KNOW that the dems are in big trouble.
Really, She gave a speech. Is that all it takes? I agree she did it well but the true test has not yet begun.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Oh what a catfight that would be...H. Clinton and Palin? OoOOOooooo it would get nasty! I love it!
Posted by bdgee on :
"i don't think she has a clue what McCain has set her up for..."
I don't think she has clue, period....and it doesn't matter if someone else set her up or not.
Moreover:
" She's the governor of Alaska -- a state with a population of 670,000. Her entire state has about as many people as Memphis, Tennessee, the country's 17th-largest city.
So, 16 U.S. mayors -- including Dallas' very own Republican, Tom Leppert -- have more constituents than Sarah Palin. Of course, she has her own mayoral pedigree, in Wasilla, Alaska, population 8,500." (http://dallasmorningviews****.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/08/governor-of-ala.h tml)
Also, there are 75 "counties" in the country with more population than Alaska! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._counties_by_population), Most Of those have financial restrictions and problems that Alaska doesn't have and certainly with gang and racial problems to deal with that Alaska doesn't have.
Posted by glassman on :
i guess the next big event is the shotgun wedding?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Not to worry, Hillary will be largely quiet from this point forward. She will only do what benefits her from a PR standpoint, but make no mistake - Hillary would like Obama to lose in a BIG WAY! She still wants to be president and Obama's failure will speed that along. You can be sure that Bill and Hillary will do everything possible to ensure that happens.
Posted by jordanreed on :
so...you've talked to hillary , lately?
Posted by bdgee on :
He talks to God, sort of like dubya does. Gets direct massages and has an instantaneous question and answer hot-line to heaven. (At least he believes it is God. Actually, it is any hard line out of touch with reality far right-wing extremist radio loudmouth or the RNC talking points. whichever comes first.)
Posted by Propertymanager on :
No, didn't need God to tell me that Hillary wants Osama Obama to lose. That's just common sense (something we still have here in the midwest).
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: No, didn't need God to tell me that Hillary wants Osama Obama to lose. That's just common sense (something we still have here in the midwest).
except, thats not common sense...thats PMS lack of sense
Posted by bdgee on :
Hmmmm???
Maybe I miscalculated.
HE THINKS HE IS GOD.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
My point exactly - you guys are nothing by gibberish and childish attacks? Got ANYTHING useful to say?
Posted by bdgee on :
hahahahaha
Yep.
HE THINKS HE IS GOD.
And, when that is pointed out, replies with, "My point exactly".
In addition to thinking he is God, he is a crude name calling hypocrite.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Anything intelligent to say Bdgee? Anything?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: My point exactly - you guys are nothing by gibberish and childish attacks? Got ANYTHING useful to say?
i see that Palin is like crack to you PM...
you and half the conventioneers.
her speech was "electrifying" to some people.
but i have news for you.
it is not electrifying to the last 10% McCain needs to win the election.
as a matter of fact? if Mccain needed to rally his own conventioneers in this way? he had already lost.
the mere fact that you feel compelled to call Obama names every time you mention his shows that we are dealing at the Jr High level.
in the next few weeks? Palin will be dimsantled and sent back to Alaska.
she's left too many enemies who have been quiet since small town politics is often face to face combat. she's moved into the biggest arena, and the first thing she did was attack the media.
Ronald Reagan never attacked the media on his way up. That's something you ONLY do after you've been elected, and you don't have to run again.
McCain needed a pitbull with lipstick, he got one. The problem with dogfighting is, well, have you ever seen a dog after one?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Glass, you don't seem to understand what happened last night. Palin's speech picked up not only the base but the female vote! Even the left leaning women on CNN liked her. Osama Obama is in a lot of trouble.
Posted by wallymac on :
You keep saying that she picked up the female vote. How do you know this? I cannot see any woman voting for her just because she is a woman, especially when her views on women's issue are completely different than most other than the far right.
She spoke to the evangelical right last night. Besides which women in this country aren't as stupid as you and many in the far right believe. They will not make a decision based on one speech given at a Republican Convention.
She proved that given 4 days in seclusion she can learn how to give a speech on a national stage and continue the same type of politically divisive rherotic that has been used for years.
Liking a person and actually voting for them are 2 completely different things. I don't disllike her at all, I like John McCain the man but my vote will be based on who has the best plan to get this country out of the mess we are in.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Glass, you don't seem to understand what happened last night. Palin's speech picked up not only the base but the female vote! Even the left leaning women on CNN liked her. Osama Obama is in a lot of trouble.
yes i do know what happened last night PM...
i grew up in a very political family...
my father was the mayor of a town about the size of the town she was...(and president of the county young republicans etc)
i know exactly what her kids are going thru, i went thru it myself...
right now? the Democrats are spending a ton of CASH interviewing every single person in her town and every person that ever hinted of having a grudge with her, and there's plenty. they are combing thru her whole families finances. including her sister who is starting the gas station....
you have no idea what she did last night. she bought herself more greif than she could ever imagine...
and i had already read enough to know that she has plenty to hide before that speech last night. watch, you'll see..
you don't pee on the media on your first date...
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Anything intelligent to say Bdgee? Anything?
Yep, PM is a tactless name calling insulting jerk, with hardly a grain of intellect and not even that much manners.
Posted by bdgee on :
"pee on the media on your first date..."
She did? Does she reserve that sort of thing only for the media?
Maybe I'm miss judging the chick. Bit of the kink in the lass, ya say? A fun date!
Wonder if her dance card is filled up?
Posted by glassman on :
LOL. budge, i'm serious, McCains prep people threw her right into the pit.
she comes from a state where the GOP is and has been in charge for years. all of her experience is in-fighting within her own party. Alaska politics do not equate to national politics in any way shape or form....
she has no idea what she's gotten herself into...
McCain picked her because he knows Obama and Biden can't attack her directly. remember when the "boys" attacked Hillary?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
You know, for all you Obama fans out there I have a serious question. Right now I am along with many others on the fence 50-50 with this election.
When it comes to Obama, why do you trust this guy? I mean seriously. No McCain slams, no Alaska jokes just Obama. What makes you so sure he is the savior of this nation.
Because I cant figure it out. He can give a good speech, he talks about change and everyone loves to hear it.
Was Alaska the 57th state?
Now if you ask me if I think McCain will really turn Washington upside down I would say no. Is Palin qualified to step in as President if this goes bad for McCain? No, and its just going to have to be another case of on the job training. However, I doubt she is going to let anyone push or boss her around! Ive said before...she is gorgeous and smiles a lot, but she also comes off as a woman who could turn from 0 to bitc% in 2 seconds!!!! So watch out!!!
Posted by bdgee on :
I agree with all you say, glass. She has no notion what she is in for. I don't think she even has a glimmer of why Mcbush actually picked her and truly believes her Alaska experience might parallel what is coming. Sad......so sad....
Now, though, do you have pen I can borrow, just in case that kinky lil' sweet thnaaag does maybe have an empty slot on that card? We can get back to being political after I've had a chance at researching her private techniques....heh heh heh .....
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: You know, for all you Obama fans out there I have a serious question. Right now I am along with many others on the fence 50-50 with this election.
When it comes to Obama, why do you trust this guy? I mean seriously. No McCain slams, no Alaska jokes just Obama. What makes you so sure he is the savior of this nation.
Because I cant figure it out. He can give a good speech, he talks about change and everyone loves to hear it.
Was Alaska the 57th state?
Now if you ask me if I think McCain will really turn Washington upside down I would say no. Is Palin qualified to step in as President if this goes bad for McCain? No, and its just going to have to be another case of on the job training. However, I doubt she is going to let anyone push or boss her around! Ive said before...she is gorgeous and smiles a lot, but she also comes off as a woman who could turn from 0 to bitc% in 2 seconds!!!! So watch out!!!
i'm more less where you are CCM...
i wanted Mccain back in '00 and couldn't figure out why Dubya was chosen.
now we are where we are.
i watched Obama's acceptance speech with young people from jr high to college age...
the youngest of the crew (jr high) said after the speech and i quote, "I like watching him give speeches, he makes me feel good." a few short questions told me that this person feels good about THEMSELF afterwards...
now, ask yourself? did you feel good abut yourself last night after Palins speech?
MCCain may be able to accomplish that tonight, but Palin didn't even try to go there last night...
that's the choice people have right now, and that's about it, i don't see much else to choose on...
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: You know, for all you Obama fans out there I have a serious question. Right now I am along with many others on the fence 50-50 with this election.
When it comes to Obama, why do you trust this guy? I mean seriously. No McCain slams, no Alaska jokes just Obama. What makes you so sure he is the savior of this nation.
Because I cant figure it out. He can give a good speech, he talks about change and everyone loves to hear it.
Was Alaska the 57th state?
Now if you ask me if I think McCain will really turn Washington upside down I would say no. Is Palin qualified to step in as President if this goes bad for McCain? No, and its just going to have to be another case of on the job training. However, I doubt she is going to let anyone push or boss her around! Ive said before...she is gorgeous and smiles a lot, but she also comes off as a woman who could turn from 0 to bitc% in 2 seconds!!!! So watch out!!!
I like you am still on the fence. To answer your question why I might lean toward Obama over McCain/Palin:
I would say based on what I've seen, read and researched that Obama is a Diplomat. That is something that has sadly been missing for quite a few years. I have never subscribed to the shoot first ask questions later theory. The McCain of today, if you believe his message recently, is in the mold of Bush. We are going to war and stay there until there is "Victory". There is such a thing as a shallow victory, where you win the war but lose more in winning it than you gain. From reading what both candidates will do on the economy, I feel Obama has a better plan. Yes it might hurt investor by raising the Capital gains but from what I see in the market not many people hold a stock for a year so we are already paying. I'm also in favor of taxing companies that outsource their labor overseas, which Obama supports. Outsourcing IMO, is no different than offshore tax havens. McCain is also supportive of a 50 cents a gallon tax on Gasoline over and above the taxes already paid on Gasoline. SO, IMO, that would pretty much offset his tax cuts.
IMO, the problems we are having in the World today with Russia, that Bush/Cheney are attempting to escalate, in the middle east and in south/central America are because we have not used enough diplomacy. We have in a sense told the world we are right and you are wrong. Today's world is different. It more of a Global economy, we need to attract more partners and less enemies. We already are giving huge amounts of money in forgein aid. The more we push our agenda overseas the more money we end up sending overseas. I'm not saying we become pushovers but that we give diplomacy a chance to work instead of ultimatums.
My reservations about Obama have been his lack of experience on the National level, well that is kind of moot now since McCain decided to put Palin on the ticket and created a very real possibility of her actually becoming President. He's 72 Yrs old. Yes his mother is doing fine in her 90's but she hasn't gone through the physical pain and suffering that he has. It does take a toll, especially when you add the pressure of the Presidency on top of that.
I doubt whether either candidate will dig us out of the hole we are in during their 4 yrs, it's just too deep. So I then have to make a decision of which will do the best job to recreate the image of America. In that respect I have to give the edge to Obama. That could change in the next few months.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
I have always voted Republican, but this election is really different and here is why:
McCain and Palin support the things I do such as domestic energy production on a higher scale, not raising taxes, pro-life, and protectors of gun owners among many other things. I feel very strongly about gun ownership as a people without arms are subject to just about anything as we have seen in the past. Remember, 2nd amendment was not about keeping guns to go hunting. It was about having the weapons to resist a tryannous government.
Obama...well he is new, fresh, and lacks experience. He has affiliations with people that quite frankly sicken me.
I think McCain would run the show differently than Bush. I would like to see conservatives get nominated on the supreme court. However, many things wouldnt change such as the economy.
Obama is the only one seeking something truly different. Which makes me want to vote for him so we get out of this Bush era. He has some very liberal policies that frighten me.
So now it comes down to this. Am I willing to sacrifice gun ownership beliefs, pro-life stances, and being subject to higher taxes all over the place in order for change to come about?
Or...do I give McCain a chance to weather this out and keep the nation safe against Russia and rogue areas. Keep my guns safe, keep unborn children safe from a scalpel and vacuum, and keep govt out of my check to pay for welfare programs.
Its tough to decide because what I think is most important is the economy right now. Getting the economy back on track would fix a lot of things...just about all the major problems actually. Stronger dollar should be what we seek, and I was upset that the speeches at the Republican convention have failed to address. Of course that would mean slamming Bush and you cant do that at a Republican convention.
Posted by glassman on :
He has some very liberal policies that frighten me.
me too...
add to that that he might even have 60 dem Senators to push his agenda...
i am not eh least bit worried about Russia making our nation unsafe tho... and to be honest? we have to honor our treaties, but agreeing to defend Georgia (adding them to NATO) is friggin NUTS!
we have no right or real interest in defending a nation of 4 million that shares over half it's border with Russia...
diplomacy is all about knowing what's worth fighting for BEFORE you even consider fighting...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
If Obama wins, you will have him, Pelosi, Hillary will be around somewhere. A Democrat senate and house.....man it could get ugly.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: He has some very liberal policies that frighten me.
me too...
add to that that he might even have 60 dem Senators to push his agenda...
i am not eh least bit worried about Russia making our nation unsafe tho... and to be honest? we have to honor our treaties, but agreeing to defend Georgia (adding them to NATO) is friggin NUTS!
we have no right or real interest in defending a nation of 4 million that shares over half it's border with Russia...
diplomacy is all about knowing what's worth fighting for BEFORE you even consider fighting...
Two points.
First, Georgia and Ukraine were being considered for NATO enrollment before this mess started.
Second, of course we should be supporting an ex-soviet satellite that has a common border with Russia.
Or should we just close our eyes and hope the bear goes back to sleep? I'm not saying poke the bear, but we can't turn a blind eye to fledgling democracies either IMO. Be them ex-soviet or not.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
The soviet bear has come out of hibernation...
Posted by wallymac on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CashCowMoo: " So now it comes down to this. Am I willing to sacrifice gun ownership beliefs, pro-life stances, and being subject to higher taxes all over the place in order for change to come about?
What makes you think that an Obama Presidency would end gun onwership? I doubt there will ever be a complete ban on gun ownership or for that matter that McCain if elected will outlaw abortion. These things can only happen if the votes are there in congress. I don't see either of those things happening anytime soon. Taxes are reality of life. Many Republicans have raised taxes both nationally and locally when it was necessary. Look at George Bush I and Ronald Reagan during his tenure as Governor of California. The bill needs to get paid somehow. We cannot keep borrowing money from China to run a deficit budget. G W Bush has cut taxes and look where we are. Now I know people want to blame the Dem's but they have only had the majority in congress since Jan of 07 so the problems we face today were made by REP as well.
As far as the Supreme Court, I believe that they should respresent the whole nation and not just one faction. How would a completely conservative court represent the nearly 50% of the population that doesn't agree with the social conservatives?
According to the constitution ALL AMERICANS should have rights in this country.
It's time to bring us together find solutions that both sides can live with. I know that is very idealistic but it should be what we strive for.
Posted by bdgee on :
There was, back during the French and Indian wars, a small contingent of extremely brave Colonials that walked hundreds of miles through the wilderness in winter to attack French outpost. They suffered terribly all along their march, then spent the entire night before reaching their goal wading through waist deep ice crusted swamps.
They were brilliantly successful, captured, without a fight, the French held fort, and were recognized as exceedingly brave and ultra-patriotic heroes for the rest of their too short lives.
Numerous studies, comparing them to the general population and to their sibling and neighbors have shown that the physical extremes to which they were subjected in order to reach that fort cut their lives to only a fraction of what was normal and left them with mental deficiencies and problems through what life they did get.
McCain suffered years of horrible torture and mental deprivation in Viet Nam and, I for only one, would be amazed if it didn't more than damaged him emotionally and cripple his mental facilities.
I don't care what his mother's genetic make up may be, genetic traits do not automatically transfer to offspring. Moreover, even if he got the "good" genes, he is a 72 year old that has suffered horribly, both mentally and physically and can be expected to show results from such experience.
A vote for McCain is probably putting a pop-tart Chaney-like loudmouth, experienced only very slightly in a politically, limited, local one party system, in control of your freedoms and security.
Posted by glassman on :
First, Georgia and Ukraine were being considered for NATO enrollment before this mess started.
Second, of course we should be supporting an ex-soviet satellite that has a common border with Russia.
this mess started because we were trying to add them to NATO...
do you understand what a NATO treaty actually means?
it means we agree to defend them with our blood.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: First, Georgia and Ukraine were being considered for NATO enrollment before this mess started.
Second, of course we should be supporting an ex-soviet satellite that has a common border with Russia.
this mess started because we were trying to add them to NATO...
do you understand what a NATO treaty actually means?
it means we agree to defend them with our blood.
I know it exactly what it means, but apparently you don't. You said "we" as in the USA only, that is wrong. Any NATO member that is attacked is defended by ALL NATO members glass, not just us.
Posted by glassman on :
true, but i haven't seen much NATO activity in the last 20 years that wasn't 75% or more US...
i'm not a Putin supporter, but it's no surprise that Putin is reacting the way he is.
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: He has some very liberal policies that frighten me.
me too...
add to that that he might even have 60 dem Senators to push his agenda...
i am not eh least bit worried about Russia making our nation unsafe tho... and to be honest? we have to honor our treaties, but agreeing to defend Georgia (adding them to NATO) is friggin NUTS!
we have no right or real interest in defending a nation of 4 million that shares over half it's border with Russia...
diplomacy is all about knowing what's worth fighting for BEFORE you even consider fighting...
Two points.
First, Georgia and Ukraine were being considered for NATO enrollment before this mess started.
Second, of course we should be supporting an ex-soviet satellite that has a common border with Russia.
Or should we just close our eyes and hope the bear goes back to sleep? I'm not saying poke the bear, but we can't turn a blind eye to fledgling democracies either IMO. Be them ex-soviet or not.
The Bear got poked because our ally had a false sense of security. When Iraq attacked Kuwait we responded and they aren't on our border. I mean I can't understand why it is so hard to understand that Russia was protecting interests on their border. I'm not saying that Russia is right in all they are doing but once again it is the lack of US diplomacy that creates some of these situations.
What about how the US breached the border of Pakistan without Pakistani approval.
What about how the US breached the border of Pakistan without Pakistani approval.
when Obama suggested we do that? EVERYBODY laughed at him...
now we are doing it... i have to say the guy seems to be correct more often than he is wrong...
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: true, but i haven't seen much NATO activity in the last 20 years that wasn't 75% or more US...
i'm not a Putin supporter, but it's no surprise that Putin is reacting the way he is.
And Putin needs to be "b-itch slapped". He is testing the waters to see if he will meet resistance in rebuilding the Iron Curtain. If you don't see that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by wallymac:
quote:Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: He has some very liberal policies that frighten me.
me too...
add to that that he might even have 60 dem Senators to push his agenda...
i am not eh least bit worried about Russia making our nation unsafe tho... and to be honest? we have to honor our treaties, but agreeing to defend Georgia (adding them to NATO) is friggin NUTS!
we have no right or real interest in defending a nation of 4 million that shares over half it's border with Russia...
diplomacy is all about knowing what's worth fighting for BEFORE you even consider fighting...
Two points.
First, Georgia and Ukraine were being considered for NATO enrollment before this mess started.
Second, of course we should be supporting an ex-soviet satellite that has a common border with Russia.
Or should we just close our eyes and hope the bear goes back to sleep? I'm not saying poke the bear, but we can't turn a blind eye to fledgling democracies either IMO. Be them ex-soviet or not.
The Bear got poked because our ally had a false sense of security. When Iraq attacked Kuwait we responded and they aren't on our border. I mean I can't understand why it is so hard to understand that Russia was protecting interests on their border. I'm not saying that Russia is right in all they are doing but once again it is the lack of US diplomacy that creates some of these situations.
What about how the US breached the border of Pakistan without Pakistani approval.
It's a clear land grab. And Russia flexing it's renewed oil/gas rich muscle.
Posted by glassman on :
i don't think we are in a position to do it Pagan.
i'm not defending Putin. i'm looking at the chess board unemotioanlly and i see his "game";
sadly? Bush has been playing checkers...
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: I agree with all you say, glass. She has no notion what she is in for. I don't think she even has a glimmer of why Mcbush actually picked her and truly believes her Alaska experience might parallel what is coming. Sad......so sad....
Now, though, do you have pen I can borrow, just in case that kinky lil' sweet thnaaag does maybe have an empty slot on that card? We can get back to being political after I've had a chance at researching her private techniques....heh heh heh .....
Bdgee your nothing but a sexist pig!
Posted by wallymac on :
Pagan,
I'd completely agree with you and think strong action should be taken if Russia had simply rolled in unprovoked. That's not the case. The President of Georgia, mistakenly thought he could retake a province that had broken away and supported Russia. Also part of the provocation was what we have been negotiating in Poland with Missile defense.
Let's push a bit hard and force their hand. Especially while our military is stretched so thin. What's another couple of wars. WE are not in the position of power since we have so many troops comitted to battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Glass is right, they are playing chess and we are playing checkers. We don't have the pawns, rooks and bishops, we are left wide open with a king and queen.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan: It's a clear land grab. And Russia flexing it's renewed oil/gas rich muscle.
Exactly and Putin is still KGB in mind if not body... they want all their former territories back and will look for excuses to get them back one by one... right now it's Georgia... next will be Ukraine if they join NATO... they already occupy Crimea in Ukraine... without any provocation whatsoever... I do not now why Putin does not just join NATO like they are part of the UN... no one is out to invade or attack Russia... he's either a paranoid person like Stalin and Hitler were or he is just a imperialist/dictator who wants as big an empire as possible... or both... these conflicts with Russia in that region has nothing to do with border interests...
Posted by glassman on :
he is just a imperialist/dictator who wants as big an empire as possible..
Cheney is over there right now meeting with oil co's...
Putin has become a capitalist in the Czarist tradition...
Putin just went and bagged himself a Tiger the other day...
tiger hunting was the sport of royalty...
Putin saves TV crew from Siberian tiger www.chinaview.cn 2008-09-01 20:31:08
Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin (L) holds a five-year-old tiger's head as scientists put on a collar with a satellite tracker on the animal in the academy of sciences Ussuri reserve in Russia's Far East, August 31, 2008. Putin was feted by Russian media on Sunday for saving a television crew from an attack by a Siberian tiger in the wilds of the Far East. (Xinhua/Reuters Photo)
that's who we are dealing with...
he understands media spin just as much as any US politician
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by wallymac: Pagan,
I'd completely agree with you and think strong action should be taken if Russia had simply rolled in unprovoked. That's not the case. The President of Georgia, mistakenly thought he could retake a province that had broken away and supported Russia.
What you don't understand is that the Russian backed Ossentia militia were ordered by Putin/Russia to cause a provocation to give Russia the excuse for their attack... they are looking for excuses left and right to get their territories back one by one.. next is Ukraine with their military in Crimea is Ukraine joins NATO and then after that Poland if they put our ineffective missiles there...
quote:Let's push a bit hard and force their hand. Especially while our military is stretched so thin. What's another couple of wars. WE are not in the position of power since we have so many troops comitted to battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yes, we should push hard but we don't because we are weak now and they/Putin sensed that and took advantage of our weakness... while they are finally strong after the yo yo years the 1990's for Russia...
quote:Glass is right, they are playing chess and we are playing checkers. We don't have the pawns, rooks and bishops, we are left wide open with a king and queen.
Yes, they are playing chess and they play dirty with behind the scenes sheninagans... do not think this Georgia situation is straightforward... they manipulated Georgia to attack Ossentia so they could invade Georgia and justify it...
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: I agree with all you say, glass. She has no notion what she is in for. I don't think she even has a glimmer of why Mcbush actually picked her and truly believes her Alaska experience might parallel what is coming. Sad......so sad....
Now, though, do you have pen I can borrow, just in case that kinky lil' sweet thnaaag does maybe have an empty slot on that card? We can get back to being political after I've had a chance at researching her private techniques....heh heh heh .....
Bdgee your nothing but a sexist pig!
Well, come on in the sty and enjoy the mud and the kinky chicks. A good time will be had by all!
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: he is just a imperialist/dictator who wants as big an empire as possible..
Cheney is over there right now meeting with oil co's...
Putin has become a capitalist in the Czarist tradition...
Putin just went and bagged himself a Tiger the other day...
tiger hunting was the sport of royalty...
Putin saves TV crew from Siberian tiger www.chinaview.cn 2008-09-01 20:31:08
Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin (L) holds a five-year-old tiger's head as scientists put on a collar with a satellite tracker on the animal in the academy of sciences Ussuri reserve in Russia's Far East, August 31, 2008. Putin was feted by Russian media on Sunday for saving a television crew from an attack by a Siberian tiger in the wilds of the Far East. (Xinhua/Reuters Photo)
that's who we are dealing with...
he understands media spin just as much as any US politician
Yep, and, in this case, Chaney is motivated purely by jealousy.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
Putin has become a capitalist in the Czarist tradition...
He's neither... he's neither a Communist, Capitalist, Monarchist etc.. he will join whatever will give him the most power... If Buddhist were the most powerful politically, militarly etc. he would be a Buddhist...
Posted by glassman on :
What you don't understand is that the Russian backed Ossentia militia were ordered by Putin/Russia to cause a provocation to give Russia the excuse for their attack...
have you actually looked up the guy who wrote that article? he's a military/thriller fiction writer...
nobody else but him reported that story cuz it's fiction.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by wallymac: Pagan,
I'd completely agree with you and think strong action should be taken if Russia had simply rolled in unprovoked. That's not the case. The President of Georgia, mistakenly thought he could retake a province that had broken away and supported Russia. Also part of the provocation was what we have been negotiating in Poland with Missile defense.
Let's push a bit hard and force their hand. Especially while our military is stretched so thin. What's another couple of wars. WE are not in the position of power since we have so many troops comitted to battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Glass is right, they are playing chess and we are playing checkers. We don't have the pawns, rooks and bishops, we are left wide open with a king and queen.
I guess you forget a little thing called the Civil War wallymac. What would you say if California decided they wanted to be independent of the US. And they took up arms against the federal government? Would I hear the same posts from you? Those 2 regions are part of Georgia, not Russia. Land grab.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i don't think we are in a position to do it Pagan.
i'm not defending Putin. i'm looking at the chess board unemotioanlly and i see his "game";
sadly? Bush has been playing checkers...
You keep saying we. You are hopefully including all of NATO. You keep giving the impression of USA only. And that NOT the case per the NATO charter. That inference is very misleading glass. Not arguing, just trying to clarify the point.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
I'm not talking about that article Glass.... it is my own personal opinion... it makes sense... if your a Power hungry guy like Putin whose country lost alot of territories when they declared their independence years ago when your country was very weak after the system at the time (Communism) collapsed and corruption and such ran rampant for years in the 1990's... and you finally got your country strong throughout the 2000's... Don't you think that power hungry guy would want those territories back? But how do you do it without causing WW3? .... Of course you manipulate them into causing transgressions to give you the excuse to "protect our borders and interests"... it's been done for thousands of years in ancient times and it's done in the present time... though it's nothing new it is a brilliant move... a "Chess move" if you will... the same move can and is done in Chess boards... the Russians love Chess and in Chess you think your moves way ahead then the move that is before you... you think 2,3, 4 or more moves ahead to win the game...
Posted by glassman on :
You keep saying we. You are hopefully including all of NATO. You keep giving the impression of USA only. And that NOT the case per the NATO charter. That inference is very misleading glass. Not arguing, just trying to clarify the point.
i'm not seeing the EU contingent so ready to take on Putin...
Europe's leaders agreed to postpone "partnership and co-operation" talks with Russia after lobbying by Gordon Brown, but shied away from firm sanctions to punish the Kremlin for its invasion of Georgia.
Germany Split Over Russia May Hurt Unity at EU Summit (Update2)
By Alan Crawford and Leon Mangasarian
Sept. 1 (Bloomberg) -- German Chancellor Angela Merkel's ruling coalition is split over confronting Russia, its biggest energy supplier, for invading Georgia, threatening efforts to strike a united European response to a resurgent Kremlin.
the Russkies supply West Europe with about 80% of their energy... don't look for them to be wanting to freeze this winter
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: I'm not talking about that article Glass.... it is my own personal opinion... it makes sense... if your a Power hungry guy like Putin whose country lost alot of territories when they declared their independence years ago when your country was very weak after the system at the time (Communism) collapsed and corruption and such ran rampant for years in the 1990's... and you finally got your country strong throughout the 2000's... Don't you think that power hungry guy would want those territories back? But how do you do it without causing WW3? .... Of course you manipulate them into causing transgressions to give you the excuse to "protect our borders and interests"... it's been done for thousands of years in ancient times and it's done in the present time... though it's nothing new it is a brilliant move... a "Chess move" if you will... the same move can and is done in Chess boards... the Russians love Chess and in Chess you think your moves way ahead then the move that is before you... you think 2,3, 4 or more moves ahead to win the game...
well, we agree in principle then..
thing is? i haven't had ANYBODY tell me a good reason to send our kids to die for Eastern Europeans to not have to deal with their own neighbors...
i know for fact that the Georgians and the South Ossentians have been fighting since the soivet union broke up... not our problem.
the neo-cons have made it clear they are going into the area to try to make money, and the Russinas want to go in there and make money...
it really is that simple...
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:Originally posted by wallymac: Pagan,
I'd completely agree with you and think strong action should be taken if Russia had simply rolled in unprovoked. That's not the case. The President of Georgia, mistakenly thought he could retake a province that had broken away and supported Russia. Also part of the provocation was what we have been negotiating in Poland with Missile defense.
Let's push a bit hard and force their hand. Especially while our military is stretched so thin. What's another couple of wars. WE are not in the position of power since we have so many troops comitted to battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Glass is right, they are playing chess and we are playing checkers. We don't have the pawns, rooks and bishops, we are left wide open with a king and queen.
I guess you forget a little thing called the Civil War wallymac. What would you say if California decided they wanted to be independent of the US. And they took up arms against the federal government? Would I hear the same posts from you? Those 2 regions are part of Georgia, not Russia. Land grab.
Explain please. Do you mean would I support California or the US government. Really sounds like a completely different scenario.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: the neo-cons have made it clear they are going into the area to try to make money, and the Russinas want to go in there and make money...
it really is that simple...
It goes without saying that such conflicts are about money but they are also about something else and that is Power... Power is more addicting then money sometimes and anyways with Power, money follows...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
the Russkies supply West Europe with about 80% of their energy... don't look for them to be wanting to freeze this winter
Europe has the same problem we do... energy dependence from a foreign country... they much like us have to develop new energy sources domestically so the power shifts and then countries like Russia , the Middle East etc. cannot push their weight around...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
I know Obama doesnt want to ban guns all together. I just see higher taxes on guns, ammunition, etc
He also supports banning semi-auto guns. Just things like that...he is about restriction.
quote:Originally posted by wallymac: [QUOTE]Originally posted by CashCowMoo: " So now it comes down to this. Am I willing to sacrifice gun ownership beliefs, pro-life stances, and being subject to higher taxes all over the place in order for change to come about?
What makes you think that an Obama Presidency would end gun onwership? I doubt there will ever be a complete ban on gun ownership or for that matter that McCain if elected will outlaw abortion. These things can only happen if the votes are there in congress. I don't see either of those things happening anytime soon. Taxes are reality of life. Many Republicans have raised taxes both nationally and locally when it was necessary. Look at George Bush I and Ronald Reagan during his tenure as Governor of California. The bill needs to get paid somehow. We cannot keep borrowing money from China to run a deficit budget. G W Bush has cut taxes and look where we are. Now I know people want to blame the Dem's but they have only had the majority in congress since Jan of 07 so the problems we face today were made by REP as well.
As far as the Supreme Court, I believe that they should respresent the whole nation and not just one faction. How would a completely conservative court represent the nearly 50% of the population that doesn't agree with the social conservatives?
According to the constitution ALL AMERICANS should have rights in this country.
It's time to bring us together find solutions that both sides can live with. I know that is very idealistic but it should be what we strive for.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by wallymac:
quote:Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:Originally posted by wallymac: Pagan,
I'd completely agree with you and think strong action should be taken if Russia had simply rolled in unprovoked. That's not the case. The President of Georgia, mistakenly thought he could retake a province that had broken away and supported Russia. Also part of the provocation was what we have been negotiating in Poland with Missile defense.
Let's push a bit hard and force their hand. Especially while our military is stretched so thin. What's another couple of wars. WE are not in the position of power since we have so many troops comitted to battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Glass is right, they are playing chess and we are playing checkers. We don't have the pawns, rooks and bishops, we are left wide open with a king and queen.
I guess you forget a little thing called the Civil War wallymac. What would you say if California decided they wanted to be independent of the US. And they took up arms against the federal government? Would I hear the same posts from you? Those 2 regions are part of Georgia, not Russia. Land grab.
Explain please. Do you mean would I support California or the US government. Really sounds like a completely different scenario.
I am well versed in the subject wally. Just saying if Califoria seceded, the US federal gov would respond militarily.
Posted by wallymac on :
So you're saying that if 99% of the people of California voted to secede the US military would attack California. Or would California need to attack Arizona or another stae on it's border first.
Oh, by the way. I'm an American who happens to live in California.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by wallymac: So you're saying that if 99% of the people of California voted to secede the US military would attack California. Or would California need to attack Arizona or another stae on it's border first.
No, your imagining things. I was saying, like Georgia(the country), the USA would want to keep the territorial integrity of it's borders. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? It's pretty straight forward.
Posted by wallymac on :
No not the way you put and part of my reply was being facetious.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: I know Obama doesnt want to ban guns all together. I just see higher taxes on guns, ammunition, etc
He also supports banning semi-auto guns. Just things like that...he is about restriction.
Nothing wrong with that... after all if we didn't have restrictions there would be no drinking/smoking age, speed limits, minimum wage , minimum age for entering strip clubs etc. oh ok so we shouldn't have a minimum for the strip clubs... Posted by CashCowMoo on :
yeah but to blame guns and make them more restrictive because of another problem is wrong. Not Remmingtons fault that their products were used irresponsibly in inner cities, or Rugers fault that one of their products was used in a violent manner against an innocent.
The problem is deeper than that. Crime is just a big and EASY scapegoat for people who dont like guns to push an agenda.
I am not saying let machine guns be available to children, but cmon...taxing the hell out of ammunition when you claim people are hurting financially? Many poor and rural people enjoy hunting and sport shooting. How is that helping America?
Posted by glassman on :
taxing the hell out of ammunition
if they try that? i'll just have to add a couple thousand more rounds before the tax kicks in..
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: yeah but to blame guns and make them more restrictive because of another problem is wrong. Not Remmingtons fault that their products were used irresponsibly in inner cities, or Rugers fault that one of their products was used in a violent manner against an innocent.
The problem is deeper than that. Crime is just a big and EASY scapegoat for people who dont like guns to push an agenda.
I am not saying let machine guns be available to children, but cmon...taxing the hell out of ammunition when you claim people are hurting financially? Many poor and rural people enjoy hunting and sport shooting. How is that helping America?
I'm not saying guns cause crime... that is my personal view.. but guns do make it easier to commit crimes or to kill... and fully automatic guns have no contribution to society other then to blow things up or people up... for me they should be for military or police use.... besides there is no sport or challenge in hunting with a automatic weapon... just means your a bad shot and need help... it's the viagara of guns... they can't get it "up" per say so they need help in doing so...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: taxing the hell out of ammunition
if they try that? i'll just have to add a couple thousand more rounds before the tax kicks in..
Now what would you do if the tax on beer was raised? Buy a couple thousand cases before the tax? I probably would lol
Posted by glassman on :
i don't drink beer much... it makes it hard to get tight patterns
Cabernet once or twice a month...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i don't drink beer much... it makes it hard to get tight patterns
Cabernet once or twice a month...
Good thing Al Bundy doesn't live in your neighborhood lol ever seen the episode where they tried to raise taxes on beer but not wine?
Posted by bdgee on :
I own several guns and have NO fear that any of them will be taken away from me or that I will loose the right to use and enjoy them, whoever wins the election, and I am sick and tired of the crap the gun nuts and right-wing fanatics keep putting out on the topic.
There is a Constitution and a Court that would take years to reach any decision on any law passed by any faction on the question of ownership of guns in the US. Then, if they did, the chances that they would rule against the 2nd Amendment being exactly as it is worded and as it stands today is about about as big as the chances of Mayall's Object turning out to be the geometric center of the universe.
Claims that ANYONE can or will "take away my guns" are absolute trash and anyone publicly or semipublicly making such statement should be assessed for mental incompetence or tried for terrorism. NO ONE CAN. A constitutional amendment would be required AND no person can do that alone, in spit of the efforts of the republicans over the last few years to destroy that document's standing and install the presidency as as dictatorship, supported by gerrymandered permanent republican majority.
(However, should the efforts of the republicans to remain in office and continue their assault on the Constitution not be stymied, we soon will reach a point of no return, loose the protection of the Constitution, and freedom, in general, not only with respect to guns, probably will be gone forever.)
Posted by bdgee on :
I'm not an advocate of hunting with automatic weapons, but the statement "there is no sport or challenge in hunting with a automatic weapon... just means your a bad shot and need help" sounds to me like someone who has never tried to down a skittish windblown jack snipe while wading in waist deep marsh waters. It's a challenge whatever you are pointing at the beast!
I don't advocate the ownership of automaic weapons of cannons or bombs or any such thing and I don't accept that any "definition" of any such things has ever been uttered that adequately determines what is or or is not such thing.
These arguments are a devise of the far right wing to scare the people and avoid consideration of the actual questions of elections and are both insulting and in-patriotic. Moreover, they are based on lies.
Posted by glassman on :
Claims that ANYONE can or will "take away my guns" are absolute trash and anyone publicly or semipublicly making such statement should be assessed for mental incompetence or tried for terrorism. NO ONE CAN
you are sortof correct budgee..
i've lived in 7 or 8 different states...
there are some very different laws depending on which state you are in...
the recent (DC) Supreme Court decision pretty much settled alot of the issues, but not all of them...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
McCain's speech....man I remember Bush saying a lot of the same thing. Now im not saying McCain is "Mcsame" because he WOULD do some things differently im sure. I just wish they could get the economy back on track.
I dont believe in higher taxes, and a huge government hand like Obama does, but we got to figure something out.
This speech I could have done better myself.
Posted by Highwaychild on :
And they said Gore was monotone?
It cracks me up how hypocritical them party liners are. The republicans was all hating on McCain this time last year, now they are all lovy dovy. Man, they are so nice... What happened to rush's and hannity's boy MITT?
Posted by glassman on :
i like it.
"if you find faults with our country? make it a better one"...
you can disagree about which way is better, but i do beleive he means to be better than what we've had...
a bit long, but it was a positive speech, not hate filled...
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
I wish Mitt was the VP...I bet he gets a good appointment once McCain wins.
Obama wont win. He doesnt have the trust of enough people. He hasnt been around long enough. This is a good learning experience for him. He can bow out gracefully and get back into the Senate and pass some legislation that backs up what he talks about since the Senate will be majority dems anyway.
Posted by wallymac on :
I liked McCain speech. It reminded me of the John McCain of 2000, who I supported until he lost to Bush. The speech was very effective. I think it will play will with centrist both Independant and Dem's.
The problem will be convincing myself and those centrist that this is the real McCain and not the one that Supported Bush. I think if Palin keeps up her rhetoric it will fly in the face of what he said tonight.
It will be tricky but I think we have ourselves a horse race.
Posted by Highwaychild on :
The debates will be pretty good...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: McCain's speech....man I remember Bush saying a lot of the same thing. Now im not saying McCain is "Mcsame" because he WOULD do some things differently im sure. I just wish they could get the economy back on track.
I dont believe in higher taxes, and a huge government hand like Obama does, but we got to figure something out.
This speech I could have done better myself.
McSame lol i like that... wonder if anyone else calls him that or you are the first... as for higher taxes... what you need to understand is we are in a deficit that is astronomical... not even the richest man on earth could pay it off with his wealth... you cut taxes... fine... but where will the money come for the deficit? that is something no one seems to care about... or mention much...
Posted by glassman on :
all i can say is we got robbed in the '00 primaries...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
Obama wont win. He doesnt have the trust of enough people. He hasnt been around long enough. This is a good learning experience for him. He can bow out gracefully and get back into the Senate and pass some legislation that backs up what he talks about since the Senate will be majority dems anyway.
Gee, those are some of the same things that were said when Clinton first ran... you really underestimate people... but I do agree that Romney perhaps should of been his VP choice...
Posted by bond006 on :
Just got done watching McCain speech.
What a paper hat the moron is.
Talk about loyalty ask his first wife about his vows
Live in his state right to work state I can tell you all about.
Do something for you country how about immagration Mr. McCain.
He folded as a P.O.W. and accussed the U.S. of war crimes don't tell me about the going getting tough
I could go on for pages that is enough for now.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Machiavelli ...McSame I read someplace else. It is all over the net. McSame, Mcbush, etc..
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:He folded as a P.O.W. and accussed the U.S. of war crimes don't tell me about the going getting tough
EVERYONE would "fold" after being tortured for literally years. Give me a break. The key point for me is that he didn't take the chance to come home EVEN AFTER BEING TORTURED. That's the kind of character that very few people have! Some people are just talk - like Osama Obama. Others are the real thing - like McCain.
Posted by jordanreed on :
funny post,pms...
kick any down-troddin people to the curb lately?
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:He folded as a P.O.W. and accussed the U.S. of war crimes don't tell me about the going getting tough
EVERYONE would "fold" after being tortured for literally years. Give me a break. The key point for me is that he didn't take the chance to come home EVEN AFTER BEING TORTURED. That's the kind of character that very few people have! Some people are just talk - like Osama Obama. Others are the real thing - like McCain.
Actually, we don't have solid reliable evidence of that, just the word of some severely tortured guys and along with that, we have some others that claim he was working with the enemy and refused to come home because he feared h had been exposed.
The character question on McCain might be better viewed in light of his affair with his current wife (and others) while still married to the first and, then, having divorce papers served on his 1st wife, in the hospital just after he and she had learned she had cancer.
Now, "That's the kind of character that very few people have!" "Some people are just talk. Others are the real thing - like McCain.
Posted by bond006 on :
By: Devvy
August 26, 2004
NewsWithViews.com
Arizona Senator John McCain has been making big hay with the media lately regarding the anti-Kerry "Swift Boat" ads (search)calling for the White House to denounce them. McCain, never one to shy away from the camera, carries his own baggage from Viet Nam. This two part series was originally published in my old newsletter, The Power Educator, with permission from Ted Sampley of the U.S. Veteran Dispatch, July 1995. McCain has always had his own problems with Viet Nam veterans. The government's media apparatus has basically given him a free pass.
Part I
John McCain the second-term Republican senator from Arizona and former Navy pilot captured and held prisoner during the Vietnam War, is a fraud, collaborator, and danger to the security of the United States because he is being black-mailed by the communist Vietnamese. He is a phony--a "rhinestone hero."
While a prisoner of war, McCain was treated as a "special prisoner," with privileges including being given his own private and affectionate nurse.
McCain's treatment as a "special prisoner" is a contradiction to his much publicized image of a great war hero who was severely tortured and kept in solitary confinement for long periods of time because he refused to break during interrogation.
Ted Guy, a former Air Force Colonel held 5 1/2 years by the Vietnamese and McCain's senior ranking officer (SRO) in the POW camp, told the U.S. Veteran Dispatch he cannot remember the communists ever laying a hand on McCain.
Other sources have told the U.S. Veteran Dispatch that the Vietnamese are holding as much as fifty hours of film footage secretly taken of McCain during the time his KGB-trained handlers had him isolated from other U.S. prisoners of war.
Some of the film, according to the sources, is of McCain receiving special privileges during the time he claims he was being tortured and held in long-term solitary confinement.
The sources say interrogators have candid camera footage of McCain with the nurse, who allegedly supplied him with more than just medical attention during those lonely days and nights in so-called solitary confinement.
In June 1992, Trung Hieu, a film director from the Vietnamese Ministry of Culture and former North Vietnamese Army photographer, told the U.S. Veteran Dispatch that Hanoi does have considerable film of POW McCain and some of it involves a Vietnamese woman.
Trung, who worked during the war as an official photographer in North Vietnam's POW camps, was in the United States seeking political asylum when he told the U.S. Veterans Dispatch about the film.
Trung also said that during the war he photographed a nearly intact B-52 bomber, which was shot down at the edge of an air field near Hanoi in December 1972. He said the North Vietnamese traded the B-52 and some of its surviving crew members to the Soviets for three MIG-23 jet interceptors. Trung said the Soviets wanted to interrogate the crew about U.S. electronic warfare.
Trung said he took movie film of an American F-111 fighter bomber also shot down in 1972. He said the F-111 capsule, along with the surviving crew, was sent to China. The crew, according to Trung, was later returned to Hanoi.
McCain, who was a member of the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, argued emotionally during the hearings that "none of the returned U.S. prisoners of war released by Vietnam were ever interrogated by the Soviets."
Trung has said Hanoi has a large, secret vault containing shelves loaded with POW/MIA related film, which it has never allowed the U.S. government to view.
Gene Brown, who was employed by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) for a period of time in 1992 and 1993, told the U.S. Veteran Dispatch that, while in Hanoi, he had been inside a vault which contained wall-to-wall film and that there appeared to be approximately 50 hours of film about McCain.
Brown, who was in Hanoi secretly working for the DIA under the code name "Druid Smoke" succeeded in smuggling nearly 4,500 photographs out of Hanoi by buying them from Communist officials with money supplied by the DIA. The photos, most of which had never been seen by the U.S. government, were taken during the Vietnam War and depicted, Americans killed in the war and the wreckage of many U.S. aircraft.
To avoid embarrassing the communists, USG officials declared the release of Brown's black market photographs "important progress" and "unprecedented cooperation" toward resolving the POW/MIA issue and publicly thanked the Vietnamese for their cooperation.
Garnett Bell, a 30 year employee of DOD and former chief of the U.S. office for POW/MIA Affairs in Hanoi, told the U.S. Veteran Dispatch that he had actually seen some film footage of McCain taken by the Vietnamese when McCain did not know he was being filmed.
Last month the United Press International (UPI) quoted the Cambodian Khmer Rouge accusing McCain of being a "Vietnamese Agent."
"Who is John McCain?" the rebel group asked rhetorically in a radio broad-case monitored in Bangkok. "He is Vietnamese. He has a Vietnamese wife and Vietnamese children. He is an American by nationality, but he is a Vietnamese agent..."
McCain the collaborator
From the first days of McCain's captivity, he seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct, which outlines the basic responsibilities and obligations of members of the Armed Forces of the United States who have been captured by the enemy.
According to documentation obtained by the U.S. Veteran Dispatch, not only did POW McCain promise to give the communists "military information" in exchange for special hospital care not ordinarily available to U.S. prisoners, but he also made numerous anti-war radio broadcasts.
Article V of the Code of Conduct is very specific in declaring that U.S. military personnel are required to avoid answering questions to the utmost of their ability and to make no oral or written statements disloyal to the United States and its allies or harmful to their cause. Any violation of this code is considered collaborating with the enemy.
The following is McCain's own admission of collaboration in an article he wrote, printed May 14, 1973 in U.S. News and World Report:
"I think it was on the fourth day [after being shot down] that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size, shape and color of a football. I remembered that when I was a flying instructor a fellow had ejected from his plane and broken his thigh. He had gone into shock, the blood had pooled in his leg, and he died, which came as quite a surprise to us - a man dying of a broken leg. Then I realized that a very similar thing was happening to me.
"When I saw it, I said to the guard, `O.K., get the officer.'"
"An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as "The Bug." He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, `O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.'"
The Admiral's son gets "special treatment"
McCain claims it was only a coincidence that, about the same time he was begging to be taken to a hospital, the Vietnamese learned his father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., commander of all U.S. forces in Europe and soon-to-be commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific, including Vietnam.
McCain does concede he survived because the Vietnamese learned who his father was, rushing him to a hospital where his wounds were eagerly treated.
The former POW admitted in the U.S. News and World Report article that the Vietnamese usually left other U.S. prisoners with similar wounds to die, not wishing to waste medication on them. McCain pointed out "there were hardly any amputees among the prisoners who came back because the North Vietnamese just would not give medical treatment to someone who was badly injured. They weren't going to waste their time."
McCain has failed to mention what he has confided to another U.S. prisoner that since the Vietnamese felt they had in their hands such a "special prisoner" and propaganda bonanza, a Soviet surgeon was called in to treat him.
The communists figured that because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, McCain was of royalty or the governing circle. They bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."
His communist handlers believed McCain, because he came from a "royal-family", would, when finally released, return to the United States to some important U.S. military or government job. Communist Interrogators and psychological warfare experts drooled at the thought.
McCain's handlers were very much aware that he would be under great psychological pressure not to do or say anything that would tarnish the name of his famous military family.
In fact, the communists considered that to be the key to eventually breaking and then "turning" their "special" prisoner, using blackmail if necessary.
According to U.S. government documents, within a week of POW McCain being transferred to the Gai Lam military hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him giving specific military information.
One report dated Nov. 9, 1967 read, "The question of the correspondent, McCain answered: "My assignment in to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to serious losses of pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier (due to raids on the North Vietnamese Territory (VNA), and which necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like me from the forest to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had made several sorties. All together, I made about 23 flights over North Vietnam."
In that article, McCain was further quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.
Six weeks after McCain was shot down, he was taken from the hospital and delivered to Room No. 11 of "The Plantation" and into the hands of two other POWs, who helped further nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself.
Afterwards, his handlers isolated "special prisoner", McCain from other American prisoners and made him the target of intense psychological programs.
Part II - McCain continuously violates the code of conduct
Devvy Kidd authored the booklets, Why A Bankrupt America and Blind Loyalty, which sold close to 2,000,000 copies. Has been a guest more than 1600 times on radio shows, ran for Congress twice and is a highly sought after public speaker. Devvy is a contributing writer for www.NewsWithViews.com Devvy's web site is: www.devvy.com; is sponsored by El Dorado Gold; e-mail is: devvyk*earthlink.net
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Posted by Lockman on :
So it was terrible when American Hero Kerry was questioned about his service to our country, but it's ok to spread rumors about McCain.
Seems there's a double standard.
Posted by bond006 on :
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
No rumors he made the radio messages
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:Part II - McCain continuously violates the code of conduct
THAT IS ABSOLUTE B.S! When I went to survival school, we were taught that you were expected to do your best. If you were broken, you were to regroup and then resist again. Giving silly information like the number of planes on the carrier; the number of sorties he flew; or the number of pilots in the squadron was of absolutely no military value to the enemy.
The author of that article is no doubt just another socialist traitor!!!
Posted by bond006 on :
John McCain : The REAL STORY of The Traitor Luck Of The Admiral's Son Not For "Grunts" By Ted Sampley U.S. Veteran Dispatch
When two U.S. Army enlisted men were captured by the Viet Cong in 1963, they were plunged into an ordeal that would prove to be a relentless trial of body and spirit by torture. Once they were finally freed, however, their trials began all over again, when their statements critical of the U. S. Vietnam policy landed them in a military court facing a capital offense for violating the military Code of Conduct by "aiding the enemy."
But, if your name is John McCain and your father and grandfather were famous admirals, violating the Code of Conduct by "aiding the enemy" translates into fodder for a political career, book deals, and adulation bordering on sainthood.
Even though news reports of McCain collaborating with the enemy continued from the time he was captured in 1967 through 1970, the Navy never considered prosecution as an option.
Instead, Pentagon pencil pushers chose a political spin that lifted McCain, the former POW turned U.S. Senator, up to a glorified pedestal where he sprouted a halo and wings and became America's "POW-hero" and today a presidential candidate.
No such luck for the two lowly "grunts."
After two-years of being held as prisoners of war under the most brutal circumstances in the steamy, mosquito infested jungle of South Vietnam, Army Staff Sgt. George E. Smith and Sp/5 Claude McClure could take the torture no more. They asked for and were granted parole. In November 1965, the two demoralized POWs were led across the Cambodian border and released by their Viet Cong captors.
Following their release, Smith and McClure held a press conference in Phnom Penh and made statements that opposed U.S. involvement in Vietnam.
Smith, 27, of Chester, West Virginia told the press: "I have known both sides, and the war in Vietnam is of no interest to the United States."
McClure, 25, a black American from Chattanooga, Tennessee added, "The Saigon government is not the government of the people . . . The Viet Cong are the people."
U.S. government officials were infuriated. Both Smith and McClure were Green Berets and they had clearly violated the military code of conduct which among other things, specifies; "If I am captured . . . I will accept neither parole not special favors from the enemy . . . [and] will make no oral or written statement disloyal to my country and its allies . . ."
After the press conference Smith and McClure were met by representatives of the Australian government who made travel arrangements and flew the two former POW's to Bangkok, Thailand. There, US officials took them into custody and read them their rights under Article 31, which is the military version of the rights against self incrimination.
The two former POWs were then loaded aboard a military aircraft and hustled out of Thailand to Okinawa where they were placed under house arrest and turned over to intelligence agents for "debriefing."
"Tell us everything that happened that's important," the intelligence agents instructed them at the beginning of the debriefings. "It will be helpful for Americans who become prisoners of war."
During the debriefing, which lasted approximately three weeks, Smith and McClure were not allowed to talk to anyone without prior clearance by the intelligence agents and their mail was read and censored.
After the debriefing the Army informed them that they were being charged with violating Article 104 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice by "preparing, furnishing, and delivering to the Viet Cong certain documents, statements and writings inimical to the interest of the U.S."
Shocked and demoralized, Smith and McClure quickly learned that the charge of aiding the enemy carries the death penalty and that they could be tried by a military tribunal without witnesses.
Then, the Army dropped another bomb shell in their laps. Their debriefings, which they had given freely and openly were to be used as evidence against them.
The Army moved Smith and McClure to a secret location away from the press and the Pentagon issued press releases implying that they had turned official papers over to the Viet Cong.
Members of the press accepted the Pentagon's accusations against the two enlisted men without investigation or verification of the facts. Some elements of the media printed stories which referred to them as "turncoats."
Prior to being captured November 24, 1963, there was nothing in the service records of Smith or McClure that indicated any lack of loyalty to the United States.
Both men wore the Green Beret of the elite Special Forces. They were captured with several other Americans after the Viet Cong overrun their Special Forces camp at Hiep Hoa, South Vietnam. Any sensitive documents that Smith and McClure might have had access to were destroyed by flames that engulfed their team house during the attack.
Hiep Hoa was the first Special Forces camp to be overran in the Vietnam War. It was located in the Plane of Reeds between Saigon and the Cambodian border and was one of many Special Forces camps fortified and strategically located in the midst of known heavy enemy presence. Because of their isolated locations, camps like Hiep Hoa were vulnerable to attack.
Captured with Smith and McClure were Sgt's Issac "Ike" Camacho and Kenneth Mills Roraback.
The Viet Cong force marched the captured GI's from Hiep Hoa south deep into the jungles of the U Minh Forest to a crudely built POW camp that the Americans later nick named "Auschwitz."
The American prisoners in "Auschwitz" were placed in bamboo cages four feet wide, six feet long, just tall enough to sit up in. Life for the POWs became an every day struggle for survival. Communist interrogators effectively used sleep deprivation and the withholding of food and medicine as tools of torture to intimidate and break the prisoner's will to resist.
Other American POWs were brought to "Auschwitz" and chained in the cramped bamboo cages.
The new occupants included: Sgt.'s Harold Bennett and Charles Crafts who were captured December 29, 1964 during a fire fight with the Viet Cong in Phuoc Tuy Province, South Vietnam. They were operating as advisors to the South Vietnamese Army.
Marine Capt. Donald Cook, who was captured New Year's Eve, 1964, while serving as an advisor to the 4th Battalion of the Vietnamese Marine Corps. Cook was wounded in the leg and later captured.
Army Capt. John Robert Schumann, who was captured June 16, after his unit was ambushed.
With the new POWs came an even more grueling barrage of indoctrination attempts by the interrogators: "Sign a statement declaring the United States imperialist aggressors and we will let you go home.
"If you don't repent your crimes, you can stay here forever. This war can end tomorrow, but you can be here for the rest of your life."
Any ranking POW who attempted to establish a chain of command in the camp would be severely beaten and isolated from other prisoners.
When Capts. Cook and Schumann, attempted to establish command of the POWs in "Auschwitz," the Viet Cong responded mercilessly with beatings. They labeled the two captains "unrepentant reactionaries" and segregated them from the rest of the camp.
From the beginning of Roraback's capture, he let his Viet Cong captors know that he believed in the Military Code of Conduct and had no intention of violating it while he still had the will to resist. From that point on, his interrogators set out with a pathological desire to break him. When the guards ordered that no one in the camp was to talk to Cook, Roraback defied them by yelling a conversation with the captain who was isolated on the other side of the camp.
Roraback was soon isolated from the other prisoners.
Comacho escaped July 9, 1965 during a heavy rain storm. For four days he used his survival skills to avoid Viet Cong patrols and made his way back to friendly forces. He was the first American serviceman to escape from the Viet Cong.
In September 1965, Smith and McClure heard some horrifying news. National Liberation Radio was announcing to the world that the Viet Cong had executed three U.S. POWs: Capt. "Rocky" Versace and Sgts. Kenneth Roraback and Harold Bennett.
Soon after, Smith and McClure signed a promise that if released, they would join the anti-war movement upon returning to the United States. The were released in November 1965.
Cook and Schumann disappeared, never to be seen or heard from again. The Vietnamese later claimed they died of illness.
Sgt. Crafts secured his freedom about a year later.
The Viet Cong National Liberation Front policy of terrorizing and torturing American prisoners by the intentional withholding of food and medicine was barbaric and premeditated. The percentage of U.S. prisoners of war who died in National Liberation Front POW camps in South Vietnam was double, if not triple, that of Union prisoners who died in the infamous Andersonville POW camp during the Civil War. Because so many U.S. prisoners died there, the U.S. government hung the Commander of the Andersonville POW camp, Confederate Captain Henry Wirz.
In April 1966, the Pentagon announced to the press that although Smith and McClure had not been totally cleared, the charges were being dismissed because there was "not sufficient evidence to prove a violation."
Smith and McClure were given a less than honorable discharge and drummed out of the Army, their reputations tarnished forever.
During the time the Americans caged in "Auschwitz" were enduring torture and deprivation, young Navy pilot John McCain was in flight training and having different troubles. Surviving a crash unscathed in Corpus Christi Bay, he managed to later collide another training plane into power lines in Spain.
Despite the crashes, he was allowed to continue flying as a Navy aviator. Luck, or maybe it was the admiral, had smiled on him.
In 1965, when Smith and McClure stepped from the horrors of a bamboo cage prison into the humiliation of a court-marshal for their anti-war statements, Navy pilot McCain and Carol Shepp, a tall Philadelphia model were married.
Two years later, on Oct. 26, 1967, the admiral's son while flying his 23rd mission over North Vietnam, once again fell from the sky, this time landing in the hands of a brutal enemy. He was beaten and bayoneted. His shoulder was smashed and his right calf was nearly perpendicular to his knee.
The severely wounded McCain was finally thrown on the back of a truck and hauled to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp. Immediately, his captors began to interrogate him using sadistic methods they had perfected on hundreds of captured U.S. servicemen before him.
His interrogators demanded military information. When he refused, his guards kicked and pounded him mercilessly.
McCain admits that three to four days after he was captured, he promised the Vietnamese, "I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."
McCain also admits that the Vietnamese rushed him to a hospital, but denies he was given "special medical treatment" because of his promise.
He claims he was given medical care normally unavailable to captured Americans only because the Vietnamese learned he was the son of Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific including those fighting in Vietnam.
The Vietnamese figured that because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank that he was of royalty or the governing circle in the United States. Thereafter the communist bragged that they had captured "the crown prince"and treated him as a "special prisoner."
Less than two weeks after McCain was taken to a hospital, Hanoi's press began quoting him giving specific military information, including the name of the aircraft carrier on which he was based, numbers of U.S. pilots that had been lost, the number of aircraft in his flight, information about location of rescue ships and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.
There is also evidence that McCain received "special" medical treatment from a Soviet physician.
After he was out of the hospital, McCain continued cooperating with the North Vietnamese for a period of three years. He made radio broadcasts for the communists and met with foreign delegations, including the Cubans. He was interviewed by at least two North Vietnamese generals one of whom was Vietnam's national hero, General Vo Nguyen Giap.
On June 4, 1969, a U.S. wire service story headlined "PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral," reported one of McCain's radio broadcasts: "Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of the United States commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner.
"The broadcast was beamed to American servicemen in South Vietnam as a part of a propaganda series attempting to counter charges by U.S. Defense Secretary Melvin Laird that American prisoners are being mistreated in North Vietnam."
McCain says he violated the Code of Conduct only when the North Vietnamese brutally tortured him. He further claims that he was so distraught afterwards that he tried to commit suicide. He has never explained why his "aid to the enemy" continued for more than three years.
Even though there are no reports in the public record from other POWs who witnessed McCain's claims of torture and heroics or his attempted suicide, the American media has accepted his version of events word for word, no questions asked.
Yet, the same press that transformed the admiral's son into an "incredible war hero--an inspiration to all Americans," vilified the two grunts.
Comparing the incidents surrounding the fates of three POWs,' who collaborated with the enemy, makes one question why two faced possible execution for treason, while the third won acclaim as a hero fit to be President of the United States.
Once more, Lady Luck had smiled on John McCain . . . or was it the admiral?
Sources for this report include: Newsweek, Dec. 13, 1965, Jan. 10, 1966, Apr. 25, 1966, U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973, POW-Two Years With The Viet Cong, By George E. Smith, Viet Cong Memoir, by Truong Ntu Tang, Five Years to Freedom, by Nick Rowe, Last Firebase Archives files, The Nightingale's Song, by Robert Timberg, Faith of my Fathers, by John McCain.
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Posted by wallymac on :
I think it is ridiculous for anyone to sit back and Monday morning quarterback what happened to McCain in Vietnam. Maybe some can delude themselves as to how they would have performed under those conditions but believing and actually doing are completely seperate things.
McCain has suffered, his body shows us that. Why is it that his fellow POW's that were with him at the time have supported him throughout his career. They were there with him and could have denounced him when they were relaesed.
Good for the Goose mentality is wrong. This nation was not built on that philosophy. We are supposed to be better than that. Ever since 9/11 it seems more and more people are willing to give up the ideals that made this a great country and stoop to the level of the enemy.
The more that happens the more our attackers have won. They have already been successful in some ways. Due to their attack, we now use torture and have limited some of our country's rights.
It's OK to spy on individuals, it's ok to deny due process, etc etc.
We as a nation need to rise above, we can start by not buying into or promoting this type of offensive propaganda. I didn't like it when it was used against Kerry and I don't like it now.
Let's stick to the issues.
Posted by bond006 on :
Sounds like you should be talking to Rove
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: Sounds like you should be talking to Rove
Rove and other political operatives will do what they do. There is not talking to them but we as individuals make our own choices.
I'm referring to us as individuals not the political operatives.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote Wallymac:
"I think it is ridiculous for anyone to sit back and Monday morning quarterback what happened to McCain in Vietnam. Maybe some can delude themselves as to how they would have performed under those conditions but believing and actually doing are completely seperate things."
_________________________________________________
Good point Wallymac!
It is easy to get caught up in the politics of what is going on and all the mud slinging.
But man what a different game it is being in the middle of war, let alone even imagining what it would be like to be in a prisoner of war camp and surviving it.
That's what i am sure it comes down to is survival.
A year in Vietnam's jungles is one thing being a prisoner of war has to be a completely different ballgame and i know being there was no party.
Posted by bond006 on :
I agree with you guys. But McCain is running on a hereo stance. And there is a lot of different sides to the story. Maybe it ain't all that it is cracked up to be.
I do give him credit for his 23 missions and surviving and for that reason hereo statis.
For not wanting to come home maybe it was for another reason called shame.
either way the other side got posted as it sould be.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Doesn't mean i can vote for him mainly because i am worried for his stance on war in general.
To me any one that can survive that prisoner of war hell hole in the Hanoi Hilton is a hero to me.
He has to wake up with real hellish nightmares every since then.
I had really forgot about this until Wallymac brought it up, i should know better.
I even have to laugh a little at his running mates kids.
Kids can sure bring you down to reality in a real hurry, they don't necessarily follow all the avenues we would like them to no matter who we are or how much money we may have.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: I agree with you guys. But McCain is running on a hereo stance. And there is a lot of different sides to the story. Maybe it ain't all that it is cracked up to be.
I do give him credit for his 23 missions and surviving and for that reason hereo statis.
For not wanting to come home maybe it was for another reason called shame.
either way the other side got posted as it sould be.
exactly.... McCain brought his service into this campaign so there is no reason why it shouldn't be questioned like Palins' background is when she brings it into her acceptance speech... all is fair in Love & War... he's fair game like Kerry was... you don't want it questioned then don't mention it in the first place and use it as a means of getting elected...
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I'm not sure it really matters whether you bring it up or not one side or the other is going to bring up anything they can about the other side and find someone that can smear just about anything.
I guess that's what politics are all about today rather sad to me, but then i am not really into politics.
A lot of wrongs do not make a right!
Sure will be glad when the election is over but then again what will the papers have to write about except the war and crime.
Our papers here are cutting back more and more, especially in the important part the sports.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: I'm not sure it really matters whether you bring it up or not one side or the other is going to bring up anything they can about the other side and find someone that can smear just about anything.
I guess that's what politics are all about today rather sad to me, but then i am not really into politics.
A lot of wrongs do not make a right!
Sure will be glad when the election is over but then again what will the papers have to write about except the war and crime.
Our papers here are cutting back more and more, especially in the important part the sports.
you liar!!! lol u know your into politics... if you weren't you wouldn't be in Off Topic... as for sports not being covered... not sure where you live in but here in NY sports is covered alot...
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Yea i am into politics in a big way.
Did not know that politics is all we discuss on off topics, guess you will have to define exactly what politics are to you.
The main papers in LA area are the Orange County Register and the LA Times, neither of which are very good any more, but that is just my opinion from what they use to be.
Posted by bond006 on :
Try the N.Y. Times for you news and the other local papers for you shopping cupons you will be much better informed and won't miss the sales
Posted by bond006 on :
Th GOP convention IMHO was fun to look at McCain gave a great speach but thats all it was.
War hero,bad mouth Obama, and say get involved and change your government. I agree a person should set time from there life to help others I do.
But times are bad and running on a war hero platform does not feed your children or keep you family in a house the Republicans don't give answers to that they just say tax cuts that does not create jobs or make mortage payments. Trickle down has never worked it sounds good but the truth is when the top end gets a tax cut it turns into investment capital,and goes over seas most of the time.
Now Obama says he will cut taxes on working people and small business this money stays here and is used for consumption.
all and all I have not heard anything in the Republican convention about the economy or how to start our economy up again.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
all and all I have not heard anything in the Republican convention about the economy or how to start our economy up again.
I didn't catch all of the convention, but didn't McCain talk about creating jobs that 'won't go away' in his final speech? Talked about the building\running of Nuclear power plants and other energy source construction jobs. He talked about how education was going to be a priority so that we would have the ability to perform the jobs here that get outsourced. That would help the economy no matter how you split it.
Posted by glassman on :
OK, so what's a job that won't go away?
i heard that too. and i was wondering what he meant....
Posted by Highwaychild on :
6.1% unemployment rate... I think I heard it's at an all time high.
That 6.1% doesn't INCLUDE the ones that have used up their benefits and still haven't found any job or the ones that lost their job and are trapped in a part time job at Burger King or Walmart.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: OK, so what's a job that won't go away?
i heard that too. and i was wondering what he meant....
The infrastructure building\maintainence I assume. Construction of a single nuclear power plant would employ a good number of people for several years, if McCain is serious about building a record number of them in a short (relatively) amount of time, that would employ a great many people for several years. Add to that the 'clean' coal stuff and the other necessary infrastructure for bringing the electricity from locations where the solar\wind\tidal power is being generated to where it is needed adds even more jobs. As these are location specific, they can't leave the states. As for when the projects are done...who knows?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: Try the N.Y. Times for you news and the other local papers for you shopping cupons you will be much better informed and won't miss the sales
Wow...NY times? Sure it has NEWS, but it has got to be the biggest liberal media front out there in newspapers.
Just look at some of these articles that come from this place.
Seems from those charts that unemployment wasn't too bad until mid 2006...
I wonder what could have changed in mid to late 2006 that would affect the whole nation like that?
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Highwaychild,
That 6.1% doesn't INCLUDE the ones that have used up their benefits and still haven't found any job or the ones that lost their job and are trapped in a part time job at Burger King or Walmart.
Does the 6.1% also includes the spouses of single income households that aren't in need of a job and thus aren't employed?
Posted by bdgee on :
No, it includes only those that have filed for unemployment benefits.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
Thanks, Bdgee.
Another question, what is generally considered an 'acceptable' unemployment rate. I understand that 0% is ideal, but where is the point that 'pretty much anyone who wants a job has one' unemployment rate, aproximately?
Posted by wallymac on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: OK, so what's a job that won't go away?
i heard that too. and i was wondering what he meant....
The infrastructure building\maintainence I assume. Construction of a single nuclear power plant would employ a good number of people for several years, if McCain is serious about building a record number of them in a short (relatively) amount of time, that would employ a great many people for several years. Add to that the 'clean' coal stuff and the other necessary infrastructure for bringing the electricity from locations where the solar\wind\tidal power is being generated to where it is needed adds even more jobs. As these are location specific, they can't leave the states. As for when the projects are done...who knows?
The problem is that none of this will happen in a short period of time. No one just goes out and starts building. First they will decide where to build them, then they will have to acquire the land and do and do all the necessary research and analysis etc etc. IMO, it would be years to begin building and even longer before those plants are up and running and providing stable jobs.
In considering this along with other programs he briefly mentioned, where is the money going to come from?
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
As a guess, wallymac? The same place all of it's money comes from...us. That being obvious, I would add that if McCain really IS serious about chopping out pork spending and other frivilous earmarks, there are literally hundreds of millions of dollars that can be reallocated to these projects. As they start to bear fruit, I would assume that the reduction in money spent over seas on oil and other energy resources could also be directed to expanding the programs.
Just my view of a possible answer.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:6.1% unemployment rate... I think I heard it's at an all time high.
You heard wrong! 6.1% is NO WHERE NEAR the all time unemployment rate.
There is a very clear choice in this election.
Obama will raise taxes across the board. McCain will cut taxes.
Obama and McCain have both said that they will support the cap and trade system for the non-existent climate change, which will add about $2 to each gallon of gas.
Obama wants to invest in research for "green technologies", but not drill for oil; not build nuclear plants; not do clean coal; not do shale to coal, etc.
McCain has flip-flopped and now says he is for offshore drilling, nuclear, clean coal, shale, etc. This is obviously the better plan IF he doesn't flip-flop again due to pressure from the environmental wackos.
Obama wants to socialize medicine and steal profits from big oil, big pharma, and any other industry that is successful - which will result in higher prices for all of us.
McCain - ? (he's no conservative)
Obama wants to appease our enemies.
McCain wants to kill our enemies.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: As a guess, wallymac? The same place all of it's money comes from...us. That being obvious, I would add that if McCain really IS serious about chopping out pork spending and other frivilous earmarks, there are literally hundreds of millions of dollars that can be reallocated to these projects. As they start to bear fruit, I would assume that the reduction in money spent over seas on oil and other energy resources could also be directed to expanding the programs.
Just my view of a possible answer.
LOL...
the "pork" already provides jobs, do you have any clue what the pork does? this is just a good example of foolish logic.
when you build a bridge to "nowhere"? jobs are created. then there's more jobs building houses and towns and roads at the end of the bridge...
Posted by glassman on :
McCain will cut taxes.
like Sarah Palin did? LOL... shell games buddy, where's the pea now?
and she "proudly announced" that she awarded the largest building contract ever in America:
to TransCanada, based in? you guessed it! CANADA Posted by glassman on :
i keep hearing how Obama is against nuclear, i think that's mis-characterization...
the nuclear people like him:
Nuclear Leaks and Response Tested Obama in Senate By MIKE McINTIRE Published: February 3, 2008
Since 2003, executives and employees of Exelon, which is based in Illinois, have contributed at least $227,000 to Mr. Obama’s campaigns for the United States Senate and for president. Two top Exelon officials, Frank M. Clark, executive vice president, and John W. Rogers Jr., a director, are among his largest fund-raisers.
Another Obama donor, John W. Rowe, chairman of Exelon, is also chairman of the Nuclear Energy Institute, the nuclear power industry’s lobbying group, based in Washington. Exelon’s support for Mr. Obama far exceeds its support for any other presidential candidate.
that article was criticism of Obama for supporting nuclear policy in the Senate
it's just amazing how many of these "talking points" are just plain old LIES!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:Mr. Obama scolded Exelon and federal regulators for inaction and introduced a bill to require all plant owners to notify state and local authorities immediately of even small leaks. He has boasted of it on the campaign trail, telling a crowd in Iowa in December that it was “the only nuclear legislation that I’ve passed.”
That doesn't sound like a guy that's in favor of nuclear power!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:Mr. Obama scolded Exelon and federal regulators for inaction and introduced a bill to require all plant owners to notify state and local authorities immediately of even small leaks. He has boasted of it on the campaign trail, telling a crowd in Iowa in December that it was “the only nuclear legislation that I’ve passed.”
That doesn't sound like a guy that's in favor of nuclear power!
i'm for nuclear power, and i want all leaks reported, and i want a reasonable disposal system put in place...
is that too much to ask?
if he isn't for nuclear power? then why is the Nuclear Industry supporting him? LOL...
Nevada has a few electoral college votes, and both candidates want Nevada... but Nevada doesn't want Yucca mountain....
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Thanks, Bdgee.
Another question, what is generally considered an 'acceptable' unemployment rate. I understand that 0% is ideal, but where is the point that 'pretty much anyone who wants a job has one' unemployment rate, aproximately?
Acceptable unemployment rate based on what?.
Generally, using the same federal government figure that is currently reporting 6.1%, it varies with time, everywhere from 3% to 4.3%. But keep in mind, those figures are based only on the people receiving federal unemployment benefits and there are no actual definable limits.....it's more art and opinion than science and more a political definition than solid economic figure. Back when I was still claiming to be a student the point you are seeking ("the point that 'pretty much anyone who wants a job has one") was said to be around 3.8%.
I never accepted it because that is as defined by ivory tower Wall Street favoring types and I always have known quite well qualified people that could not find gainful employment. It's much like today, when the Wall Street types assure the rightwingers that the economy is strong and little kids go without a teacher because the local school board hasn't the money to pay one, while every eighth home is well behind on the mortgage or is in foreclosure. We are one big blunder from a full depression and it is because the no taxing righwingers have refused to allow the government to properly regulate the lending industry, claiming the free market will take care of it.
The free market never has and never will. Indeed, the free market is the same sort of utopian lie that communism is. It simply can't work because there is always a greedy selfish power hungry ego (or a million or way more) in the way, preventing the dream from reaching criical mass.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:and little kids go without a teacher because the local school board hasn't the money to pay one
NO children in the United States go without a teacher because the school board doesn't have the money to pay for a teacher.
Posted by bdgee on :
You are showing your bigoted ignorance again, PM.
Why don't you learn to check facts before you pass that right-wing crap? (Hell, at least check them with someone that isn't a disciple of Fat Rush, the Doper. I bet you are you still running around believing there are no starving children in the U.S., just because the RNC claimed that years ago? They found out they were 100% wrong then too!!!)
Posted by bond006 on :
Well, see palin at the next public book bruning lets do it at night for a greater affect. torches show the fascist uniforms off so much better.
no child left behind
Posted by bdgee on :
bond,
I don't worry nearly so much about public book burnings as I do about the secret ones. Among her very first efforts as mayor was to talk privately to the town librarian and suggest they agree to ban certain books that didn't suit her far right-wing philosophy. Fortunatly, for that town and our Constitution, the librarian refused to play along.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
More gibberish from you Bdgee? There are no children in this country who are denied an education because their school district doesn't have teachers! There are also no starving children in this country (other than an occassional one that is intentionally starved by their idiot drug addicted parents, which is not what we're discussing here).
Provide the proof that I'm wrong! You can't, because gibberish poetry is all you've got. All fluff, no facts.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: More gibberish from you Bdgee? There are no children in this country who are denied an education because their school district doesn't have teachers! There are also no starving children in this country (other than an occassional one that is intentionally starved by their idiot drug addicted parents, which is not what we're discussing here).
Provide the proof that I'm wrong! You can't, because gibberish poetry is all you've got. All fluff, no facts.
All you are doing is proving how little you know and proud you are of being ignorant.
You need to learn that, unlike you, I don't blow political hot air that I cannot back up. Stop preaching us the BS you collect as it passes out the rear orifice if Fat Rush, the Doper and go learn the facts instead of feeding us right wing lies.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence of a single child that is starving or being denied an education in the United States.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: That's what I thought. You have no evidence of a single child that is starving or being denied an education in the United States.
HAHAHAHA
You can't even read!!!!
Posted by bond006 on :
You don't need evidence just come to Phoenix and open your eyes.
You will see plenty of kids that are not only going hungry be getting exploited by criminals.
Don't even want to go into how they are being used.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:They all tell me they have seen a vast increase in people that would starve or be without clothes if not for their services.
You see, even the socialist propaganda that you quoted can't claim that people are starving. The only kids that are going hungry (not starving) in the US are kids with scumbag parents that are buying drugs instead of food - selling their food stamps; selling food they get from food banks instead of giving it to the kids; not taking the kids to food banks, etc. These kids wouldn't go hungry a single night if not for their scumbag parents. And I agree with Bond that these kids ARE exploited by criminals - again, all because of their scumbag parents. The only way to stop this is to fully prosecute these parents and the criminals - but we can't do that because the whiney left wants them to be "victims" instead of the criminals they really are.
Posted by jordanreed on :
lol..
Posted by bdgee on :
What a crude and vulgar idiot!!!!
That there are children, and vets and others starving in our Nation is a matter of official Government record, even if it is outside the convenient experience of the pampered ivy league ignorance of dubya and his equally ignorant daddy. (What this tells us is that, with enough money and influence, it is possible to attend even the finest of our institutes of higher learning and avoid any semblance of learning.)
quote:They all tell me they have seen a vast increase in people that would starve or be without clothes if not for their services.
You see, even the socialist propaganda that you quoted can't claim that people are starving. The only kids that are going hungry (not starving) in the US are kids with scumbag parents that are buying drugs instead of food - selling their food stamps; selling food they get from food banks instead of giving it to the kids; not taking the kids to food banks, etc. These kids wouldn't go hungry a single night if not for their scumbag parents. And I agree with Bond that these kids ARE exploited by criminals - again, all because of their scumbag parents. The only way to stop this is to fully prosecute these parents and the criminals - but we can't do that because the whiney left wants them to be "victims" instead of the criminals they really are.
you are totally clueless...
Posted by jordanreed on :
which is why we are in such a mess...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:On Monday, the private school notified the parents of its 132 students that it did not have the money to keep paying its 13 teachers. If it cannot come up with $120,000 to cover salaries until the end of the school year, it will have to close immediately, said Stephen Samborski, the school's interim chief executive. Students will have to start attending their neighborhood public school with only weeks left in the school year.
You're killing me with your silly gibberish! LOL! Did you even read the article you posted? If the PRIVATE school didn't have enough money to pay the teachers, the students would attend their neighborhood public school! ONCE AGAIN, NO CHILDREN IN THE UNITED STATES GO WITHOUT EDUCATION because there isn't money for teachers!!! AND ONCE AGAIN, NOT A SINGLE CHILD STARVES IN THE UNITED STATES (unless their parents intentionally starve them)! YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN AS USUAL!
Posted by glassman on :
you are proposing prosecuting people for being poor?
they used to do that in England...
What is the federal poverty level (FPL) in 2006? 1
* $20,000 for a family of 4. * $16,600 for a family of 3. * $13,200 for a family of 2.
Is a poverty-level income enough to support a family?
Research suggests that, on average, families need an income equal to about two times the federal poverty level to meet their most basic needs. 2 Families with incomes below this level are referred to as low income:
* $40,000 for a family of 4. * $33,200 for a family of 3. * $26,400 for a family of 2.
There are 73 million children in the United States.
* 39%—28.4 million—live in low-income families. * 18%—12.8 million—live in poor families.
* 55% of children in low-income families—15.6 million—have at least one parent who works full-time, year-round. * 26% of children in low-income families—7.3 million—have at least one parent who works part-time or full-time, part-year. * 19% of children in low-income families—5.5 million—do not have an employed parent.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:you are proposing prosecuting people for being poor?
No, I'm proposing prosecuting people for neglecting their children - for spending their government handout on drugs instead of feeding their children!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:you are proposing prosecuting people for being poor?
No, I'm proposing prosecuting people for neglecting their children - for spending their government handout on drugs instead of feeding their children!
i don't think anybody disagrees with you about doing that. the problem you have is that you are telling us that those are the only poor people...
The only kids that are going hungry (not starving) in the US are kids with scumbag parents that are buying drugs instead of food - selling their food stamps; selling food they get from food banks instead of giving it to the kids; not taking the kids to food banks, etc. These kids wouldn't go hungry a single night if not for their scumbag parents
that's what you said...
yet we know for a fact that food banks aren't keeping up with demand..
Food pantry's clientele, needs keep growing
By HILLARY VAN DYKE • For the Journal & Courier • West Lafayette IN September 7, 2008
MONTICELLO -- White County families in need are turning to the White County Food Pantry in record numbers, bringing about a shortage of supplies and a request for donations so the pantry can fill those needs.
"We are serving so many families, and they all are very appreciative of what we have to offer them. They are allowed to come in every three weeks," board member Sharon White said.
Not only does the pantry offer food to needy families, it also offers services and products to women through a program called Women 2 Women.
"They can come in and get five sanitary products every month for free," White said. "We have lipstick, deodorant, combs, brushes -- anything that a woman would need that she cannot get with food stamps."
Every year the amount of people who use the services of the White County pantry grows, according to its director, Don Ross.
"In 2002, we served 8,633 people. Last year, we served 17,236 people. That tells you in five years we've more than doubled the number of families we serve. In June, we handed out 32,265 pounds of food, and in August, 29,831 pounds of food. Our costs keep going up, and the need for donations is more evident every day," Ross said.
i know some people like to say that this just started since the Dems took over in the Congress..
this didn't happen in 16 months... this is the product of years of mismanagement not just by the government, but by leaders of industry taking jobs to third world countries to "save money".
what they've actually done is brought the third world to the US.
Posted by bdgee on :
Yes, "what they've actually done is brought the third world to the US." and it will take a serious and expensive effort by the government to move it from Country, because it is an effort that the selfish single mindedness of the free market stupidity refuses to consider.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:i know some people like to say that this just started since the Dems took over in the Congress..
this didn't happen in 16 months... this is the product of years of mismanagement not just by the government, but by leaders of industry taking jobs to third world countries to "save money".
I agree that this didn't happen in 16 months and both parties are to blame for it. However, I disagree that industry is to blame for taking jobs overseas. The purpose of business is to MAKE MONEY - nothing else. Although part of the problem is that we can't compete with lower labor costs overseas, a large part of the problem is over-regulation and over-taxation in the United States as compared to other countries. Another nail in our coffin will be the cap and trade system that both Obama and McCain support. Our government is intent on destroying us (and they are succeeding).
Posted by glassman on :
a large part of the problem is over-regulation and over-taxation in the United States as compared to other countries. Another nail in our coffin will be the cap and trade system that both Obama and McCain support. Our government is intent on destroying us (and they are succeeding).
LOL.. taxes and regulations? more myths...
when was the last time you looked at the actual taxes payed as percentage?
Treasury Department figures show that actual corporate income tax revenues fell to $132 billion in 2003, down 36 percent from $207 billion in 2000. http://www.cbpp.org/10-16-03tax.htm
By Cassandra Q. Butts | April 10, 2004
The news that more than 60 percent of U.S. corporations failed to pay any federal taxes from 1996 through 2000 when corporate profits were soaring and that corporate tax receipts had fallen to just 7.4 percent of overall federal tax revenue in 2003 – the lowest since 1983 and the second-lowest rate since 1934 – is an outrage. But it should come as no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention to national tax policy over the past few years. The General Accounting Office (GAO) report also found that an astonishing 94 percent of corporations reported tax liability of less than 5 percent of their total income during the same time period. Corporate tax dodging has gone on for far too long. But the policies of the Bush administration have exacerbated the problem by furthering the culture of tax avoidance by big corporations and creating a pervasive unfairness in our tax code.
we have a very high base rate, it's actually the second highest in the world.. , but our tax code is like SWISS CHEESE...
as for regulation? i tried to set up a studio in CA... i found the regulations there to be oppressive... mostly due to earthquake issues...
when you ignore proper oversight? yo have major disasters...
if you don't regualte everybody? competition leads to cut corners all over and suddenly? we lose everything. the Chinese earthquake is a good example...
labor cost is the single biggest problem we face, and the best way to level that feild is to impose import duty like in the original constitution...
yet i keep hearing "free trade" shouted like a battle cry...
well? in the end? nobody has a job anymore to buy anything from ANYBODY. that's where we are headed with "free trade".
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote:
"I agree that this didn't happen in 16 months and both parties are to blame for it. However, I disagree that industry is to blame for taking jobs overseas. The purpose of business is to MAKE MONEY - nothing else. Although part of the problem is that we can't compete with lower labor costs overseas, a large part of the problem is over-regulation and over-taxation in the United States as compared to other countries. Another nail in our coffin will be the cap and trade system that both Obama and McCain support. Our government is intent on destroying us (and they are succeeding)."
_________________________________________________
This theory goes along with the same idea as outsourcing.
In some cases it has helped companies but in others cases it has not and for some reason many companies do not have the smarts to realign there direction till it's to late.
The unfortunate part is that we do not ever put into effect the bottom line of what will really stop most businesses from going outside of the US for their needs.
We do not need to go backwards and let business have a complete free hand to do anything they want just because they are in business, that's not the solution either.
Posted by glassman on :
yeah taxes are a real problem, sheesh:
About two-thirds of U.S. companies and foreign firms doing business in this country paid no federal income taxes from 1998 to 2005, according to a study by the Government Accountability Office. Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., called the report "a shocking indictment of the current tax system." But the report said that about a quarter of large corporations - ones that had more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in gross receipts - paid no taxes. In 2005, for instance, 3,565 large U.S. companies and 998 large foreign-owned companies operating here did not pay any income taxes.
just more political bullhockey Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:To be sure, many of the nonpayers were small or new companies that probably made no money.
Do you want to tax companies that LOSE MONEY? Talk about driving them elsewhere (or out of business)!!!
quote:But the report said that about a quarter of large corporations - ones that had more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in gross receipts - paid no taxes. In 2005, for instance, 3,565 large U.S. companies and 998 large foreign-owned companies operating here did not pay any income taxes.
Do you think that all big companies made money? How about the auto industry or the airlines, etc, etc, etc. There are a large number of companies that are losing money. Should they pay tax when they make no money?
Posted by glassman on :
Do you think that all big companies made money? How about the auto industry or the airlines, etc, etc, etc. There are a large number of companies that are losing money. Should they pay tax when they make no money?
i know they did PM...
for several years this decade? i know for fact (for instance) that Wachovia made about 900 million$ and paid NONE...
(you might want to ask them how they they do that, they might be able to help you do it too.. )
anybody who has studied the markets carefully knows they made lots of money and still are..
quit making excises for being fed propaganda; open your eyes. look around. take a deep whiff... that's not roses you are smelling...
you claim to be conservative? then stop listening to that idiot limbugger and Fox "News"...
you and people repeating the nonesense they are told on talk radio and TV are the reason the "Right wing" is taking it in the rear politically..
those guys on capital hill are saying wow? they actually beleive that crap? let's REALLY feed it to 'em... look at 'em lapping it up
even if Mccain wins (which i doubt) the Dems will be taking complete control over the congress...
they probably won't get 60 senators, but they MIGHT... and Leiberman might be the 60th....
and for crying out loud? what the hell is Conservative about shipping jobs overseas?
Posted by glassman on :
Eighty-two major U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes at least once in the last three years, even while they reported more than $100 billion in U.S. profits during the years they paid no taxes, a study released Wednesday found.
Authors of the study, the liberal policy groups Citizens for Tax Justice and the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, said the finding reflected a broader trend of increased tax breaks that had allowed corporations to pay a smaller share of the nation’s total tax burden.
Among the companies cited: AT&T Corp., Boeing Co., Prudential Financial Inc., Time Warner Inc., Caterpillar Inc., Pfizer Inc. and Walt Disney Co.
The study examined public filings from 275 of the Fortune 500 companies, which reported $1.1 trillion in pretax profits for the years 2001-03. Had they been taxed at 35%, the ostensible corporate income tax rate, the companies would have paid $375 billion in income taxes over the three years. But a series of what the study called “loopholes and other tax subsidies” cut their combined bill by $175 billion. http://articles.latimes.com/2004/sep/23/business/fi-biztax23
still think it's co's that don't make money?
LOL:
Of the 82 companies that paid no taxes at least once during the study period, 30 paid no taxes in two or all three years, the study said. Some companies generated so many “excess tax breaks” that they received rebate checks from the government, the study said.
The low tax rates were concentrated in a few key industries: aerospace and defense, transportation, petroleum, utilities and electronics Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote:
"Do you think that all big companies made money? How about the auto industry or the airlines, etc, etc, etc. There are a large number of companies that are losing money. Should they pay tax when they make no money?" -------------------------------------------------
To me there is making money and there is making money a lot has to do with books.
If a large company is not really making money for several years then chances are it will go under be sold or be bailed out.
There is no way we will ever compete with some of these countries labor force in a major way because people in the US can not live for the price that they do in some of these competing countries, so droping standards is no solution.
Posted by glassman on :
There is no way we will ever compete with some of these countries labor force in a major way because people in the US can not live for the price that they do in some of these competing countries, so droping standards is no solution.
yet people scream "protectionism" whenever this common sense is pointed out...
several years ago i pointed out that we are bankrupt...
well? now we are finding out just how bankrupt we really are...
Fannie and Freddie are the base of our most important investment in this country. the home...
they are slipping under...
conservatives and liberals blaming eahc other is only half the problem...
the other half is that white collar crime has become "acceptable" in our society...
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
It is such a problem for us to compete in some industries in the US.
I keep looking into growing that biodiesel crop and it seems like it's so hard to make any money here growing it for just biodiesel unless you can automate most of the process.
I looked at that jatropha and it looks like you need a 1000-1500 trees an acre which might yield 2000 to 4000 gallons of fuel in the end.
Without even figuring anything beyond picking the fruits, it hard to make money yet in some other countries picking would be a very low cost. ( i need a subsidy)
We see this same problem in other industries also, it's that low labor cost that other countries have that is so hard to offset in this country when making and growing goods.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: [QUOTE] and steal profits from big oil, big pharma, and any other industry that is successful - which will result in higher prices for all of us.
ah, you mean like Palin did with the Oil industry in Alaska? lol
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: I'm not an advocate of hunting with automatic weapons, but the statement "there is no sport or challenge in hunting with a automatic weapon... just means your a bad shot and need help" sounds to me like someone who has never tried to down a skittish windblown jack snipe while wading in waist deep marsh waters. It's a challenge whatever you are pointing at the beast!
No, I don't find pleasure in killing a animal personally. But there is no doubt that aiming a automatic weapon indiscriminatly in the direction of a living creature regardless of marsh waters etc. will hit and kill said creature then a non-automatic weapon because you do not need to have deadly aim with one.
And definition or no definition we all know what an automatic weapon is.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: Yea i am into politics in a big way.
Did not know that politics is all we discuss on off topics, guess you will have to define exactly what politics are to you.
The main papers in LA area are the Orange County Register and the LA Times, neither of which are very good any more, but that is just my opinion from what they use to be.
There is "politics" in everything not just in discussions about Gov't... for example even when we are discussing sports we always manage to discuss the "politics" of sports...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
quote:Originally posted by bond006: Try the N.Y. Times for you news and the other local papers for you shopping cupons you will be much better informed and won't miss the sales
Wow...NY times? Sure it has NEWS, but it has got to be the biggest liberal media front out there in newspapers.
Just look at some of these articles that come from this place.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: labor cost is the single biggest problem we face, and the best way to level that feild is to impose import duty like in the original constitution...
I agree with imposing import duty to level the field so long as it doesn't tax them out of the market. Just as long as it makes prices about equal and encourage competition. If we get out of control with import duties American companies will feel the pain in exports to other countries....
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: labor cost is the single biggest problem we face, and the best way to level that feild is to impose import duty like in the original constitution...
I agree with imposing import duty to level the field so long as it doesn't tax them out of the market. Just as long as it makes prices about equal and encourage competition. If we get out of control with import duties American companies will feel the pain in exports to other countries....
exaclty, American workers don't need protectionism to compete, they only need a chance to compete.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: I'm not an advocate of hunting with automatic weapons, but the statement "there is no sport or challenge in hunting with a automatic weapon... just means your a bad shot and need help" sounds to me like someone who has never tried to down a skittish windblown jack snipe while wading in waist deep marsh waters. It's a challenge whatever you are pointing at the beast!
No, I don't find pleasure in killing a animal personally. But there is no doubt that aiming a automatic weapon indiscriminatly in the direction of a living creature regardless of marsh waters etc. will hit and kill said creature then a non-automatic weapon because you do not need to have deadly aim with one.
And definition or no definition we all know what an automatic weapon is.
No, Mach, we do not all know what an "automatic" weapon is. (A land mine maybe? A time bomb?) The term is used differently by various people, sometimes intentionally to confuse you, specifically. An even less understood term is "assault weapon", which NO ONE has ever managed to offer anything like an acceptable or specific definition that works.
Also, I can see by your reply that you have no idea what I was speaking of when I described the problem of downing a jack snipe while wading in a swamp. Whatever the gun used, the odds are with the snipe.
And that notion that any gun (a weapon is a thing of war and battle....not all guns are weapons, just a some knives are for butchering sheep and cattle and some others for delicate carving of inlays on fine hand made furniture) can be "aim[ed] indiscriminat[e]ly" is about as logical as saying something was done "accidentally on purpose". A gun may be pointed indiscriminately or it may be aimed, but not both at the same time. Too, you seem not to realize that a gun may be carefully aimed and still fail to hit the intended target, which is the case most of the time. Successful aiming and hitting an intended target is something that must be learned and becomes reliable, only after long practice.
I do not find anything wrong with you not finding "pleasure in killing a animal", but I can't imagine how you could kill one either personally or impersonally. Does the animal think and if so does it think its killing is personal?
By the way, you seem to believe that hunting is all about killing. It isn't. Among my most favorite hunting ventures are many when no game was even found. Among others I remember with great pleasure, the game was found but never bagged. (Contrary to what seems to be the trend of the day, I enjoy a good ball game even if my preferred team looses and when my chosen team thoroughly trounces some poor team, I don't much enjoy it and I seldom stay to the end.)
I have no intention of forcing you to go hunting. I feel no need to do so and cannot imagine how forcing you to do anything would bring me pleasure. I don't need to assume or declare that you have some failing or are in any way improper because of your choice in the matter.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
I do not find anything wrong with you not finding "pleasure in killing a animal", but I can't imagine how you could kill one either personally or impersonally. Does the animal think and if so does it think its killing is personal?
I really don't care if an animal thinks or reasons like us. And I didn't mean "personal" as you do. I just don't believe in killing any living creature except in self defense.
As for automatic weapon/gun or whatever name you wish to label it my own "personal" definition is a sub-machine gun, machine gun etc... the ones you can spray multiple bullets (like 100 or more rounds per minute etc.) with very little effort at a target...
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
I do not find anything wrong with you not finding "pleasure in killing a animal", but I can't imagine how you could kill one either personally or impersonally. Does the animal think and if so does it think its killing is personal?
I really don't care if an animal thinks or reasons like us. And I didn't mean "personal" as you do. I just don't believe in killing any living creature except in self defense.
As for automatic weapon/gun or whatever name you wish to label it my own "personal" definition is a sub-machine gun, machine gun etc... the ones you can spray multiple bullets (like 100 or more rounds per minute etc.) with very little effort at a target...
Uh huh, like a shotgun.....
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Uh huh, like a shotgun.....
Big difference between the two... one is pretty much a closer range weapon then the other one... but whatever... i am pretty sure most peeps on this board know what i mean without having to analyze or define every word being typed...
But my stance on trade tariffs stands Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote Machiavelli:
"There is "politics" in everything not just in discussions about Gov't... for example even when we are discussing sports we always manage to discuss the "politics" of sports...
_________________________________________________
Was not my point!
Can there be politics in any discussion ...sure there can.
Am i involved in the deep political discussions, i don't think so.
I do not know enough about politics to hold much of a discussion about them.
Age can help to build a background to discuss politics in better detail and with more real knowledge... but not in my case
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote:
"No, I don't find pleasure in killing a animal personally. But there is no doubt that aiming a automatic weapon indiscriminatly in the direction of a living creature regardless of marsh waters etc. will hit and kill said creature then a non-automatic weapon because you do not need to have deadly aim with one.
And definition or no definition we all know what an automatic weapon is."
_________________________________________________
Machiavelli, i am not one that likes any part of shooting or carrying a weapon but if you think it's that easy to hit any target just because your using an automatic weapon you better think twice.
If the target is real close and not moving fast might be one thing but beyond that can be a different ballgame.
Again the idea of not killing something is one thing i can relate to, i do not like the idea to some degree, but others having the right to hunt i also relate with although i don't hunt.
The idea of actually hitting targets of anykind takes skill and even more so as the distance increases.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Lets get it straight in case some dont know. Automatic means you hold the trigger down and it fires rapidly until all rounds are expended.
SEMI-automatic means you must pull the trigger each time a round is fired off.
In order to have a fully automatic weapon you must have a class 3 license from the fed and it is becoming ever more costly. These are mainly collectors and enthusiasts. Not gang members going to the store to pick up a RPK.
Now to be accurate with a fully automatic weapon is rather difficult. I have shot them before over in Iraq and it gives us an advantage over insurgents. The AK-47 kicks enough to make aim just pointless. We used M-4's that have hardly any recoil on semi automatic fire to give controlled shots with accuracy. Still not always that easy to hit a target at decent distances.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
[/qb]
I just don't believe in killing any living creature except in self defense. [/QB][/QUOTE]
If you eat meat...you not only believe in killing living creatures...you ARE responsible for their death...
Posted by glassman on :
and? M-4's shoot a 5.56X44mm (basically a .223 calibre) round which was never designed to kill anything bigger than a Coyote. they just aren't that useful for hunting...
why would we use a round not designed to kill for warfare? because it takes two people to care for every wounded combatant. the only people "hunting" with full auto have no business hunting.
Posted by bond006 on :
The best hunting rifles are still bolt action with a good scope.
When I used to hunt I don't anymore I went up north tp Alaska. Favorite rifle there was my 375. H&H with using a 270 grain cartridge.
When I used to fish there at the time a 44 mag pistol was about the best you could find 8 inch barrle. Lot more to choose from now.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: Quote Machiavelli:
"There is "politics" in everything not just in discussions about Gov't... for example even when we are discussing sports we always manage to discuss the "politics" of sports...
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Was not my point!
Can there be politics in any discussion ...sure there can.
Am i involved in the deep political discussions, i don't think so.
I do not know enough about politics to hold much of a discussion about them.
Age can help to build a background to discuss politics in better detail and with more real knowledge... but not in my case
You imo are knowledgeable enough to participate in political discussion and we have seen it no matter how much you deny it... Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
Machiavelli, i am not one that likes any part of shooting or carrying a weapon but if you think it's that easy to hit any target just because your using an automatic weapon you better think twice.
I don't recall saying it is easy... i do recall saying it is most likely to hit the target with a automatic weapon then a non-automatic weapon... moving or not...
quote:If the target is real close and not moving fast might be one thing but beyond that can be a different ballgame.
That goes without saying that the longer the distance the more difficult it is to hit a target no matter the weapon... but again the likelyhood is that you will hit it with a automatic weapon if you are spraying many bullets at one time in the general direction of your target..
quote:Again the idea of not killing something is one thing i can relate to, i do not like the idea to some degree, but others having the right to hunt i also relate with although i don't hunt.
I never said they didn't have the right to hunt... only said I don't believe in hunting...
quote:The idea of actually hitting targets of anykind takes skill and even more so as the distance increases.
Read my answer to this above..
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Machiavelli: If you eat meat...you not only believe in killing living creatures...you ARE responsible for their death...
Excuse me, do you know me personally offline? No? thats what I thought. yes, i eat meat but rarer and rarer nowadays because of a health condition I have been diagnosed with lately. I can eat it but I should and am trying to only eat it sparingly. I eat more chicken, turkey and fish meats grilled then beef etc.
And sorry but read my words again, I said I do not believe in killing animals " personally" that means by my own hands. And I'm about as responsible for that animals death as you are for global warming.
Anyways you have contributed to the thread now, you can go back to your retirement now.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote Machiavelli:
"I don't recall saying it is easy... i do recall saying it is most likely to hit the target with a automatic weapon then a non-automatic weapon... moving or not..."
"No, I don't find pleasure in killing a animal personally. But there is no doubt that aiming a automatic weapon indiscriminatly in the direction of a living creature regardless of marsh waters etc. will hit and kill said creature then a non-automatic weapon because you do not need to have deadly aim with one."
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Maybe i just misread you Machiavelli, but from many of your quotes on guns and automatic weapons you make a pretty clear inference to me that an automatic weapon is an easy gun to hit any target just because it shoots multi bullets in rapid fire.
Maybe other people may have found that to be the case, but firing ak's, m-16's, machine guns are far from easy to hit targets unless you are at real close range and non or slow moving and in the open.
That's why when you are in the service they use to qualify you from expert on down.
Again maybe i am the only one that mis-read what you have indicated about automatic weapon's.
That's where the politics come in i guess.
Posted by bdgee on :
Respectfully:
posted September 07, 2008 08:48 PM
"But there is no doubt that aiming a automatic weapon indiscriminatly in the direction of a living creature regardless of marsh waters etc. will hit and kill said creature..."
Posted by glassman on :
firing ak's, m-16's, machine guns are far from easy to hit targets unless you are at real close range and non or slow moving and in the open.
hence the term assault weapon. they are very good for close quarters work, but but snipers use different tools.
Posted by Lockman on :
Are their really a lot of hunters carrying m-16's while deer hunting. I know some hunter's and they've never mentioned seeing someone hunting with and assault rifle.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Are their really a lot of hunters carrying m-16's while deer hunting. I know some hunter's and they've never mentioned seeing someone hunting with and assault rifle.
no, the ammo that an AK uses (7.62X39mm) is actually a good round for deer in brushy areas where you won't take a long shot, and you may touch a twig or leaf. however, accuracy is still required and AK's are not very accurate.
it has good short range stopping power and is not easliy deflected like lighter high velocity ammo...
on rare occasions? ultra and very high velocity light ammo can actually explode from touching leaf or twig....
as rule of thumb? .243 and a weight of at least 75 grains is the absolute lightest round useful for deer. i would not use any less than 95 grains.
.223 (M16) comes in at 45 to 75 grains
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman: Are their really a lot of hunters carrying m-16's while deer hunting. I know some hunter's and they've never mentioned seeing someone hunting with and assault rifle.
Nope.
Not only is it normally against the law (I know of no place it might be legal and it is, specifically, against federal law to use one or any other fully automatic gun to hunt for migratory animals. Any way, they are NOT comfortable to carry and use and aren't much count at normal hunting ranges.) It is quite simply, not practical. A hunting gun (rifle, pistol, or shotgun) needs to be carefully aimed, because there is seldom a second shot possibility. In hunting, you are trying to stop the beast with the first shot, not scare them into retreating as fast and far away a possible, so as to not be there for a second shot chance, which is what the first shot does.
Years back I did know a fool that went deer hunting with a tommy gun.
He hunted and shot eagerly and often, in burp gun fashion, until the obvious tell-tale sound echoing through the Texas Hill Country attracted a passel of game wardens an other sorts of do-rights, who laughingly arrested him and crried him off to the pokey.
He manged to pay of all the fines, eventually, none of which include punishment for illegally killing any game. He told me afterward that so far as he could tell, not a one of the approximately 20 deer he shot at was more than quit annoyed by the many rounds that he had scattered through the hills.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Machiavelli: If you eat meat...you not only believe in killing living creatures...you ARE responsible for their death...
Excuse me, do you know me personally offline? No? thats what I thought. yes, i eat meat but rarer and rarer nowadays because of a health condition I have been diagnosed with lately. I can eat it but I should and am trying to only eat it sparingly. I eat more chicken, turkey and fish meats grilled then beef etc.
And sorry but read my words again, I said I do not believe in killing animals " personally" that means by my own hands. And I'm about as responsible for that animals death as you are for global warming.
Anyways you have contributed to the thread now, you can go back to your retirement now.
1. Didn't imply in any way, shape, or form that I "knew" you personally...and with your apparent lack of responsibility for your actions and mean spirit..I wouldn't want too.
2. Sorry to hear about your health condition.
3. Chicken turkey, and fish are all living creatures, and if you do in fact eat them, you ARE "personally" responsible for killing them...you just choose to hire someone else to do the job.
4.Thank you for "allowing me to go back to my retirement" I really appreciate that...but I believe that working hard and contributing to society for the last 35 years earned me that right...not your OK.
Posted by glassman on :
i was picking up heartworm pills for my dog the other day at the vets...
some lady came in with pictures of her baby bunnies... she said she didn't know what sh ewas going to do with them...
i gave her a good recipe... bunny picardi...
Posted by bdgee on :
Lettuce and sugar snap peas are also living things....that we most often eat while still living.
Opening day was September 1 and I dropped a number of mourning doves. Plucked them, seared them, gutted them and put them in the frige. Saturdy I mixed up some dried cornbread crumbs, chopped onion, chopped bell pepper, chopped cellery, olive oil, sage, and salt and pepper, mixed in the doves and baked them in the oven for aout 35 minutes. UMMMMMMM...........goooooooood!
(Truthfully, I didn't use salt, I substituted potassium chloride, because it stops my legs from cramping in the night and making me have to get out of bed and stand on them, loudly cussin a blue streak all the while. Strains my vocal chords, ya know......wakes the neighbors too.)
Posted by retiredat49 on :
Now you guys are making me hungry...I am gonna hafta go out and kill me a living creature...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: 1. Didn't imply in any way, shape, or form that I "knew" you personally...and with your apparent lack of responsibility for your actions and mean spirit..I wouldn't want too.
I am more then responsible for my own actions and I only react to your past mean spiritness so do not be surprised on how I respond to you presently.
quote:2. Sorry to hear about your health condition.
Ty, such things happen.
quote:3. Chicken turkey, and fish are all living creatures, and if you do in fact eat them, you ARE "personally" responsible for killing them...you just choose to hire someone else to do the job.
Again, I am not personally responsible for such things and I do not hire anyone to do such things. Others do the hiring and the act of killing animals due to demand. But I do not ask anyone or any company to kill for me. If humans stopped eating meat forever it would not phase me at all. I would just eat veggies and fruits like everyone else though I would get bored of doing so after awhile.
quote:4.Thank you for "allowing me to go back to my retirement" I really appreciate that...but I believe that working hard and contributing to society for the last 35 years earned me that right...not your OK.
Wasn't looking for you to accept my OK, just looking for you to go back to your retirement since you already made your contribution to this thread lol
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote Bdgee:
"(Truthfully, I didn't use salt, I substituted potassium chloride, because it stops my legs from cramping in the night and making me have to get out of bed and stand on them, loudly cussin a blue streak all the while. Strains my vocal chords, ya know......wakes the neighbors too.)"
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How much potassium chloride do you have to put on to help those cramps?
They really suck i get them occasionally, it hurts just reading about them.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
I was wondering the same thing...I was also curious to know if the salt is what causes the leg cramps, or do you just use the potassium chloride to stop the cramps that are caused from something else?
Posted by retiredat49 on :
Mach...you can deny it all you want, but...you are a natural born killer.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I have tried potassium gluconate tablets before but they upset my stomach a lot.
Maybe the way Bdgee uses it might not bug me so much.
Leg cramps can bring anyone to their back in a hurry.
You see those football players get wacked hard on the field and many times it does not even bother them, but they get a leg cramp and there on their back crying like a baby. Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Mach...you can deny it all you want, but...you are a natural born killer.
::: aims AK-47 at him ::: No I'm not!! now take that back!! Posted by glassman on :
leg cramps? eat one banana per day...
also? make sure you don't have a folded quilt or any extra weight on your feet.
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Lettuce and sugar snap peas are also living things....that we most often eat while still living.
Opening day was September 1 and I dropped a number of mourning doves. Plucked them, seared them, gutted them and put them in the frige. Saturdy I mixed up some dried cornbread crumbs, chopped onion, chopped bell pepper, chopped cellery, olive oil, sage, and salt and pepper, mixed in the doves and baked them in the oven for aout 35 minutes. UMMMMMMM...........goooooooood!
(Truthfully, I didn't use salt, I substituted potassium chloride, because it stops my legs from cramping in the night and making me have to get out of bed and stand on them, loudly cussin a blue streak all the while. Strains my vocal chords, ya know......wakes the neighbors too.)
I've got a number of morning doves that sit around in my garden.... I love to take them out but I'd probably shoot the neigbors house.
Posted by bdgee on :
Cramps are caused primarily by a deficiency in potassium in your system. Potassium chloride is sold (lmost pure) in granular form in grocery stores as "nusalt" or "nosalt" (or similar names) and, also, mixed with about 90% salt (sodium chloride). Once mixed in food, its taste is not different from salt (there is a very slightly noticeable but not objectionable taste difference should you mix it with water and, for example, gargle with it).
Once I realized how much better my legs are without the cramping, I seldom add actual salt to anything I eat at home, using the 100% potassium chloride instead. You get more than a sufficient amount of salt in you normal diet without adding any.
Also, should you have an excess salt problem due to heart problems, (fortunately I don't) you probably will be directed by your physician to stop eating salt anyway.
"How much does it take to prevent the cramping?"
That depends on your lifestyle and what you are doing. If you live in hot climate and work outside a lot, working up good sweat, you will need more as the potassium chloride comes out in sweat just like salt does. I do live where it is hot almost any month of the year, but when I'm not doing a lot outside and not involved in much physical exercise or activity, enough to make a serving of mashed potatoes taste right maybe once week will do. As I said, above, I have about stopped adding any salt to anything I eat at home. If I actually needed salt for some reason, I'd have to dig it out of the pantry, as I don't keep it on the counter or the table. (I have fiend that carries a special little container of potassium chloride when he eats in restaurants, but I don't bother with that).
It is more expensive than salt, but a container that is enough for two or three months (or more) is less the two dollars at the grocery. I used to be able to get i in three pound bags at an old fashioned sort of country store for less than the price of salt, but that store went out of business and I haven't found another.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Lettuce and sugar snap peas are also living things....that we most often eat while still living.
Opening day was September 1 and I dropped a number of mourning doves. Plucked them, seared them, gutted them and put them in the frige. Saturdy I mixed up some dried cornbread crumbs, chopped onion, chopped bell pepper, chopped cellery, olive oil, sage, and salt and pepper, mixed in the doves and baked them in the oven for aout 35 minutes. UMMMMMMM...........goooooooood!
(Truthfully, I didn't use salt, I substituted potassium chloride, because it stops my legs from cramping in the night and making me have to get out of bed and stand on them, loudly cussin a blue streak all the while. Strains my vocal chords, ya know......wakes the neighbors too.)
I've got a number of morning doves that sit around in my garden.... I love to take them out but I'd probably shoot the neigbors house.
Well, I won't explain how my paternal grandfather taught me to catch them with an old fashioned figure four trap, because it is illegal. However, should you discover how and end up with th makings and need good recipe, there is one posted above. It works well with quail and duck and rabbit nd squirrel and even chicken, if you are forced to eat the poor tasteless things (free range chicken is way way better tasting).
Posted by jordanreed on :
popeyes is tasty
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Quote Bdgee:
"Cramps are caused primarily by a deficiency in potassium in your system. Potassium chloride is sold (lmost pure) in granular form in grocery stores as "nusalt" or "nosalt" (or similar names) and, also, mixed with about 90% salt (sodium chloride). Once mixed in food, its taste is not different from salt (there is a very slightly noticeable but not objectionable taste difference should you mix it with water and, for example, gargle with it)."
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Thanks Bdgee i will buy some and use it.
Thanks also Glassman i have tried eating one banana and it doesn't seem to be enough and anything more gives me a different problem.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: Quote Bdgee:
"Cramps are caused primarily by a deficiency in potassium in your system. Potassium chloride is sold (lmost pure) in granular form in grocery stores as "nusalt" or "nosalt" (or similar names) and, also, mixed with about 90% salt (sodium chloride). Once mixed in food, its taste is not different from salt (there is a very slightly noticeable but not objectionable taste difference should you mix it with water and, for example, gargle with it)."
_________________________________________________
Thanks Bdgee i will buy some and use it.
Thanks also Glassman i have tried eating one banana and it doesn't seem to be enough and anything more gives me a different problem.
Beedge and I disagree on this one. I find the potassium (K) salt products *extremely* salty. Like Beedge, I too quit using sodium salt some time ago. And because of my work (not lately obviously), I've had many late nights/early mornings with cramps--even went to the hospital once cuz my K was too low ==> irregular heartbeat.
Also, K is important for anyone with high blood pressure, because the more sodium you have in your diet, the bigger the benefit from more K.
Apricots have more K than bananas do, and orange juice has quite a bit. Obvious Google searches turn up lots of good sources...
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I have a heart that jumps around from time to time so maybe this stuff might help that also.
My biggest problem is that i have a worthless gut it does not tolerate much of anything, it's been that way for 40 years.
I envy people who can eat and take pretty much of anything and it does not bother them.
I have been pretty lucky have not had to take much medication so far in my life it always poses a major problem for me.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: I have a heart that jumps around from time to time so maybe this stuff might help that also.
My biggest problem is that i have a worthless gut it does not tolerate much of anything, it's been that way for 40 years.
I envy people who can eat and take pretty much of anything and it does not bother them.
I have been pretty lucky have not had to take much medication so far in my life it always poses a major problem for me.
Try a Mediterrean Diet instead of the typical American/Western way of eating... might improve you:
It is what I am striving for because of my newly diagnosed condition...
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
To my friends who enjoy a glass of wine...
As Ben Franklin said: In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. In a number of carefully controlled trials, scientists have demonstrated that if we drink 1 liter of water each day, at the end of the year we would have absorbed more than 1 kilo of Escherichia coli, (E. coli) - bacteria found in feces. In other words, we are consuming 1 kilo of poop. (that's over 2 pounds).
However, we do NOT run that risk when drinking wine &beer (or tequila, rum, whiskey or other liquor) because alcohol has to go through a purification process of boiling, filtering and/or fermenting.
Remember: Water = Poop,
Wine = Health
Therefore, it's better to drink wine and talk stupid, than to drink water and be full of **** .
There is no need to thank me for this valuable information: I'm doing it as a public service.
Posted by bdgee on :
And we can see from the valuable information you supply, you have clearly been getting an adequate supply of water, Big. You are full of it.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
I wish I could claim credit but it was sent to me yesterday and since this thread had turned toward consumption I thought I'd pass it on.
Posted by bdgee on :
It's the thought that counts....
Posted by glassman on :
i just had to pull this one out... this is from 3 years ago today:
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