I personally think it is going to be pretty bad. Big companies that are cutting jobs are only digging the hole for a bigger downturn. It makes me mad when you see large corporations who have billions in profits lay people off. I understand the corporations in major financial troubles but that is not what is happening!! Its all about greed. No patience for these companies anymore. Just lay people off and if they need to hire down the road lets hire people in at lower wages.
Plus we as Americans are spending more then we earn!! We cannot sustain ourselves. People will have to cut back and that is bad news for anything except for the essentials. Well the Fed will cut rates and save us all!! No this is only driving the value of the dollar lower which makes imports more expenive. Plus you have the housing crash. When does it all end?
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
quote:Originally posted by osubucks30: I personally think it is going to be pretty bad. Big companies that are cutting jobs are only digging the hole for a bigger downturn. It makes me mad when you see large corporations who have billions in profits lay people off. I understand the corporations in major financial troubles but that is not what is happening!! Its all about greed. No patience for these companies anymore. Just lay people off and if they need to hire down the road lets hire people in at lower wages.
Plus we as Americans are spending more then we earn!! We cannot sustain ourselves. People will have to cut back and that is bad news for anything except for the essentials. Well the Fed will cut rates and save us all!! No this is only driving the value of the dollar lower which makes imports more expenive. Plus you have the housing crash. When does it all end?
Uhhhhhh mabey where it always does........with the US making revelutionary inventions changing the world...internet, a-bomb, tv, ect....we run chit! Some countries look alright....but they don't have the R&D that the US has!
Posted by $tock Weazel on :
This is gonna be one helluva recession..
Business here has turned to chit the last month and a half...
The next five years..imo...are gonna be FULL of forclosures, BK's etc....
Survival of the fittest (smartest) baby...
By the way Ace...I think the U.S. is just as much OR MORE in trouble than any other country.
Especially with BUSH leading the pack. Posted by Relentless. on :
Just the begining.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
Wanna see how bad it's gonna be...come to Michigan. We've been in a recession for 2 years now, and IT'S REAL BADDDDDD!!!!
Posted by glassman on :
a few years ago, we moved to one of these big red blotches as part of a redevelopment program.
Nationally, 12.4 percent of residents are considered to be in poverty. �In Poverty� means that a given person falls below the poverty threshold assigned by the U.S. Census Bureau. Please see our chart topic on Poverty for a discussion of poverty thresholds.
Examination of the map shows, however, that this 12.4 percent is a misleading representation of poverty status across the United States. Poverty is considerably more prevalent in the southern states. In a clear majority of counties in the South, the proportion of persons in poverty is higher than the national rate. http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_poverty.html
it's hardly noticable here.... the crime rate is rising some..
i bet in 2010 the map looks quite different.
interestingly, you can see significant correlation between red state voting and poverty.
our drop out rates in high school are astronomical here too...
Posted by bond006 on :
We are going deep this time imho.
nothing left to pull us out only retailing and plastic.
in the past big manufacturing base and a skilled work force.
people today to use to living of each other
Posted by bdgee on :
We could build a new manufacturing base by putting together an absolutely all out effort to develop energy sources completely free of petroleum and coal, to start with, then extend that to doing without burning carbon compounds from any source.
But if we continue to procrastinate, it will happen in India or China or Russia and we'll be buying the necessary equipment and know how from them.
Global warming is a fact and it is time to tell the republican far right-wingers and the believers in the strictness of the bible to shut up and get to doing something about it. They share in our responsibilities in this world and ignoring it isn't responsible.
Let's be the leader of the world again, both technologically and manufacturing wise.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
The fourth paragraph tells it all: Workers' wages failed to keep up with the higher inflation. Average weekly earnings, after adjusting for inflation, dropped by 0.9 percent in 2007, the fourth decline in the past five years. The lagging wage gains are cited as a chief reason many workers have growing anxiety about their economic futures.
Posted by bond006 on :
Thats just what Carter wanted to do. And people laughed at him.
The supporters of Reagan had a real field day with poor Carter who was right about almost everthing he said about the near future
Global warming increased at a 75% higher rate in 2007 than 2006 I am with you bdgee rebuild now and just for get about free trade every dollar that is allowed to leave now will be to hard to keep in 5 years.
Posted by bond006 on :
I mean that the artic ice cap melted at a 75% higher rate heard it on the news this morning
Posted by cottonjim on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
Global warming is a fact and it is time to tell the republican far right-wingers and the believers in the strictness of the bible to shut up and get to doing something about it.
Got out the "extra wide" paint brush today huh bdg.
Posted by thinkmoney on :
I do think we are headed for a recession, umpy then full scale arrival. My gut says 2 4 yers then an improved economy. Some deadwood will not make it. I think innovation in alternate energy - solar and maybe others, and info technolgy -will pull us out.
That is the upsaide. The downside maybe iran war can get us out if it comes to be a war for american survival...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
bumpy
The deadbeats - banks greed gave us one arm of this recession fiasco - the other is oil-----
so, let those banksfail that made wrong decisions and oil is prehistoric in future
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: We could build a new manufacturing base by putting together an absolutely all out effort to develop energy sources completely free of petroleum and coal, to start with, then extend that to doing without burning carbon compounds from any source.
But if we continue to procrastinate, it will happen in India or China or Russia and we'll be buying the necessary equipment and know how from them.
Global warming is a fact and it is time to tell the republican far right-wingers and the believers in the strictness of the bible to shut up and get to doing something about it. They share in our responsibilities in this world and ignoring it isn't responsible.
Let's be the leader of the world again, both technologically and manufacturing wise.
Well when Obama becomes President (which I think is probably going to happen)all you left wingers can pressure him into other sources of energy.
The Dem's will have the power in congress and a Dem president. I personally think it will be business as usual but I guess you can dream.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I like the way the stock market plays out today. The head line story is that inflation is the worst in 17 years and the stock market is up most of day.
The stock market is not a true indicator of how the economy is doing as many politicians and others would like us to believe.
I wonder when we will see 40 and 50 year loans to try and help people qualify for homes. I do not think lowering the interest rate will qualify enough people to help the sagging housing market.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by cottonjim:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
Global warming is a fact and it is time to tell the republican far right-wingers and the believers in the strictness of the bible to shut up and get to doing something about it.
Got out the "extra wide" paint brush today huh bdg.
No, a particularly narrow paintbrush that is more than adequate to span breadth the narrow minded by option.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: We could build a new manufacturing base by putting together an absolutely all out effort to develop energy sources completely free of petroleum and coal, to start with, then extend that to doing without burning carbon compounds from any source.
But if we continue to procrastinate, it will happen in India or China or Russia and we'll be buying the necessary equipment and know how from them.
Global warming is a fact and it is time to tell the republican far right-wingers and the believers in the strictness of the bible to shut up and get to doing something about it. They share in our responsibilities in this world and ignoring it isn't responsible.
Let's be the leader of the world again, both technologically and manufacturing wise.
Well when Obama becomes President (which I think is probably going to happen)all you left wingers can pressure him into other sources of energy.
The Dem's will have the power in congress and a Dem president. I personally think it will be business as usual but I guess you can dream.
I don't feel so certain that Obama will win. Whoever it will be will not be dubya and that is a gift from Heaven.
It doesn't look like any republican stands much of a chance, because the Party and dubya have been only one for all these years of abuse of the Constitution, so I believe a democrat is inevitable. Whoever, global warming is not a question or a joke and cannot be ignored any longer. Republicans other than the extreme far right are saying that too, finally.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
bdgee,
You must be out of the loop. The left is not calling it "global warming" anymore. The left is calling it "climate change" so that any temperature change, up or down, can be reason for doom and gloom.
Get with the program.
Mike
Posted by bdgee on :
Propertymanager,
You have this backward mindset. It isn't correct that, just because someone points out the misinformation you spew out in order to try justifying your nastiness, that makes them be of the left. Sorry to have to explain this to you, but I'm one of those pickup driving good ol' boys with a gun rack across the rear window and I'm ready to whack off your arm above the elbow if you try to take my guns. You confuse being rigidly devoted to the Constitution as it is rather than championing trying to amend it into "God's law" and abhorring the dishonesty and hatred of the right-wing evangelical republican extreme with being leftist or liberal. Politically, you are simple minded, at best.
Also, I think it is you that isn't quite in the loop, as it is a lot of hooee that the term "global warming" has been abandoned......by anyone. You need to pay attention to sources other than Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh and think about learning something other than political BS.
Get real!
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
LOL PM
Some environmentalists have started using term 'climate change' because they feel it gives a more accurate description of what is to happen in the global climate and because guys like you were always saying..."gee...we had snow today...so much for global warming!" LOL
Do you understand that by the time we have the physical evidence that can be shoved in front of your eyes ecosystems will already be severely damaged?
Anyway,
This thread is about recession and I gotta say that is one thing my governor (PAW-lenty) and I agree on. This recession is on and we will be taking it on the chin for a few years.
If we do not learn to follow the fiscal responsibility that every worthwhile financial representative preaches to their clients every day then we are looking at the end of the last world superpower.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
Hold you nose folks we might be going under
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
It's to bad our representatives do not read this board then they could have had some insight to where the economy was going many many months ago.(or years)
Instead they have to wait until we are bleeding heavily then call emergency sessions to try and figure out how to stop the bleeding.
Unfortunately the only time these guys move is when it hits them and their buddies pocket books, as has been stated many times before on this board.
We still need many more down days of the stock market for this to sink in the congressman and senators heads. They thought they were safe figuring that this type of economy only effects the middle and lower class people. They might have to take a bigger write-off this year.
The worst thing is we have destroyed so many businesses in the last five years because of our economic policies. The only time these guys care is when the stock market is down.
A lot of people thought they were safe with their money if they invested in foreign markets and companies... welcome to reality.
Posted by bdgee on :
Members of Congress have the finest of health care guaranteed to them (and their dependents) for life and, essentially, more than financial stability, too. They have no concept of what it is like to have to consider not paying the rent in order to pay for a sick daughters trip to the emergency room or having to choose between paying for your heart prescription or buying food with your last 50 dollar bill 'til the next SS check in three weeks.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
There is a bright side to the economy and the made in USA. If anyone saw the recent Barrett-Jackson auction of cars and a few other things.
88 million in sales consisting mostly of classic cars but there were some choice later model cars also.
One thing is for sure it does not hurt to have a car with the Shelby sticker on it. That's what the made in USA should represent.
The down side was there were more foreign investors this year because of our weaker dollar. That means more of these beauties are leaving where they were born and belong in the USA.
Posted by $tock Weazel on :
These next 3-5 years the shorting button is going to be your best friend.
I am now willing to bet money that we are going to go (going) through a recession.
Buckle up The Forclosure BK man is coming for YOU!
Posted by osubucks30 on :
Oils out of control and food inflation is nuts!! How much more can the consumer take??
Posted by Highwaychild on :
Thank you sir,may I have another?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
The perfect gift for G.W....simplified for his comprehension level
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
I can't wait until gov gets their head on straight and starts pushing ethanol from prairie grass rather than from corn. The cost of wheat has tripled based solely on the amount of farmers that have switched to #2 corn (already the largest mono culture product in America and the world)
Posted by glassman on :
sugar cane and sorghum will be the future.
once we have the alcohol production and distribution networks in place? we will switch over to this.
the corn based ethanol situation is untenable, but we had to use what we have to get the infrastructure in place as quickly as possible.
desert plants need to be examined too...
prickly pear cactus can grow almost anywhere....
sorghum provides seed and the stalks are like sugar cane...
it could be planted in all of the median strips all the way across the US.... it's relatively easy to harvest, and is already grown here on a regular, if not large scale, basis.
Posted by glassman on :
breaking cellulose down into sugars is much harder than they make it sound....
cellulose is made from sugars but they are very VERY strongly bound together...
that's why wood is so strong...
here's one process for breaking cellulose down.. it's messy:
All plant structures are composed of many-linked chains of sugar, cellulose and hemicellulose, which are surrounded by lignin; a glue-like carbon molecule that holds these sugar polymers together. In the first step of the Arkenol process, concentrated sulfuric acid is used to attack the long chain cellulose and hemicellulose molecules, breaking the links of the chain into their simple sugar components. This decrystallization and hydrolysis occurs at relatively low temperatures and pressures. The resulting solution now contains sugar, sulfuric acid, water, and lignin (an inert solid). The lignin is separated from this acidic solution using a filter press. The acidic sugar solution then continues on to a chromotographic separation unit which effectively separates the acid and sugar solution into a pure sugar stream and a pure acid stream. The acid stream, now dilute, is recycled and reconcentrated for further use. The now slightly acidic sugar stream (the separation of the streams approaches 100%) is neutralized with lime; forming gypsum. The gypsum is filtered from the neutralized sugar solution which is sent on for fermentation to the myriad of possible products. http://www.arkenol.com/Arkenol%20Inc/faq03.html
some people that i know are working on discovering the gene sequences for compounds ALREADY found in nature that break down the cellulose to sugars.
funguses do this, as do bacteria, and even insects that eat crops... the gene sequences are then spliced into yeasts that can hopefully increase the speed of the process of producing large quantities of the compounds....
cellulosic ethanol is still "not ready for prime time"
Posted by rimasco on :
Topic: Recession! How bad will it be?
I think we maybe we should bypass recession and start talking DEPRESSION. Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by rimasco: Topic: Recession! How bad will it be?
I think we maybe we should bypass recession and start talking DEPRESSION.
On a lighter side, Unlike the 1930's theres plenty of Meds out there now for people suffering from "THE DEPRESSION" Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Find out soon enough I guess. Honestly...I am begining to think all the craziness and flux going on right now might just help us pull out of it sooner once the panic has worn off.
Oh...and in case you are interested...
Total cost for the WAR to date (This is everything put together) 3.2 Trillion. And here's the doozey...that ain't including tax.
I heard this one from a reliable source though I don't have documentation to back it up.
Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: Find out soon enough I guess. Honestly...I am begining to think all the craziness and flux going on right now might just help us pull out of it sooner once the panic has worn off.
Oh...and in case you are interested...
Total cost for the WAR to date (This is everything put together) 3.2 Trillion. And here's the doozey...that ain't including tax.
I heard this one from a reliable source though I don't have documentation to back it up.
I heard the same figure... But do we really get taxed on that as well?
Posted by bond006 on :
even the german bordello's are closeing down now you know it's getting bad
Posted by PCola77 on :
What do you mean by that doesn't include tax? What tax?
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: Find out soon enough I guess. Honestly...I am begining to think all the craziness and flux going on right now might just help us pull out of it sooner once the panic has worn off.
Oh...and in case you are interested...
Total cost for the WAR to date (This is everything put together) 3.2 Trillion. And here's the doozey...that ain't including tax.
I heard this one from a reliable source though I don't have documentation to back it up.
Posted by Oddmanout on :
It want get too bad.
Posted by T e x on :
It want pretty bad, already...
gasoline? ^
electricity ^
gas? ^
copper? ^
wages? flat(line)
*********************
Glass: nice ideas on the cacti, sorghum, and medians--particularly like the idea of "landscaping" roadways with pre-fuel...
Posted by retiredat49 on :
Like I said...didn't have documentation at the time.
Posted by bond006 on :
It looks bad now only an idiot could look at the figures and come out with an answer that don't look pretty bad.
The old saying it is a slight ression when your neighbor is unemployed but when you loose your job its a depression.
What I judge the economy on is my neighbors. I happen to live in a neighborhood that is upper middle class lots of high income business people when the economy is good they make fantasic money.
Now lots have sold there homes and closed there doors on there business and there is something I have never seen forclousers all over the place. One right next store the family claimed to be millionaire status two years ago.Lots of liquid assetts cash and gone now.
I think this has yet a bottom to find
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
This is a silly thread...what a waste
We are not in a recession and the US economy is the best it's every been....
mark this post...things are gonna be great this year!!!
Posted by bond006 on :
If it so great why are we getting a tax rebate that our government has to barrow
Posted by $tock Weazel on :
quote:Originally posted by Ace of Spades: This is a silly thread...what a waste
We are not in a recession and the US economy is the best it's every been....
mark this post...things are gonna be great this year!!!
"the US economy is the best it's every been...."
Your joking right? Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Ace of Spades: This is a silly thread...what a waste
We are not in a recession and the US economy is the best it's every been....
mark this post...things are gonna be great this year!!!
LOL..
"things" have already been about as bad as they can be without a crash. the only reason we haven't had a total meltDOWn is that the FED is buying all the "bad" paper offa anybody and everybody.
the other shoe is being juggled instead of dropped, but it IS already in the air....
Posted by $tock Weazel on :
Glassman I will also point this out:
In my town business is terrible...lots of people want to sell there houses...no buyers.
Lots of investors have there money in propertys...but the real-estate market is NOT liquid!!!
Posted by glassman on :
Cramer is going off on UBS right now. he's put pix of the CEO of UBS on the wall and throwing eggs at it...
Posted by BooDog on :
LMAO!! Glass.
Good chart Weazel. Even with (or especially with) the feds dilution I doubt we've seen the end of it. Nice little hiccup this week though.
Posted by glassman on :
apparently Cramer picked UBS as a buy back in Oct.
i guess he assumed UBS was not going to take the level three accounting write-downs, because they had been keeping better books than alot of the others...
there are two separate issues at play now, one is the sub-prime mortgage issue which everybody talks about, but there was also an accounting rules change that is hurting the financials even worse, and everybody just "talks around" it and pretends it's all sub-prime..
many if these big write-downs are nothing more than an old accounting trick being phased out of the books.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
"High oil prices paining U.S. consumers is a key topic of Vice President Dick Cheney's talks Friday with Saudi King Abdullah, yet it's unclear whether Cheney will ask the Saudis to increase production to bring down prices at the pump".
They never thought about this before? Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: "High oil prices paining U.S. consumers is a key topic of Vice President Dick Cheney's talks Friday with Saudi King Abdullah, yet it's unclear whether Cheney will ask the Saudis to increase production to bring down prices at the pump".
They never thought about this before?
there has been no oil shortage.
the "forces" that drove oil from 60$ to 110$ are basically traders (playing on security issues), the fall of the US dollar, and (oddly enough?) gasoline supply disruptions...
from 50$ on up? the price of gasoline has LED the price of oil and not vice versa.... refinery explosions/fires, maintenance shutdowns and seasonal blending "problems" have runup the price of gasoline over and over. oil just followed it.
if commoditites traders had been held to stricter margin standards? and the refiners were more compettitive with each other? we would probably be paying 60 to 70$ per barrel of oil...
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Agree.
But the statement is rather a stupid one considering Cheney's title. If there was or is a problem with production from the Saudis wouldn't most people that have a little business sense think of this possible easy solution before thinking of war etc.
Actually maybe it isn't such a stupid statement considering the source.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Even better yet how about Cheney asking the American oil giants to help the economy by lowering prices since we all know they are part of this monopoly that helps control the price of oil.
Posted by glassman on :
It's pretty complicated, but for some reason? Former Shell and Flour executive Phillip Carrol was assigned the job of determining how to deal with Iraq's oil in '03...
he came in with the invasion.
his public decision was to nationalise the oil feilds.
however? it hasn't been working out that way. there's alot of opinions available on what happened, but Greenspan came right out and said "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."
IMO? Cheney was trying to make HAL into the next big oil giant, competing right alongside of EXX and Shell and BP....
they decided not to allow that... and everything went to chit from there on out....
Posted by $tock Weazel on :
T/A of the banking sector:
Posted by Oddmanout on :
The economy is much better than when Carter was in office. Posted by glassman on :
at least Carter wasn't responsible for how bad it was tho. you can place the blame for most of the problems right on Bush and Cheney's doorstep.
the worst part is that they are both profiting offa this mess.
Posted by bond006 on :
When Carter was in office the country was much better off and we had the means to recover.
Now the job that breathe life into an economy have been outsourced and this idiot Bush gave them tax breaks to go do it.
maybe we will recover if we all eat more hamburgers every day fast food seems to be the up and coming center of economic developement any more
Posted by bond006 on :
When Carter was in office the country was much better off and we had the means to recover.
Now the job that breathe life into an economy have been outsourced and this idiot Bush gave them tax breaks to go do it.
maybe we will recover if we all eat more hamburgers every day fast food seems to be the up and coming center of economic developement any more
Posted by glassman on :
we need to build brand new state of the art steel mills here.
January Steel Shipments Up 7.3 Percent From Last Year 03/17/2008- WASHINGTON, D.C. – The American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI) reported today that for the month of January 2008, U.S. steel mills shipped 9,246,000 net tons, a 7.3 percent increase from the 8,614,000 net tons shipped in January 2007 and an 8.8 percent increase from the 8,495,000 net tons shipped in the previous month, December 2007.
March 20, 2008, 12:13PM Sector Snap: US Steel Companies Gain NEW YORK — Shares of several U.S. steel producers rose Thursday as key non-U.S. rivals retreated following an analyst upgrade of United Steel Corp.
United States Steel Corp. led the sector with a gain of $4.39, or 4 percent, to $114.25 in afternoon trading. The stock was upgraded to "Buy" from "Neutral" by Goldman Sachs analyst Aldo Mazzaferro.
The analyst cited higher-than-expected U.S. steel prices. "Global markets appear to reflect a physical steel shortage, in our view," he wrote in a note to clients.
"Strong global demand trends are trumping U.S. weakness, and the net-short U.S. market needs to raise imports, being already very low on supply," the analyst wrote.
Non U.S. producers, however, were struggling. ArcelorMittal, the world's largest steel maker, fell 94 cents to $74, BHP Billiton Ltd. sank $2.01, or 3.1 percent, to $61.98, and Rio Tinto PLC gave up $13.50, or 3.4 percent, to $382.
China and India are both in need of steel...
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: we need to build brand new state of the art steel mills here.
January Steel Shipments Up 7.3 Percent From Last Year 03/17/2008- WASHINGTON, D.C. – The American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI) reported today that for the month of January 2008, U.S. steel mills shipped 9,246,000 net tons, a 7.3 percent increase from the 8,614,000 net tons shipped in January 2007 and an 8.8 percent increase from the 8,495,000 net tons shipped in the previous month, December 2007.
March 20, 2008, 12:13PM Sector Snap: US Steel Companies Gain NEW YORK — Shares of several U.S. steel producers rose Thursday as key non-U.S. rivals retreated following an analyst upgrade of United Steel Corp.
United States Steel Corp. led the sector with a gain of $4.39, or 4 percent, to $114.25 in afternoon trading. The stock was upgraded to "Buy" from "Neutral" by Goldman Sachs analyst Aldo Mazzaferro.
The analyst cited higher-than-expected U.S. steel prices. "Global markets appear to reflect a physical steel shortage, in our view," he wrote in a note to clients.
"Strong global demand trends are trumping U.S. weakness, and the net-short U.S. market needs to raise imports, being already very low on supply," the analyst wrote.
Non U.S. producers, however, were struggling. ArcelorMittal, the world's largest steel maker, fell 94 cents to $74, BHP Billiton Ltd. sank $2.01, or 3.1 percent, to $61.98, and Rio Tinto PLC gave up $13.50, or 3.4 percent, to $382.
I wholeheartedly disagree. We need to invest in technology. Steel, like fossil fuels, is a finite asset. The US needs to invest in the future, not the stodgy pidgeon holes of the past.
JMO
Ps: China and India can fend for themselves.
Posted by bond006 on :
We need heavy industry as much as we need Hi tech.
The country still builds buildings and bridges and
as matter of fact there is 20 years of work rebuilding our infrastrcture. We need both and we need jobs here that pay a living wage.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: We need heavy industry as much as we need Hi tech.
The country still builds buildings and bridges and
as matter of fact there is 20 years of work rebuilding our infrastrcture. We need both and we need jobs here that pay a living wage.
at least 20 years...
that bridge collapse in Minnesota was just a warning sign...
is "hi-tech" a euphemism for sitting at a desk?
i am talking about hi-tech steel mills, not re-opening the same ones that went out of business because it was more "profitable" to raid the co's assets and pension funds than it was to re-fit them...
China and India need to be OUR CUSTOMERS not our cheap labor pool.
there are many Americans that LOVE working hard and sweating, they do not want to be relegated to "customer service" at Lowes and Home Depot.
Posted by glassman on :
warning signs:
Officials Close Steel Bridge in Minnesota After Bent Plates Are Found
By SUSAN SAULNY Published: March 22, 2008
CHICAGO — A 51-year-old steel truss bridge over the Mississippi River in St. Cloud, Minn., was abruptly shut down on Thursday after inspectors found that its gusset places were bending — a problem similar to the one believed to have critically weakened the Interstate 35W bridge that collapsed in Minneapolis in August. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/22/us/22bridge.html?ref=us
Oregon: In making the case for replacing the Sellwood Bridge, Multnomah County commissioners have cited one number time and again: 2.
That's the cracked bridge's "sufficiency rating," on a 100-point scale. The 2 makes it tied with two other bridges for the lowest score in the state. The 2 also is such an apparently flunking grade that some county commissioners say the bridge should be shut down.
March 18, 2008, 12:03 pm Trying to Head Off a Highway Disaster
By John Holusha There were cracks in the bridge carrying Interstate 35 across the Mississippi River in Minneapolis, but nobody paid much attention to them until the bridge fell into the river last August, killing seven people.
Possibly as a result, a busy two-mile stretch of the elevated Interstate 95 in Philadelphia was closed today to repair a crack in a reinforced concrete support pillar that had grown ominously large in recent months. The highway, which ordinarily carries 190,000 vehicles a day, will be closed for at least two days, snarling traffic on other routes in the city. The jagged crack had grown from about a half-inch wide and four feet long last October to two inches wide and eight feet long.
it's everywhere... there are thousands of small bridges all over the country that are in desperate need of replacement
we are in a state of decay.
Posted by glassman on :
Bridge repair to begin Monday March 21, 2008 StoryChat Post Comment Star-Gazette
Advertisement The City of Elmira plans to complete its repairs to the Walnut Street bridge beginning Monday, officials announced this afternoon.
The bridge will be open to traffic, however, motorists will be restricted to one lane while workers attach plates and bolts in areas where the cross-section has been diminished, as well as some structural welding.
Harsh winter has pushed McCleary work into the summer
By Brian Reisinger Wausau Daily Herald
The Wisconsin Department of Transportation does not expect to open all four lanes of the McCleary Bridge until late June, despite promoting the bridge as part of an alternate route during upcoming work on Highway 51/29.
Close Window Consumer Confidence Plunges in March Tuesday, March 25, 2008 NEW YORK - Consumer confidence sank to a five-year low in March as tight credit markets, rising prices and worsening job prospects made many worry that the economy has fallen into recession.
The Conference Board, a business-backed research group, said Tuesday that its Consumer Confidence Index plunged to 64.5 in March from a revised 76.4 in February. That was far below the 73.0 expected by analysts surveyed by Thomson/IFR.
The index has been weakening since July, and is watched because lower consumer confidence tends to result in lower consumer buying, which is a drag on the economy.
Lynn Franco, director of the Conference Board's research center, said the latest index reading was the lowest since 61.4 in March 2003, just ahead of the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
"Consumers' outlook for business conditions, the job market and their income prospects is quite pessimistic and suggests further weakening may be on the horizon," she added.
There were steep declines in two companion indexes.
The present situation index, which looks at current conditions, slumped to 89.2 in March from 104.0 the month before. The expectations index, which looks ahead, dropped to a 35-year low of 47.9 in March from 58.0 in February. The last time the reading was that depressed was in December 1973, when it registered 45.2 amid the Arab oil embargo and Watergate scandal, the Conference Board said.
In the expectations appraisal, a growing number of consumers said they expected business conditions to worsen over the next six months. On the labor market, consumers expecting fewer jobs increased to 29 percent in March from 28 percent in February, while those expecting more jobs declined to 7.7 percent from 8.9 percent.
The survey by the New York-based Conference Board is based on a sample of 5,000 U.S. households.
"The index has been weakening since July, and is watched because lower consumer confidence tends to result in lower consumer buying, which is a drag on the economy."
Too bad the feds made it easier to restock inventory so now they will be fat dumb and happy manipulating prices to milk every last dime from us for months to come.
Oh wait... that tax relief check should about cover it eh?
Nice chfd chart Wea$el!! lmao!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:We need both and we need jobs here that pay a living wage.
We need companies that can compete in a world market. They can't do that if they are required to meet overly stringent regulations; are over-taxed; and pay a "living wage".
We're now only 11 years (at most) before Medicare being bankrupt (and that estimate is 7 years sooner than was estimated JUST LAST YEAR). We also have entitlements like Social Security that we will not be able to pay. None of this factors in the half trillion dollars that the Fed has thrown around trying to keep the economy from collapsing today!
In the history of every superpower throughout history, we see the same pattern play out. The US has already rushed over the cliff and is rapidly on the way to the bottom!
Posted by glassman on :
In the history of every superpower throughout history, we see the same pattern play out. The US has already rushed over the cliff and is rapidly on the way to the bottom!
true, but never in history have more ways been available to respond to problems so quickly.
the solution is a weak dollar. a very weak dollar. i know that sounds counterintuitive, but weakening the dollar tomorrow makes debt incurred yesterday easier to payoff....
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: The 3.2 Trillion dollar figure is based off of testimony to congress from Nobel-winner economist Joseph Stigiitz.
Like I said...didn't have documentation at the time.
If anyone is still interested...my friend mis-spoke. He meant to say that they men who counted all the beans and came up with the 3.2 trillion number didn't include "interest" on the loans we have taken to fund this war.
Heard another number today. $30,000. That's the amount of debt the average American family is taking on per year to fund this war.
Posted by bond006 on :
You are paying the same for the import mechandise as anyting made here.
The diference is the tade laws have changed
screw the corporatins let them all go over seas.
And they can sell all they make over there to people that they pay 10 cents an hour to, can't buy there poducts.
So they can lower them to the domestic market value of that nation they operate in.
And further more they should never come back to the USA.
Any right wing idiot can leave with them. After all no regulations to worry about so you would be happy
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
As much as I don't like the man very much we need Al Maliki to shore up his power base.
Then we can cut the war out of the budget. We will also need to close down the bottom 10% of under performing government programs. Cut 10% off the top of the remaining programs. Divert half the military equipment budget over to infrastructure replacement. And freeze wage increases in the house and senate until the credit card gets paid off.
I think then even the most obtuse politico might catch the hint that taking care of the nation comes BEFORE scoring points on your opponents.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
As much as I don't like the man very much we need Al Maliki to shore up his power base.
Then we can cut the war out of the budget. We will also need to close down the bottom 10% of under performing government programs. Cut 10% off the top of the remaining programs. Divert half the military equipment budget over to infrastructure replacement. And freeze wage increases in the house and senate until the credit card gets paid off.
I think then even the most obtuse politico might catch the hint that taking care of the nation comes BEFORE scoring points on your opponents.
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
quote:Originally posted by $tock Weazel:
quote:Originally posted by Ace of Spades: This is a silly thread...what a waste
We are not in a recession and the US economy is the best it's every been....
mark this post...things are gonna be great this year!!!
"the US economy is the best it's every been...."
Your joking right?
Wall Street began the second quarter with a big rally Tuesday as investors rushed back into stocks, optimistic that the worst of the credit crisis has passed and that the economy is faring better than expected.
Ace, can I ask what business you're in?
Posted by T e x on :
lol
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
quote:Originally posted by Upside: Ace, can I ask what business you're in?
I'm a Man Whore...I'm in the Man Whore business
Only women clients of course Posted by T e x on :
insincere post, imo...
Posted by beechwood on :
I think this will be a serious recession. What we're seeing now is just the begginning. I've already liquidated half my holdings and bought silver and gold bullion while they were still relatively low in price. Also, bags & bags of pre-1960's silver coins while they are still available. I think gold will go to over $2k an ounce and silver to $40.
Posted by a surfer on :
quote:Originally posted by beechwood: I think this will be a serious recession. What we're seeing now is just the begginning. I've already liquidated half my holdings and bought silver and gold bullion while they were still relatively low in price. Also, bags & bags of pre-1960's silver coins while they are still available. I think gold will go to over $2k an ounce and silver to $40.
Best move you could have made Beechwood!!!
Congrats!
The wool pulling can only last so long and Bernake knows it.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
More job loses! 80,000 lost and last two months revised upward!!
quote:Originally posted by beechwood: I think this will be a serious recession. What we're seeing now is just the begginning. I've already liquidated half my holdings and bought silver and gold bullion while they were still relatively low in price. Also, bags & bags of pre-1960's silver coins while they are still available. I think gold will go to over $2k an ounce and silver to $40.
The economy grew in Q1. Is that just a lie??? They used 2.6% as the inflation number. (Now thats a load of crap!) The government just manipulates the numbers. Just like the unemployment numbers!
the numbers have been outawhack for over two years now...
why? because you can now get a cell phone for 50$ and pay 50$ a month for service. not five years ago ...
because you can get a computer with a 160 gig hard drive for 500$ which in 1990 would have been a million dollars (literally)
TV? a 60 inch plasma for 2000$? five years ago it was 25000$ that's how they keep those numbers looking low.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
Very true glass. But people do not buy that stuff every year. The working poor never buy that stuff. But as you say those price declines are what is keeping the inflation number low. Although the "REAL" cost of living is increasing by more then 2.6% a year!
Posted by glassman on :
not only do they not buy that stuff every year?
other than the cell phones (and maybe even them)? they are putting everything on credit cards and paying between 12 and 24% interest on much of it.
when they evaluate the cost of a car? they add in all the extra stuff you get for your money now too..
like safety features, better stereos and navigation systems etc. so they say that inflation is not as high as it is when in fact you are still paying more.
when i look at the avg price of a home? about 200 grand? and i KNOW that you are supposed to spend only 30% of your after tax income on your home payments? nobody in the middle class can actually afford to buy one unless they have saved about 50grand... but we have negative savings rate in the US...
the economic issues we as society are facing are not just the price of oil. we have created a bubble in our whole economy by borrowing and not really paying attention to what things cost and how we will pay for them.
Posted by bond006 on :
Glass just think not only is our government using the plastic but the majority of the people in our country.
I do remember slow downs in the past where peoples savings actually increased there spending went down but they had a savings account.
Not today most are pay check to paycheck and using plastic to boot.
You put the govnerment and a big part of the general population all on the same tract. You have a real ticket for a disaster getting very close.
Posted by glassman on :
You put the govnerment and a big part of the general population all on the same tract. You have a real ticket for a disaster getting very close.
so, here's where it gets interesting.
there's only one way from a macro-economic perspective to fix this.(OK there's really two, but the other is to start a WW)
take the dollar to the basement on the world market.
i know Dubya and Paulson keep saying they want a strong dollar, but that will not work. taking the dollar to the absolute bottom and allowing runaway inflation would make our current debtload insignificant.
the "problem" with that and the main reason inflation is more less flat is that wages have remained falt and will as long as globalistion is being "developed"
globalisation is almost dead. nobody is talking about this yet, but globalisation was premised on dirt cheap transportation.... well? unless oil drops by about 25-30% in the next year? we'll see a precipitous drop in the amount of cargo being shipped worldwide.
shipping raw materials and then goods produced from them was so cheap that ships were leaving America empty and still making profits.
that's one of the reasons that this lady got rich:
China's richest woman: from waste to wealth (Xinhua) Updated: 2006-10-20 15:42
BEIJING -- As night falls on the town of Mayong in south China's Guangdong Province, container trucks emblazoned with the logo "Nine Dragons Paper", a local household name, take to the streets.
Long after most people have gone home for the night the Nine Dragons Paper factory is still ablaze with lights.
We run around the clock. I've never seen a slack period since I worked here," says a company manager, adding that orders had already piled up into December for the firm's packaging products, which are used by companies like Coca Cola, Nike, Sony, Haier and TCL.
Waste paper is the foundation of the wealth of Zhang Yin, the 49-year-old owner of the factory and its sister plant in the eastern Jiangsu Province.
The first woman to top the Huran Report rich list in China, she has amassed an estimated fortune of 27 billion yuan (US$3.4 billion) by recycling scrap paper imported from the United States.
Wealthier than US television host Oprah Winfrey and author of the Harry Potter series J.K. Rowling, Zhang is described by acquaintances as a "round-faced, not very tall" woman who "doesn't like dressing up and looks like a person of action" http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-10/20/content_713250.htm
people afford to ship raw materials across the world and reship product back to the very people that produced the raw materials and make a profit?
somebody somewhere is paying big time...
Posted by a surfer on :
somebody somewhere is paying big time...
Could it be us.....LOL
dow at 13k....painted.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Frickin A
This is exactly what I am talking about...
Why The HELL are we being so LAZY that we won't recycle our own damned PAPER!
Electronics....I get that there are dangerous metals and retardants and what not so it is easier for us to ship it to Africa and China where they don't care if their workers get cancer or not but PAPER???
WTF!
Posted by glassman on :
Why The HELL are we being so LAZY that we won't recycle our own damned PAPER!
interesting question...
quite a few people have been arrested in NYC for illegally picking up paper set out for recycling...
the city makes good money on it.
they even mandate it.
that lady buys more paper to recycle from the US than anywhere else and she gets a deal on shipping cuz the ships would be empty otherwise.
Posted by rimasco on :
I hear some people are taking it upon themselves to steal manhole covers to sell at 10 dollars a clip.
My friend was also telling me auto catalytic converter are being sawed out of cars and sold for the precious metals they contain. 300-400 a pop.
sign o the times
Posted by NaturalResources on :
quote:Originally posted by rimasco: I hear some people are taking it upon themselves to steal manhole covers to sell at 10 dollars a clip.
My friend was also telling me auto catalytic converter are being sawed out of cars and sold for the precious metals they contain. 300-400 a pop.
sign o the times
My personal favorite was in Yahoo Odd-News a few weeks back... Someone thought they would cut down live power lines with a bolt cutter so they could sell the copper to a scrapyard...
The power company found the bolt cutter hanging on the line which was halfway cut, but no sign of the person with the "bright" idea LOL....
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
It's getting so bad that the casinos are even complaining and cutting back hours on employees.
I heard one of the workers answer a question about it yesterday. Someone commented that gambling gets greater during slow times because people take their money and try to hit a big one to get them out of their money problems.
The worker answered that this time around many people don't have any money to even try and hit the big one.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
I know of all three up here. Man-hole covers do disappear from time to time. Converters too.
The guys up here was a little smarter with the power lines. They don't actually cut into the line but they steal the grounding wires of the poles.
Main thing that is causing a big problem at the moment are folks who are breaking into foreclosed and vacant homes to strip the wiring. Major damage to homes that are already sitting empty and bank owned.
Posted by bond006 on :
Take it easy guys george flight suit bush says things are going to turn as soon as those rebat checks hit
Posted by Upside on :
Sign of the times? As some of you know I own a steel service center, small company selling raw material to tool & die shops, machine shops, etc. Sold some 1" diameter, 12' long copper bar stock to a customer Tuesday morning. We showed 15 of them in stock.
About an hour after the order went out into the plant for processing, the guy pulling the stock comes into my office saying he can't find a single length of it out there. Funny, we show 15 and he can't find even 1? Now there's only one place this stock could be located but I decide to go look for myself thinking that someone screwed up and mis-racked it or something. Not only could I not find a single length of it myself but I couldn't find a single piece of any sized copper out there at all. Nothing!
Went back into the office and ran a quick tally of our copper and we were supposed to have close to 3000 pounds of it out there in various sizes, shapes and lentghs. After doing a complete physical inventory, we found one piece of copper pipe that was 7/8" o.d about 6" long in a scrap bin that weighed less than a pound.
So now I've got to figure out who the thief is and how I'm going to catch him. I don't have a single person working here whom I don't trust though. Up until this week I felt I could have left 100's of dollars in cash laying on my desk and no one would touch it. Not anymore.
Posted by glassman on :
damn that's over 10 grand Up....
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
What's your overnight security like Up?
90% chance it is internal but that they completely cleaned you out suggests outside job.
Internal is almost always a little at a time.
Posted by rimasco on :
Heres some questions you might want to ask. Was it done in one night or pilfered? If done on a single occasion what kind of vehicle would they need to haul? 3000 pounds? even spread out and carried in bundles would take some time for two, three guys. 4 guys and the job almost isnt worth it BUT.... to a youngster it might be.
Posted by rimasco on :
Even better check the closest places they could have pawned it off. Maybe even bring some pics along. Might not matter... im sure the buyer knows hes not getting scraps.
Posted by Upside on :
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: What's your overnight security like Up?
90% chance it is internal but that they completely cleaned you out suggests outside job.
Internal is almost always a little at a time.
Ashamed to admit it but the overnight security is non-existent. We have 3 people working a second shift until about 11:00 p.m. but after that there's nothing. No security cameras, no guards, no nothing. There are ways that daytime employees could have gained entrance to the building in the middle of the night too. An example, if one of our delivery trucks comes back early from a shorter than normal route, he's got an overhead door opener in his truck that is supposed to be placed in a lock box but half the time they forget to do it. It would be a simple matter for one of the daytime employees to pocket it, come back at say 2:00 a.m. and clean us out. It's a risk but a fairly minor one.
Another possibility is one of the drivers loading their trucks in the morning. No one is watching them that closely and they could have thrown a bit of it on their trucks here and there as they are loading and then head to a scrap yard while out making deliveries. There's numerous possibilities and I've got a couple of suspects in mind, now it's just a matter of setting them up for a major fall.
Posted by T e x on :
Copper thievery very bad all over...we've had nut jobs opening the base-plate on highway lighting fixtures, then pulling the copper. Crazy...so many ways that go wrong, but they do it.
Posted by rimasco on :
Electrify the pile at night.... shhhhhh but dont tell anybody
Posted by Relentless. on :
Possibly simple. As long as you've not publicly thrown a fit over this, you can simply make the same mistake again... only this time.. bigger... and with cameras. The trick is to act as though you are not worried about the issue... you'll simply write it off. Pointless to call the cops.. bla bla. Swing down to best buy or radio shack and grab a couple cameras. This time if you have copper laying about.. make sure you leave it wide open. If the guy got ten grand worth there is no way he'll be able to pass up another free shot.
Posted by Upside on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Possibly simple. As long as you've not publicly thrown a fit over this, you can simply make the same mistake again... only this time.. bigger... and with cameras. The trick is to act as though you are not worried about the issue... you'll simply write it off. Pointless to call the cops.. bla bla. Swing down to best buy or radio shack and grab a couple cameras. This time if you have copper laying about.. make sure you leave it wide open. If the guy got ten grand worth there is no way he'll be able to pass up another free shot.
That's exactly the plan right now. No police contact, I'm acting like I don't even know about it. Oh and Glassman, clean out your mailbox!
Posted by a surfer on :
quote:Originally posted by Upside: Sign of the times? As some of you know I own a steel service center, small company selling raw material to tool & die shops, machine shops, etc. Sold some 1" diameter, 12' long copper bar stock to a customer Tuesday morning. We showed 15 of them in stock.
About an hour after the order went out into the plant for processing, the guy pulling the stock comes into my office saying he can't find a single length of it out there. Funny, we show 15 and he can't find even 1? Now there's only one place this stock could be located but I decide to go look for myself thinking that someone screwed up and mis-racked it or something. Not only could I not find a single length of it myself but I couldn't find a single piece of any sized copper out there at all. Nothing!
Went back into the office and ran a quick tally of our copper and we were supposed to have close to 3000 pounds of it out there in various sizes, shapes and lentghs. After doing a complete physical inventory, we found one piece of copper pipe that was 7/8" o.d about 6" long in a scrap bin that weighed less than a pound.
So now I've got to figure out who the thief is and how I'm going to catch him. I don't have a single person working here whom I don't trust though. Up until this week I felt I could have left 100's of dollars in cash laying on my desk and no one would touch it. Not anymore.
Jeez UP....
The A/C unit at a rental was ripped off several months back and I thought that sucked....just the coil
Actually what pisses me off is that there are people out there buying this material when they have to know it was stolen.
Posted by Relentless. on :
They just passed a law down here.. or it's about to pass.. That requires all scrap metal yards to keep names, numbers, and I think thumb prints of everyone who sells them junk metal. Stealing then selling scrap copper is huge business everywhere. In fact down here after the storm most looters we taking copper out of houses... easy acsess what with most of the siding washed away from the exterior walls on many houses near the beach and back bay.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: They just passed a law down here.. or it's about to pass.. That requires all scrap metal yards to keep names, numbers, and I think thumb prints of everyone who sells them junk metal. Stealing then selling scrap copper is huge business everywhere. In fact down here after the storm most looters we taking copper out of houses... easy acsess what with most of the siding washed away from the exterior walls on many houses near the beach and back bay.
agree with this, and preceding post.
Posted by Upside on :
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: They just passed a law down here.. or it's about to pass.. That requires all scrap metal yards to keep names, numbers, and I think thumb prints of everyone who sells them junk metal. Stealing then selling scrap copper is huge business everywhere. In fact down here after the storm most looters we taking copper out of houses... easy acsess what with most of the siding washed away from the exterior walls on many houses near the beach and back bay.
They did the same thing here. Anything that comes into a scrapyard that's not aluminum cans or something that obviously came from a guys garage is supposed to be videotaped, the person i.d'ed and so on. But, one of the local televison channels set up a sting where they had a reporter walk in with finished, machined, aluminum parts and a hidden camera. The azzholes at the scrapyard walked this guy through how to sell these parts to them and bypass all the new laws. They basically directed him out to a guy in the yard who paid him cash, no taping of the transaction, no paperwork, no nothing. They're just as unscrupulous as ever. Just made it a little more difficult is all.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Once you've got the guy time to change up proceedures up.
Sorry you have to take such a big hit on the chin.
Maybe the guy will pay back in installments to avoid police and jail. We have had some sucess with that. (Some)
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Upside:
quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Possibly simple. As long as you've not publicly thrown a fit over this, you can simply make the same mistake again... only this time.. bigger... and with cameras. The trick is to act as though you are not worried about the issue... you'll simply write it off. Pointless to call the cops.. bla bla. Swing down to best buy or radio shack and grab a couple cameras. This time if you have copper laying about.. make sure you leave it wide open. If the guy got ten grand worth there is no way he'll be able to pass up another free shot.
That's exactly the plan right now. No police contact, I'm acting like I don't even know about it. Oh and Glassman, clean out your mailbox!
done, relentless' idea is good i agree. might catch a different one tho... (sorry to be such a skeptic)
might look around the parking lot and see if anybody got any new tires or antyhing else outa the ordinary...
as for Rimasco's idea? i REALLY like it the best, but as friend, i have to say it's terrible, you could lose everything, they frown on booby traps outside of wartime Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Depends on how you do it.
Set up a hidden camera in an office to catch the third shift manager sleeping...yea, that'll cause problems. (Especially if they are union)
Set up a camera to watch your stock and just don't advertise it to anyone...not many will murmur about it.
Do yourself a favor and get digital recording equipment, not VHS. You will save yourself a lot of time(though it will cost more.) Also remember to get at least one close up in a choke point for a face shot. If it should go to court (hopefully not) you will need a face or license plate as proof you have fired/fingered the right person.
Posted by cottonjim on :
This happened here at work the other day (night). We had several employees who were on the road so their vehicles were parked in our gravel parking lot. Some person (or people) came in when no one was here and cut the catalitic converters out of 4 cars with a sawzall or something. There was another car that was very low to the ground and the thief(s) started to dig a hole under the car but they either got spooked or gave up trying to dig the gravel. What a wonderful world.
Posted by Upside on :
If only Munchie would have taken me up on my job offer this probably never would have happened. Being the crackerjack that he is I'm sure he'd have immediately spotted our security flaw and handled it in a matter of a few days. Darn you Munch! Where are you in my time of need?
Posted by cottonjim on :
Hell, for all you know the munch might be in the copper business now Posted by glassman on :
last i heard he invested in a stepstool and a squeegee and he washes windsheilds at redlights Posted by glassman on :
this occured to me:
get your self some copper barstock, have a machinist cut it, drill it out, thread it, so you can insert some RF inventory tags, put it back together and then turn it to hide the seem....
hide RF sensors at the doors...
i dunno if copper shields the RF tho? wouldn't be cheap, but you'd know for sure.
Posted by glassman on :
recession signs?
i have a close relative that's fire marshal and he says they are investigating so many suspicious house fires they can't keep up. people are burning their own houses down.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
I think RF uses copper, Glass. Least my tags do.
Not sure what all needs to be done to it but maybe you wouldn't even need to drill it.
Posted by Upside on :
Only problem with that is there's no copper left right now, the Grinch has stolen Christmas and left nothing but a copper crumb behind. I'm not going to re-stock it until we've got some measures in place. I'm working on a plan with some tempting looking aluminum pieces right now. We've got a little bit of brass out there too, I'm going to have to keep close tabs on that as well.
Posted by T e x on :
Have a company party, spread a likkered up rumor you're lookin' to buy some copper...cheap. Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: recession signs?
i have a close relative that's fire marshal and he says they are investigating so many suspicious house fires they can't keep up. people are burning their own houses down.
not difficult to fathom...
get a dog cornered, etc.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by glassman: recession signs?
i have a close relative that's fire marshal and he says they are investigating so many suspicious house fires they can't keep up. people are burning their own houses down. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote Tex:
"not difficult to fathom...
get a dog cornered, etc."
_________________________________________________
Lets look at the positive side for those that let their houses go back to the bank......................
Posted by Relentless. on :
I'll tell you what I can't fathom. I can't fathom my pessimism continuing. I can't fathom humanity succumbing to the "cabal". I cannot see any economic hiccup as anything but finite. I do see the idiots in charge as idiots. I see them underestimate those I call morons. I see them relish their bird's eye view and fear no down draft. But there is.......... Hmmmn There is a morality at this basement level they will never comprehend. There is a unity at this level that transcends any time tested propaganda. We do NOT detest each other's next breath. We do not fight our roommates out of hate. We do not argue with the desire to later dissect every inflection. There is an underestimation made that our words towards each other are literal.
You all know this to be true. Think of how many morons have stumbled across one of our many arguments and commented how we were a group of hate mongers. Not once taking time to do a back check and realize we were in fact making fun of each other or ourselves.
There is still real anger in the black/ African-American/ negro/ Whatever the hell the correct term of the month is.. I don't care. There is real anger. This is a given and will not relinquish it's hold until the "cabal" makes the fatal mistake of taking it for granted. They will exploit it until they are too late to realize it does not exist as anything but a political gimmick. They will hype it and hype it but the reality is no one really cares anymore. They are creating for their benefit an us versus them mentality that will be their downfall. Simply stated there are more of us than them and those cops they are now brainwashing will not forever be able to carry out orders...
Posted by Relentless. on :
Really one has to look at history. How many governments have lasted in a hundred thousand years? ***** and moan as we will, we all know it is government that will fail.. Not us. we have chaos on our side. Chaos trumps organized freedom everytime.
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: quote:
What would you have government do about it? Keep in mind the grubby mitted nature.
Posted by T e x on :
wow...you're on roll.
good prunes?
Posted by glassman on :
I do see the idiots in charge as idiots. I see them underestimate those I call morons.
yes, and America was originally founded as a way to escape that nonesense. Early on? Europeans of of all strata of society sent their smarter younger kids here to get them away from their families so they would not kill their elder siblings to inherit the family wealth. It wasn't until much later that this idea of "adopting" "huddled masses" and po'folk to put to slave labor and wages was adopted for purely economic reasons. It surely wasn't some gesture of pity, (even from the so-called liberals).
There is a rather severe "economic cuttoff line" that begins at people born at the end of the baby boom...
it's about 1957-9... NUMBER OF JOBS HELD, LABOR MARKET ACTIVITY, AND EARNINGS GROWTH AMONG THE YOUNGEST BABY BOOMERS: RESULTS FROM A LONGITUDINAL SURVEY
The average person born in the later years of the baby boom held 10.5 jobs from age 18 to age 40, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor. Nearly three-fifths of these jobs were held from ages 18 to 25. --Individuals born from 1957 to 1964 held an average of 10.5 jobs from ages 18 to 40. These baby boomers held an average of 3.8 jobs while ages 18 to 21. The average fell to 3.0 jobs while ages 22 to 25 and to 2.0 jobs from ages 36 to 40. Jobs that span more than one age group were counted once in each age group, so the overall average number of jobs held from age 18 to age 40 is less than the sum of the number of jobs across the individual age groups.
--Although job duration tends to be longer the older a worker is when starting the job, these baby boomers continued to have large numbers of short-duration jobs even as they approached middle age. Among jobs started by workers when they were ages 36 to 40, 36 percent ended in less than a year and 72 percent ended in fewer than 5 years. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/nlsoy.nr0.htm
the opportunities didn't dry up, but the "expansion" of the "baby boomers" system stopped and the people that had found their way rather easily into "high places" due to rapid expansion had established themselves political ties. they "locked in" and refused to continue to promote their juniors. instead they decided to create a disposable work force. they were/are very hard to displace from their positions of control and their abilities to perform are not the criteria that "gave" them their opportunity or the ability to hold the positions they got into. The opportunities were primarily driven by population demographics.
we have not been living in a meritocracy for a long time now. and some of the stuff they've been teaching kids in schools lately like extreme self esteem regardless of ability will not promote the reformation of meritocracy any time soon...
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote Relentless:
What would you have government do about it? Keep in mind the grubby mitted nature.
_________________________________________________
It appears people are already doing something about it indicated by Glassman's post.
What a sad mess!
Posted by glassman on :
It appears people are already doing something about it indicated by Glassman's post.
What a sad mess!
it's all been part of the consolidation of costs approach to economics. bring two co's together and decrease competition WHILE you cut employment costs.
say you are 30, born in '60. you have just gotten yourself married, two kids (one more coming) and you bought a custom home you have car payments health insurance you both work so you have day-care.
one of your employers co's is doing so well that it gets bought out by a bigger co. you are a junior employee on verge of becoming senior but you are too young to be considered senior no matter how good you are.
you are back on the job market. the second job is not enough to keep everything and you HAVE to keep health insurance which is more expensive at the job kept because it wasn't the better co.
so? you switch over to the more expensive health insurance, have the baby and you EVENTUALLY get another job that's just as good (in 1990 anyway, today that's not even the norm)
BUT? you just ate up 60% of your savings.. you're young. you'll get i back...
and you're on your 4th job at 31.
then your wife's co (that sells 2500$ PC's) has to cut back because PC's just became 1200$ at circuit city and realises there's no future in computer sales at all anymore...
she decides to go back and get her masters. so you dip back into the savings, refi the house take some student loans.. etc...
getting the picture now?
and Greenspan said we need more education but REAL education now costs about the sam as the average home, so you have two mortgages to pay off
we're all still working, it's just that somehow most people in the US are in debt today and this is how it happened...
there is such a thing as the hard-working poor, esp. in the South, and those numbers are growing so fast i personally cannot beleive that the US is not on the verge of tremendous social upheaval....
where i live today? there's no "recession" cuz the "recession" after the civil war has never really ended. Posted by glassman on :
just to be clear? that isn't exactly my story, but it includes elements of mine and other people that i have grown up/associated with over the years.
it's also an attempt to explain why my postings tend to lean toward Obama even tho i am in NOWAY convinced he would be the best president. it's just that the Clintons and the Bush's totally represent the economic system that created this situation we find ourselves in right now. both of them beleive they are somehow entitled to whatever they want.
there is a major disconnect of the entitlement philsophy when you look at people in the US born in 1950 and 1960... they have completely different philisophic approaches. and i don't think the "youngsters" are complaining either, they just don't see the world the same way...
that's why Obama was able to "ambush" Hillary with the younger vote, and he did. she never saw him coming, because she already beleived the nomination was hers.
as for McCain? IMO he does not represent the same values of entitlement. i could be wrong tho.
this latest "elitism" charge against Obama is laughable. even tho he is the beneficiary of afirmative action? and he is. he took advantage the education offered to him and did not "squander" it as so many have (affirmative action recipients or not). will he be a good president if elected? i have no idea. but i believe he understands the average American much better than the Clintons or the Bushes.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
The stock market is not looking so good maybe it will finally catch up with the rest of the economy.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: The stock market is not looking so good maybe it will finally catch up with the rest of the economy.
Agreed. DJI down 300 pts currently and Oil futures at $140. Not a good omen
PS: Tex, we can't even use the * symbol anymore without it being asterisked?
Posted by osubucks30 on :
Yeah oil up because Libya is debating on cutting production.
"Meanwhile, the head of Libya's national oil company said the country may cut crude production because the oil market is well supplied, according to news reports."
Saudi Arabi said the same thing about demand!! I don't care what the media says this is not a supply and demand rise. Supply is fine its that refiners are not buying enough!
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by osubucks30: Yeah oil up because Libya is debating on cutting production.
"Meanwhile, the head of Libya's national oil company said the country may cut crude production because the oil market is well supplied, according to news reports."
Saudi Arabi said the same thing about demand!! I don't care what the media says this is not a supply and demand rise. Supply is fine its that refiners are not buying enough!
Good point osubucks30. But it kinda harkens back to a post by glassman a few days ago. About Exxon selling all of their company owned gas stations. What do they see to make them sell? What are they up to?
Posted by Pagan on :
Here's another blurb:
"Bank of America sees 7,500 job cuts after Countrywide close" - MarketWatch Posted by glassman on :
add to that fact that US sugar sold out the largest sugar mill in the US and 189,000 acres of cane crops this week...
sugar cane is the easiest way to make ethanol...
nothing is making sense right now...
Posted by osubucks30 on :
Now the only question is will it be a depression?
Posted by osubucks30 on :
The government is going to save all these banks!! The CEO's of these companies will continue to rake in millions!! OUR TAX DOLLARS USED SO THE RICH WILL CONTINUE TO GET THEIR $$$!!!!!! Save the people who created the whole situation. GOT TO LOVE THE GOOD OLD USA!!
Posted by Lockman on :
Watch how the French operate because where headed in the same direction.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by osubucks30: Now the only question is will it be a depression?
i think it already is...
i think the American people (in spite of the white house and congress) are actually holding it all together, we've done as asked and spent our money and keep working even tho we seem to be getting treated like crap...
how much more of this should we put up with?
Posted by thinkmoney on :
food and fuel is a bad mix -- why are we letting azzholes tell us otherwise?
Posted by osubucks30 on :
How high will unemployment go?
Posted by osubucks30 on :
in the last depression it hit as high as aprx. 25% and there was no unemployement ins.
Posted by raybond on :
The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll, which surveyed more than 1,000 Americans over the weekend, cited common measures of the economic pain of the 1930s:
25% unemployment rate; widespread bank failures; and millions of Americans homeless and unable to feed their families. In response, 21% of those polled say that a depression is very likely and another 38% say it is somewhat likely.
The poll also found that 29% feel a depression is not very likely, while 13% believe it is not likely at all.
But economists, even many who feel current economic risks are dire, generally don't believe another depression is likely.
"We've been in a recession all year and it's going to get worse," said Anirvan Banerji, director of research for the Economic Cycle Research Institute. "We're going from a relatively mild recession to a more painful recession. But we're a long, long way from a depression."
A survey taken last week by the National Association of Business Economists asked members what would happen if the $700 billion bailout that passed Friday fails to fix frozen credit markets. The consensus forecast of those economists was that, even if continued problems choke off credit to businesses and consumers, unemployment would rise to just 7% in the second quarter of next year .
Other economists recently contacted by CNNMoney.com said that the unemployment rate could rise as high as 10% to 12% next year if the bailout does not work. While that could be roughly double the current 6.1% unemployment rate, it would be only half of the worst rate seen in the Great Depression of the 1930s.
What defines a depression? Banerji's worst-case scenario sees unemployment topping out at just under 10%. That's one of the key reasons that he thinks a true depression is unlikely.
"A depression rate would imply more than doubling or tripling the current unemployment rate," he said.
The Great Depression also saw the gross domestic product, the broad measure of the nation's economic activity, plunge by 13% in 1932.
The NABE survey forecast that GDP will drop 1.1% in the fourth quarter of 2008 if the bailout does not get credit flowing again, and another 0.5% in the first quarter of next year. The economists surveyed by CNNMoney.com said they could foresee a drop of 2% to 4% in a worst-case scenario.
Part of the reason for the far less severe economic pain expected this time are the social safety net programs - including Social Security, unemployment insurance and insurance on bank deposits - that were not in place at the start of the Great Depression.
And experts believe that the Federal Reserve and other officials made many policy mistakes during the Depression that are not likely to be repeated. In fact, the Fed at that time kept lending tight, while today's Fed is pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into the banking system to try to restart lending and spur economic activity.
"The fact is that central banks around the globe will move heaven and earth to avoid having a depression," said Banerji.
Still, other findings of the CNN poll were more in agreement with those of top economists.
The poll found 84% of Americans polled believe that economic conditions are somewhat or very poor, with a majority, 53%, now believing the economy is very poor. That's not far off from the two-thirds of NABE economists who believe the economy is now in a recession or will enter one by the end of this year.
The view of the economy is much bleaker than a comparable CNN/USA Today poll found during the last economic downturn at the start of the decade. During the recession of 2001, only one-third to one-half of those polled felt economic conditions were somewhat or very poor.
Unemployment continued to rise after the recession ended in late 2001, and not surprisingly the view of the economy continued to deteriorate. But at its worst, in a February 2003 poll, only two-thirds of those surveyed described the economy as somewhat or very poor. Just 25% of those surveyed at that time described the economy as very poor, or less than half the level who believe that today.
In addition, the CNN poll released Monday found that 36% believe the current crisis in the nation's financial sector will affect them immediately, while another 19% expect to be affected within the next year. Only 8% believe they will never be affected by the crisis.
Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke have frequently warned in recent weeks that the credit crisis would be felt on Main Street, not just on Wall Street.
And Banerji said that the increasingly grim view of the economy will by itself lead to cutbacks in spending by both consumers and businesses. That in turn will result in greater job losses and more economic pain.
"The fact that the majority of people believe we are going into a depression ensures that the recession will get worse," Banerji said.
First Published: October 6, 2008: 1:18 PM ET
Bailout: Will it work?
How bad will it get?
Jobs: Worst in 5 years
Dow falls below 10,000
Posted by bdgee on :
One thing that this economic mess shows. My contention that the MBA is a crime upon society and the world of scholarship seems well founded viewed with the fact that dubya has one. Any fool can get one by paying for the tuition and being beyond around 27 and it isn't a question of what school granted it. Dubya's was from Harvard and look what good it did us?
Posted by Peaser on :
The poll also found that 29% feel a depression is not very likely
I feel the opposite as this 29% does.
A depression rate would imply more than doubling or tripling the current unemployment rate
My guns'r loaded and ready.
Posted by Peaser on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: a few years ago, we moved to one of these big red blotches as part of a redevelopment program.
Nationally, 12.4 percent of residents are considered to be in poverty. �In Poverty� means that a given person falls below the poverty threshold assigned by the U.S. Census Bureau. Please see our chart topic on Poverty for a discussion of poverty thresholds.
Examination of the map shows, however, that this 12.4 percent is a misleading representation of poverty status across the United States. Poverty is considerably more prevalent in the southern states. In a clear majority of counties in the South, the proportion of persons in poverty is higher than the national rate. http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_poverty.html
it's hardly noticable here.... the crime rate is rising some..
i bet in 2010 the map looks quite different.
interestingly, you can see significant correlation between red state voting and poverty.
our drop out rates in high school are astronomical here too...
You better have multiple guns ready to fire. Posted by Peaser on :
quote:Originally posted by osubucks30: Now the only question is will it be a depression?
Doh, you said the D word.
There's a bigger storm on the horizon...
Posted by raybond on :
alll in all we do have the ground work for a depression I think the next 3 months will tell us a lot.
IMHO could go either way. And I feel the we have just begun to realize the trouble we are in
Posted by Peaser on :
I think it will be another year or two before we know anything.
More layoffs will occur and more businesses will fail. Once the unemployment checks stop coming, we might get a better idea of where we're at.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Even if we manage to avoid a depression in the next year or two, what are the unintended consequences of spending trillions of dollars we don't have on these bailouts? What kind of bubble will that create and will we have runaway inflation due to flooding the country with dollars that were created out of thin air?
Posted by bdgee on :
Whatever, "are the unintended consequences of spending trillions of dollars we don't have on these bailouts", it cannot be worse than what submissive adherence to the religion of the free market has already given us.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:Whatever, "are the unintended consequences of spending trillions of dollars we don't have on these bailouts", it cannot be worse than what submissive adherence to the religion of the free market has already given us.
Yes, bdgee, things can get a LOT worse!
Posted by bdgee on :
And will get much much worse under the far right-wing schemes you propose.
Can't you get reality through your biased head. That free market crap failed, BIG TIME.
That's how we got in this trap.
Posted by Peaser on :
CC Files, I wonder how many more will lose jobs in addition to those involved with the 150+ store closings?
Posted by Peaser on :
So far it looks like just under 8000 losing jobs by New Year's.
Posted by Peaser on :
Close Window Circuit City files for bankruptcy protection Monday, November 10, 2008 RICHMOND, Va. - Circuit City Stores Inc. filed for bankruptcy protection Monday, heading into the busy holiday season hoping the move will help the nation's second-biggest electronics retailer will be able to survive.
The company said it made the filing because it was facing pressure from vendors who threatened to withhold products during the holiday period. The company also said it cut 700 more jobs at its headquarters, after announcing a week ago that it would close 20 percent of its stores and lay off thousands of workers.
Circuit City filed for Chapter 11 protection, which will allow it to keep operating while it develops a reorganization plan. Its Canadian operations also filed for similar protection.
In court documents, Chief Financial Officer Bruce H. Besanko cited three factors: erosion of vendor confidence, decreased liquidity and the global economic crisis.
"Without immediate relief, the company is concerned that it will not receive goods for Black Friday and the upcoming holiday season, which could cause irreparable harm to the company and its stakeholders," Besanko said in the filing.
Shares in Richmond, Va.-based Circuit City fell 14 cents, or about 56 percent, to 11 cents on Monday before being halted.
Circuit City, which has had only one profitable quarter in the past year, has faced significant declines in traffic and heightened competition from rival Best Buy Co. and others. The company laid off about 3,400 retail employees last year and replaced them with lower-paid workers, a move analysts said could backfire, hurting morale and driving away customers.
While the retail industry overall is facing what's expected to be the weakest holiday season in decades, Circuit City's struggles have intensified as nervous consumers spend less and credit has become tighter.
Circuit City is a well-known brand and could re-emerge from bankruptcy, Stifel Nicolaus & Co. analyst David Schick said in a note to investors. "We believe the marketplace has a slot for a higher-end chain with a commissioned sales force," he said.
But Stephen Lubben, a professor at Seton Hall Law School, said Circuit City's survival depends on whether its creditors work with the company "or whether they think they're a lost cause and cut them off permanently."
JPMorgan analyst Christopher Horvers agreed, saying it boiled down to merchandise. "If they can get inventory into the stores, I can think they'll remain competitive."
The company's biggest creditors are its vendors: Hewlett-Packard has a $118.8 million claim followed by Samsung ($115.9 million), Sony ($60 million), Zenith ($41.2 million) and Toshiba ($17.9 million). Smaller creditors include GPS navigation system maker Garmin, Nikon, Lenovo, Eastman Kodak and Mitsubishi.
Deutsche Bank analyst Mike Baker told investors that consumers learning about Circuit City's bankruptcy may go elsewhere because of a lack of confidence in the company.
At a Circuit City Warehouse Store already slated for closure in Milwaukee, Courtney Bergeron, 29, said he heard the news about the company and figured he should see if there were any deals for flat-screen TVs.
Although he saw some discounts - about 15 percent off televisions at least 32 inches wide - Bergeron figured he should wait.
"On Black Friday, they're probably going to be lower than this," he said.
Bergeron and his friend, Bertha Harris, also 29, said they hadn't shopped much at Circuit City over the years. He said Circuit City's selection was limited, so he ended up buying more electronics from Best Buy and discounter Wal-Mart Stores Inc.
Harris said she was always dissatisfied with service at Circuit City. When she asked questions the workers couldn't answer them on their own, she said.
"They knew as much as I knew about things," she said, adding it wasn't much.
Circuit City announced a week ago it planned to close 155 of its more than 700 U.S. stores by Dec. 31. It is laying off about 17 percent of its domestic work force, which could affect up to 7,300 people.
Horvers said the reorganization could help the company get out of leases for certain bad store locations. Schick said that had been one of the company's main issues.
Circuit City "had many problems in the end - but all began, in our view, with holding on to 1980s real estate too long," he wrote.
The company had said last week that it planned to work with landlords to renegotiate leases, lower rent or terminate agreements.
Horvers also found it encouraging that the company was able to secure financing. Circuit City said it had lined up $1.1 billion in loans to provide working capital while it is in bankruptcy protection. That replaces a $1.3 billion asset-backed loan it had been using.
Loans to operate while in bankruptcy are called debtor-in-possession, or DIP, loans.
"That's a big DIP in the current market," said John Penn, a partner at law firm Haynes & Boone who is not involved in the case. "To secure that size DIP now is quite a achievement. With the news of the cuts last week - and vendors wanting to know they can get paid - having a recognizable source like a DIP can calm a lot of vendor concerns."
The company said it had $3.4 billion in assets and $2.32 billion in liabilities as of Aug. 31.
Circuit City posted a wider second-quarter loss in September with a 13 percent decline in sales at stores open at least a year. The company has been under new leadership since late September when Chief Executive Philip J. Schoonover agreed to step down.
---
AP Business Writer Vinnee Tong reported from New York. AP Business Writer Emily Fredrix contributed to this report from Milwaukee.
Posted by Peaser on :
Amylin to cut 340 workers in San Diego.
Posted by Peaser on :
Anyone know how much Buffet would lose if GE files Chapter 11?
Posted by Peaser on :
Not sure what that author was smokin' when he made up that title. Just wait and see what title this moron comes up with in six months.
"unexpectedly" - Idiot!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
"If the American People ever allow private banks (the Fed)to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations which grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children grow up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered". - Thomas Jefferson
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: "If the American People ever allow private banks (the Fed)to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations which grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children grow up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered". - Thomas Jefferson
hmmmmm..... too bad Woodrow Wilson didn't follow his advice...
TJ also said:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
Thomas Jefferson Posted by glassman on :
how and when the free market economy was destroyed in just 15 short years:
1906 pure food and drug act 1913 the creation of the Federal Reserve 1912 the International Opium Convention 1914 Harrison act 1915 Utah outlawed Marijuana (the Mormons didn't like it) 1919 the 18th amendment (prohibition)
Posted by Peaser on :
Oh, the comparisons...
Posted by osubucks30 on :
US Consumers Hit By Credit Crisis, And Everybody Pays
"Over the past decade, American households have piled on $8 trillion in debt, an increase of 137 percent, twice the gain seen in the size of the economy."
" At $14 trillion, the debt load is now roughly equal to the entire economy's annual output. Much of the increase comes from home mortgages, which have expanded by $6 trillion since 1998, but it also reflects higher balances on credit cards and auto loans."
Posted by osubucks30 on :
It will take a long time to get out as we fall deeper into this black hole!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:It will take a long time to get out as we fall deeper into this black hole!
Just a few months ago, all the experts were saying that we would recover by the second half of 2008. So, good times should be here in the next 6 weeks!!!
Posted by Peaser on :
lol
Posted by Upside on :
It's going to be ugly for a bit but not the doom and gloom that everyone is predicting. We're finally getting the re-boot of the credit and housing markets that has been overdue for a long time. We'll suffer for awhile because of the fear thats being instilled by the media but in the end, we're a consumer driven economy.
I hate to sound like a ~~~shudder~~~ Reupublican but this crisis is not going to have much of an impact on the type of consumers that drive the economy. Unfortunately, the ones who are really going to suffer are the people who have been living beyond their means from paycheck to paycheck and weren't really consumers in the first place. Those are the ones who are really going to feel it.
My guess is that we're all going to hunker down for a spell but as the current round of deflation really takes hold, there's going to be a buying flurry unlike anything ever seen before, both in consumer spending and in the stock market. Things will improve at a fairly rapid clip, the same mistakes will be made again and the cycle will eventually repeat itself.
The Great Meltdown that so many are predicting and for some reason seem to be hoping for? Not gonna happen.
Posted by Peaser on :
Twice as many folks showing up at food pantry's this year. Downside, the shelves are bare:
It never used to be "so many." When did that change?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Peaser: The Great Meltdown that so many are predicting
It never used to be "so many." When did that change?
two weeks ago
Posted by bdgee on :
Been going on around here for months if not years.
Unemployment has been out of bounds way more than weeks.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
quote:Originally posted by Upside: I hate to sound like a ~~~shudder~~~ Reupublican but this crisis is not going to have much of an impact on the type of consumers that drive the economy. Unfortunately, the ones who are really going to suffer are the people who have been living beyond their means from paycheck to paycheck and weren't really consumers in the first place. Those are the ones who are really going to feel it.
Hmm.. all those who took out home equity lines weren't driving the economy??? The average American was spending more then they make so by your comment the average American will be hurt. The gig is up we now have to spend what we make. The easy credit days are over for now. The average American DOES DRIVE THE ECONOMY.
Posted by osubucks30 on :
States and local government are starting to cut and will have to continue to cut. Once they cut as much as they can and still are red what do you think is going to happen?? Here in Columbus the local government are saying we need more revenue. Well that means more taxes for me!! All state and local governments are going to have to raise taxes because unlike our government they have to balance the books. I am sure the feds will help out a little. If they can help out companies they sure should help local governments. The only problem is we spend money we don't have. WHAT A MESS!! LOOKS TO ME LIKE THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE MAY BE ON THE BRINK!!
Posted by glassman on :
LOOKS TO ME LIKE THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE MAY BE ON THE BRINK!!
it's been looking that way to me for years...
i am seriously thinking of moving to China where they way of life can only get better Posted by wallymac on :
Hmm, so after 911, many took the President's words as a patriot and went out and shopped, even with money they didn't have so they could show the terrorist's that America would still be America. Problem was that the President and Government decided that America was no longer America and decided to change it.
Do you like the change?
Me, I'd pay more taxes in order to keep the freedoms that the country was based upon and make sacrifices where neccessary.
I was prepared, at the time, to do whatever was necessary. To show the terrorist's that they could not change America. I guess I was in the minority. Or was I?
Posted by Peaser on :
I was prepared, at the time, to do whatever was necessary. To show the terrorist's that they could not change America. I guess I was in the minority. Or was I?
Naive.
Posted by glassman on :
naive? i usually refrain from posting osambinalivetoolong quotes, i'm sure this is just a coincidence...
Bin Laden: Goal is to bankrupt U.S. Al-Jazeera releases full transcript of al Qaeda leader's tape
Monday, November 1, 2004 Posted: 8:07 PM EST (0107 GMT) (CNN) -- The Arabic-language network Al-Jazeera released a full transcript Monday of the most recent videotape from Osama bin Laden in which the head of al Qaeda said his group's goal is to force America into bankruptcy.
Yes, naive. No one said anything to the average citizen about spending above ones means and blaming it on terrorism. Only the government is allowed to do that and get away with it.
Well, I guess banks are included now too, the auto makers might be next, and then the airline industry.
Posted by Peaser on :
Democrats in the lame-duck Congress are pressing for a bailout of Detroit's Big Three with money from the $700 billion Wall Street rescue package. But President George W. Bush and many Republicans have come out against the idea, arguing that the financial rescue package was not intended for such uses, and that a bailout would reward poor management and lead other industries to demand government handouts.
watch this video, Peter Schiff is one of the people that i stop what i'm doing and listen to when he's on. it always amazes how many people get on TV that have no clue what they are talking about:
Schiff predicting that the bailout will fail, which I agree with.
Posted by bdgee on :
It may indeed. But there is also the possibility that its success as a savior of the financial segment of our society isn't as important as its "other" effects (affects too, maybe).
Much of the "announced" efforts toward the "New Deal that "Roosevelt gave via "Fireside Chats" were never successful and were never expected to be by those "in the know". It was the "Fireside Chats" themselves that made the Nation able to survive.
There is so much more to successful politics than waging election campaigns and organizing votes in Congress (and even more than reconciling the Treasury). There is leadership.
Posted by Peaser on :
Kind of like a cushion to the fall so to speak.
Where might the ice come from for the black eye on this go'round?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
I predict U.S. bankruptcy in Feb 2009
Posted by Peaser on :
According to what International Laws?
If the US goes under, so will many other countries.
Posted by Peaser on :
Provided By NY AG urges Citigroup execs to forego bonuses NY attorney general urges Citigroup executives to forgo bonuses this year; cites layoffs Monday November 17, 2008, 2:13 pm EST
ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) -- New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo says Citigroup executives should forgo their bonuses this year after the company announced massive layoffs.
Calling the layoffs of 53,000 people "disturbing," Cuomo says top executives shouldn't get bonuses while investors, taxpayers and employees suffer.
Cuomo adds that other companies should consider doing the same, including American International Group, which has received billions of federal bailout dollars.
In October, Cuomo's office asked nine banks to turn over information on bonuses. He wants to ensure none of the $125 billion the banks received from the government's Troubled Asset Relief Program will be used on executive pay.
Goldman Sachs Group announced Sunday its top executives won't get bonuses this year.
Posted by raybond on :
Close Window Big Three automakers beg for $25 billion lifeline Tuesday, November 18, 2008 WASHINGTON - Detroit's Big Three automakers pleaded with Congress on Tuesday for a $25 billion lifeline to save their once-proud companies from collapse, warning of broader peril for the national economy as well.
"Our industry ... needs a bridge to span the financial chasm that has opened up before us," General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner told the Senate Banking Committee in prepared testimony. He blamed the industry's predicament not on failures by management but on the deepening global financial crisis.
But the new rescue plan appeared stalled on Capitol Hill, opposed by Republicans and the Bush administration who don't want to dip into the Treasury Department's $700 billion financial bailout program to come up with the $25 billion.
Sympathy for he industry was sparse.
Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., told Wagoner and leaders of Ford and Chrysler that the industry was "seeking treatment for wounds that were largely self-inflicted."
Still, he said, "Hundreds of thousands would lose their jobs" if the companies were allowed to collapse.
Sen. Mike Enzi, R-Wyo., complained that the larger financial crisis "is not the only reason why the domestic auto industry is in trouble."
He cited "inefficient production" and "costly labor agreements" that put the U.S. automakers at a disadvantage with foreign companies.
Wagoner said that despite some public perceptions that General Motors was not keeping pace with the times and technological changes, "We've moved aggressively in recent years to position GM for long-term success. And we were well on the road to turning our North American business around."
"What exposes us to failure now is the global financial crisis, which has severely restricted credit availability and reduced industry sales to the lowest per-capita level since World War II."
Failure of the auto industry "would be catastrophic," he said, resulting in three million jobs lost within the first year and "economic devastation (that) would far exceed the government support that our industry needs to weather the current crisis."
Congressional leaders worked behind the scenes in an effort to hammer out a compromise that could speed some aid to the automakers before year's end. But the outlook seemed poor.
"My sense is that nothing's going to happen this week," Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., said at the opening of the hearing.
Earlier, Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said Congress might have to return in December - rather than adjourning for the year this week, as expected - to push through an auto bailout.
"Dealing with the automobile crisis is a pressing need. We are talking about a lot of people ... and a great consequence to our economy," said Hoyer, D-Md.
The financial situation for the automakers grows more precarious by the day. Cash-strapped GM said it will delay reimbursing its dealers for rebates and other sales incentives and could run out of cash by year's end without government aid.
In the Senate, Democrats discussed but rejected the option favored by the White House and GOP lawmakers to let the auto industry use a $25 billion loan program created by Congress in September - designed to help the companies develop more fuel-efficient vehicles - to tide them over financially until President-elect Barack Obama takes office.
"There was no indication that there was any traction" for the White House plan, Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska said after a Democratic caucus luncheon.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and other senior Democrats, who count environmental groups among their strongest supporters, have vehemently opposed that approach because it would divert federal money that was supposed to go toward the development of vehicles that use less gasoline.
Instead, they want to draw the $25 billion directly from the $700 billion Wall Street bailout - bringing the government's total aid to the car companies to $50 billion.
A Senate vote on that plan, which would also extend jobless benefits, could come as early as Thursday, but aides in both parties and lobbyists tracking the effort privately acknowledge it doesn't have the support to advance. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson renewed the administration's opposition on Tuesday.
Even the car companies' strongest supporters conceded Tuesday that changing the terms of the fuel-efficiency loan program might be the only way to secure funding for them with Congress set to depart for the year and the firms in tough financial shape.
"While I believe we have to have retooling going into next year, if in the short run the only way we have to be able to get some immediate help is to take a portion of that, I would very reluctantly do that - but only because I believe President-elect Obama is going to be focused on retooling and on a manufacturing strategy next year," said Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich.
The White House said the government shouldn't send any more money to the struggling auto industry on top of the already-approved loans.
"We don't think that taxpayers should be asked to throw money at a company that can't prove that it has a long-term path for success," said White House Press Secretary Dana Perino.
Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., the minority leader, said that redirecting the existing loans was "a sound way to go forward," and that he was working with Democratic Leader Harry Reid of Nevada to set a vote on such a plan.
"The auto industry obviously is very important, very important to my state, but there is a way to do this," said McConnell, who has two Ford plants and a GM plant in his state.
Paulson, testifying on the House side, defended the administration's handling of the massive $700 billion bailout for the financial industry and said it should remain off-limits for Detroit, no matter how badly the automakers need help.
"There are other ways" to help them, he said.
At the same time, he testified, "I think it would be not a good thing, it would be something to be avoided, having one of the auto companies fail, particularly during this period of time."
The industry mounted a feverish lobbying effort to secure funds they said were vital to their survival - and the health of the broader economy. In an e-mail marked "urgent" and sent to owners of GM vehicles, Troy A. Clarke, president of GM North America, pleaded with them to e-mail their representatives in the House and Senate in support of a "bridge loan" for the industry - and ask their friends and family to do the same.
"Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid," Clarke said in the message.
That argument could be vital as bailout fatigue threatens to sap support for the carmaker aid.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
The bottom line is that Obama and the Dems owe the unions big time. I beleive that the Dems will bail out the Big 3 to save those union jobs and the union retirees.
Mike
Posted by Peaser on :
I think that GM will fail before Obama takes the reigns. We'll see.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:I think that GM will fail before Obama takes the reigns.
States will have to continue to cut! All this we add to the recession. Like I keep saying in a few years life in America will be different. None of this was ever sustainable. The sad thing is no one seems to be prepared for this. Don't worry tho the federal government will loan them money(money we don't have).
Starting to look like states are going to have to raise taxes on just about everything. Its goingto be ugly. I mean most of these states had troubles after 9/11 with that mini downturn. This is going to be alot worse. I mean unemployment has already surpassed what it was during that period!
Posted by osubucks30 on :
edit
Posted by raybond on :
Economy and housing sales post declines Tuesday December 23, 7:42 pm ET By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer Fourth-quarter economic decline likely to be far worse than 0.5 percent drop in third quarter
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The longest recession in a quarter century is snowballing, and some analysts warn that economic activity could plunge as much as 6 percent this quarter, which would be the largest decline since 1982. While government figures released Tuesday for the third quarter showed only a 0.5 percent drop in the gross domestic product, a key indicator of economic health, two reports on home sales sketched a bleaker picture. Demand for both new and existing homes fell more sharply in November than expected.
In addition, GDP is likely falling at a sharper pace in the current quarter because of widening fallout from the worst financial crisis to hit the country since the Great Depression. If GDP does plunge 6 percent in the fourth quarter, it would be the sharpest such decline since a 6.4 percent drop in the first quarter of 1982.
"It will get a lot worse before it gets better," said Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at IHS Global Insight, a Lexington, Mass., forecasting firm. "We are in the midst of the worst recession in the postwar period, even factoring in a massive stimulus program."
Economists said they saw no likelihood of a quick turnaround in housing or the overall economy, given that the credit markets remain locked despite a $700 billion financial rescue package and billions of dollars of loans supplied by the Federal Reserve. Mortgage financing has dried up for many potential buyers, further damaging a housing industry struggling with a tide of foreclosures.
Wall Street pulled back in quiet trading ahead of the holiday after the reports were released Tuesday morning. The Dow Jones industrial average finished lower for the fifth straight day, falling 100 points to close about 8,419.
The Bush administration warned that the country should be prepared for worse news to come.
"The fourth quarter, because of the credit crisis, the standstill in credit as markets froze up and the financial market turmoil, will be significantly weaker," presidential spokesman Tony Fratto told reporters at the White House on Tuesday.
President-elect Barack Obama's administration is assembling a stimulus package that could reach $850 billion for spending on infrastructure such as roads and bridges, aid to states, modernizing schools and energy project.
Vice President-elect Joe Biden told a meeting of Obama's economic team that as the economy worsens, the need for a bold plan "grows every day."
Still, private economists said that even if the Obama administration achieves its goal of enacting a stimulus program in January, it won't arrive soon enough to keep the economy from enduring a severe downturn well into next year.
Behravesh said he thinks the recession will bottom out this quarter with the biggest quarterly drop yet in GDP. But he forecast another sizable decline of around 4 percent in the first three months of 2009, and then a slightly smaller drop in the second quarter before the economy begins to rebound next summer.
Other economists are even more pessimistic. Joshua Shapiro, chief U.S. economist at MFR Inc., said he did not see the GDP turning positive until 2010. "There were just so many excesses that the correction process is going to take a long time," he said.
The current recession began in December 2007. That means it's already the longest downturn since the 16-month recession of 1981-82. That downturn and another 16-month slump in 1973-75 are tied as the longest recessions since World War II.
Some analysts said the downturn could be the most severe since the Great Depression, if measured by both duration and lost output.
Commerce reported Tuesday that GDP fell at an annual rate of 0.5 percent in the third quarter, which was unchanged from the estimate the government made a month ago. But their report showed that corporate profits fell 1.2 percent during the quarter, the fifth straight quarterly drop and even worse than the 0.9 percent decline estimated a month ago.
Separately, the Commerce Department said new home sales dropped 2.9 percent in November to an annual sales rate of 407,000 units, the slowest pace in nearly 18 years. And the National Association of Realtors said sales of previously owned homes fell by 8.6 percent to an annual rate of 4.49 million units.
The median sales price of an existing home plunged 13.2 percent in November to $181,300. That was the biggest year-over-year drop since 1968. The median, or midpoint, price for a new home sold in November also fell sharply, dropping 12.7 percent to $220,400.
The 0.5 percent drop in GDP in the third quarter followed a 2.8 percent increase in the spring, a period that was boosted by the distribution of millions of economic stimulus payments. GDP was up 0.9 percent in the first quarter after having dropped by 0.2 percent in the fourth quarter of 2007.
The National Bureau of Economic Research has determined that the country slipped into a recession in December 2007.
While a common rule of thumb for a recession is two consecutive quarters of falling GDP, the NBER uses other data to determine when recessions begin and end, including employment statistics. The economy has lost jobs every month since January. It's shed 1.9 million payroll jobs this year, including more than a half-million jobs lost just in November. The unemployment rate now stands at a 15-year high of 6.7 percent.
For the government's last look at July-September GDP, there were only minor revisions. Spending by consumers plunged at an annual rate of 3.8 percent, slightly more than the 3.7 percent fall reported a month ago. It was the biggest decline in consumer spending, which accounts for two-thirds of economic activity, in nearly three decades. An 8.6 percent drop was recorded in the second quarter of 1980.
Residential construction, where the current economic troubles began, fell at an annual rate of 16 percent in the third quarter, while nonresidential construction, which had been buffering the construction industry, faltered as well, dropping by 1.7 percent.
The Treasury Department, meantime, said it has provided an additional $4.7 billion to 92 banks as part of the government's $700 billion rescue of the financial system.
The department released a list of 49 banks that got final approval last Friday to receive $2.8 billion. It said an additional 43 banks received final approval Tuesday, but those names will not be released until Monday.
Treasury also confirmed that it had given preliminary approval to American Express Co. and CIT Group to receive support from the $700 billion bailout fund.
In related moves, shareholders approved two acquisitions that were forced by banks' massive credit losses.
PNC Financial Services Group Inc. and National City Corp. shareholders approved PNC's acquisition of the Cleveland-based bank. The deal is expected to be complete by late 2009.
And Wells Fargo & Co. and Wachovia Corp. shareholders approved Wells Fargo's $11.8 billion purchase of Wachovia.
Posted by Peaser on :
I think any recovery is still far off. How can we grow in the future?? The savings rate will continue to rise and corporations are freezing wages and cut workers! The question is will America survive all of this? The debt is unsustainable at current levels.
Posted by bdgee on :
"The question is will America survive all of this? The debt is unsustainable at current levels."
Yes, but try to do without it at least for a while and much of the world won't have a chance to survive. It is nasty tasting foul smelling stuff, but it is a necessary medicine.
We are the only superpower left in the world and it isn't an easy burden in ways not normally mentioned in that context.
Posted by raybond on :
I hate to say it but some of these big corporatiion are just cancer it is time to save those that are saveable and let the bad let them die some we will have to nationalize if they are a necessary to the economy.
It will be a hard decision for thoes that have a job with the ones we can't save but I think we are going to be in for one hell of a ride and I hope we get through it
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:"The question is will America survive all of this? The debt is unsustainable at current levels."
NO! America as we have known it for the past 200+ years will not sirvive. I expect a total collapse of the economy and the government. The only hope we have it that we can re-emerge as a capitalistic country with some common sense.
The socialists control the government and they are going wild. Cap and Trade is a financial disaster waiting to happen; diminishing the home mortgage interest deduction in the middle of a housing crisis is absurd; diminishing the deduction for charitable giving is ridiculous; raising taxes on just about everyone is insane - yes, the economy is absolutely going to collapse!
I suggest buying food, water, and ammo - while you still can!
Posted by jordanreed on :
Posted by glassman on :
raising taxes on just about everyone is insane - yes, the economy is absolutely going to collapse!
and lowering taxes while waging two wars was immoral.
the economy isn't something seperate from the people...
it isn't the "economy" that will fail or not. it's the people that will fail or not. are you a loser? i'm not.
Posted by bdgee on :
He is a damned fool and a 1st class jerk.
Posted by raybond on :
What socialist are you talking about PM ? There is none that I see the last socialist that I knew off were in the Soviet Union and they had elements of capitalism in them.
I think you are confusing common sense with socialism
Posted by jordanreed on :
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "raising taxes on just about everyone is insane - yes, the economy is absolutely going to collapse!"
....whats insane is that you and the rest of the trained seals want that to happen!...whats up with that?
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "raising taxes on just about everyone is insane - yes, the economy is absolutely going to collapse!"
....whats insane is that you and the rest of the trained seals want that to happen!...whats up with that?
They think that having been trained to honk the horn when told and to clap their flippers on command and being fed a bit of dead fish for doing so, that amounts to all there is and all there ever was or will be, so they are busy clapping their flippers and honking the horn, because that is how a trained seal does things.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Random comment.
Did you know that, according to the census bureau, in 2001 approximately 40$ of all property was owned free and clear without a mortgage?
i would be willing to bet that number is quite a bit lower since '01...
alot of people took out loans on their property...
i don't have time to read thru that now, i wonder how many different people own the fully paid for property?
also? i wonder how much of it was collateralised by something other than a mortgage?
Posted by raybond on :
Unemployment in California officially hit 10.1% this morning
Posted by thinkmoney on :
What Obams is doing is insane!
How is it that so many are letting him ?? As Usa is trying to deal with the mess, obama says - spend spend spend - lets bailout the banks,the autos, the homeowners who made bad decions and weaken all who worked hard and made good decisions- An, lets spend more for health, college for all- geez- does anyone think that there will be any folks left that wnat to work?
Posted by a surfer on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: raising taxes on just about everyone is insane - yes, the economy is absolutely going to collapse!
and lowering taxes while waging two wars was immoral.
the economy isn't something seperate from the people...
it isn't the "economy" that will fail or not. it's the people that will fail or not. are you a loser? i'm not.
Great point.
He who thinks we are doomed is doomed.
We've needed to end or at least slow down the mass consumerism for decades now.
Here is our chance.
I just said to my wife today that we should be grateful this is happening now while we are still young and robust.
Posted by bdgee on :
think...,
All these predictions that the economy will fail because of what Obama is doing, your's included, are what is insane. The economy has already failed and the insane worship of the free market, including your cries to keep on doing the insane things that cause it to fail, is what is truly insane.
Posted by raybond on :
Conservative republicans should be called the tax and spend party they have screwed this country up since Reagan. Speaking of him and Bush one they took a country that was 900 billion in debt and turned it into 2.7 trillion. Bush 2 the real republican idiot took 5 trillion and turned it into 12.5 trillionDebt.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: think...,
All these predictions that the economy will fail because of what Obama is doing, your's included, are what is insane. The economy has already failed and the insane worship of the free market, including your cries to keep on doing the insane things that cause it to fail, is what is truly insane.
i have to disagree very strongly that people were worshipping the freemarket...
what has been going on is anything BUT a freemarket.
i could spend a month here just posting examples of how larger companies and Wall St. have destroyed competition for money, and nothing else.
the fact is? large corporations destroy competition every day not because of, or due to being better competitors. they do it simply because they were there first, and they can.
Wall St destroys small corporations all the time using rumors and lies that cannot be fought.
freemarketism is just a figment of the imagination of the propagandists.
Congress has been at the beck and call of lobbyists. what we've had is corporate control of America for 30 years now, and you see what it got us..
Posted by Relentless. on :
quote:Originally posted by raybond: Conservative republicans should be called the tax and spend party they have screwed this country up since Reagan. Speaking of him and Bush one they took a country that was 900 billion in debt and turned it into 2.7 trillion. Bush 2 the real republican idiot took 5 trillion and turned it into 12.5 trillionDebt.
No different from what Democrats do... There is no such thing as a two party system... Has not been for many years.
Posted by raybond on :
Buffett says nation will face higher unemployment By JOSH FUNK, AP Business Writer Josh Funk, Ap Business Writer 2 hrs 15 mins ago
OMAHA, Neb. – Billionaire Warren Buffett remains confident that America's best days are ahead, but he says the nation likely will face higher unemployment and eventually inflation because of the current economic crisis. Buffett said the nation's leaders need to emphasize a consistent message, and they should support President Barack Obama's efforts to repair the economy because fear is dominating Americans' behavior.
Buffett said the economy has basically followed the worst-case scenario he envisioned six months ago.
"It's fallen off a cliff," Buffett said Monday during a live appearance on cable network CNBC. "Not only has the economy slowed down a lot, but people have really changed their habits like I haven't seen."
Buffett said the changes are reflected in the results of Berkshire Hathaway Inc.'s subsidiaries. He said Berkshire's jewelry companies have suffered, but more people have been willing to switch to Geico to save money on car insurance. The three-hour-long interview aired from another Berkshire subsidiary that has been hampered by the economy, the Nebraska Furniture Mart store in Omaha.
He predicted that unemployment will climb a lot higher before the recession is done, but he also reiterated his optimistic long-term view: "Everything will be all right. We do have the greatest economic machine that man has ever created."
Fear and confusion have been driving consumer and investor behavior in recent months, Buffett said.
The nation's leaders need to clear up the confusion before anyone will become more confident, and he said all 535 members of Congress should stop the partisan bickering about solutions. He said politicians should also stop trying to use the current economic crisis to force through other policy changes.
"We ought to defer most of the things that get people riled up," Buffett said.
Buffett said he believes patriotic Republicans and Democrats will realize the nation is engaged in an economic war.
"What is required is a commander in chief that's looked at like a commander in chief in a time of war," Buffett said.
Whatever the government does to help the economy will likely benefit some people who made poor financial decisions, but Buffett said Americans should realize that everyone is in the same boat.
"The people that behaved well are no doubt going to find themselves taking care of the people who didn't behave well," Buffett said.
The current efforts to help revive the economy are likely to produce inflation that could be worse than what the country suffered in the late 1970s, Buffett said.
But even though the nation will have to pay for current policies with future inflation, Buffett said, the U.S. government still needs to act.
"We're in a big war, and we're going to use money to fight it," he said.
Maintaining faith in the nation's banking system will be important to restoring the economy's health, Buffett added. He said President Barack Obama needs to make it very clear that consumers won't lose money in banks even if more fail.
"If you don't trust where you have your money, the world stops," Buffett said.
Most banks are in good shape, Buffett said, and even some of the troubled banks will be able to remedy their problems over time by reducing dividends and collecting the difference between interest payments they receive on loans and the interest they pay on deposits.
"The banking system largely will cure itself," Buffett said.
A little over a week ago, Buffett released his annual letter to shareholders describing the worst of his 44 years at the helm of Berkshire. The Omaha, Neb.-based company reported sharply lower profit because of its largely unrealized $7.5 billion investment and derivative losses.
Overall, Berkshire's 2008 profit of $4.99 billion, or $3,224 per Class A share, was down 62 percent from $13.21 billion, or $8,548 per share, in 2007.
Berkshire's fourth-quarter numbers were even worse. Buffett's company reported net income of $117 million, or $76 per share, down 96 percent from $2.95 billion, or $1,904 per share, a year earlier.
Buffett said he doesn't regret writing a commentary in the fall encouraging people to buy U.S. stocks, but he joked that in hindsight he wishes he'd waited a few months to publish the piece. Since that commentary appeared on Oct. 17, the Dow Jones industrial average has fallen from 8,852.22 to close at 6,626.94 on Friday.
Buffett stands by his overall advice that owning stocks over time will profit people greater than so-called safe investments.
"Overall, equities are going to do far better than U.S. government bonds at these prices," he said.
Buffett said he doesn't regret investing $8 billion of Berkshire's money in investment bank Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and conglomerate General Electric Co. last fall. Both companies gave Berkshire preferred shares paying 10 percent interest that Buffett said he doesn't think he could get now.
Buffett also said on CNBC:
• That General Motors Corp. needs a new business plan to survive because its costs are too high, but it's difficult to predict how a solution will be reached. "You are in a terrible, terrible time period for the car makers every place."
• Berkshire has made several large investments over the past year and reduced its cash on hand to $24.3 billion at the end of 2008. Buffett said that means Berkshire will likely write fewer insurance policies on catastrophic events in 2009 because he wants to make sure the company always has at least $10 billion on hand.
"My job is to be absolutely sure Berkshire doesn't need help from anyone in the worst of times," Buffett said.
• Any deal negotiated last summer made the sellers very happy and the buyers unhappy today. That's part of why Buffett said Dow Chemical Co.'s $15 billion bid to buy rival chemical maker Rohm & Haas Co. has not been consummated. "The world has changed like nobody ever believed it would," he said.
But Buffett said the $3 billion Berkshire committed to the Dow deal remains solid if the two chemical companies can agree on how to close the deal.
Berkshire owns a diverse mix of more than 60 companies, including insurance, furniture, carpet, jewelry, restaurants and utility businesses. And it has major investments in such companies as Wells Fargo & Co. and Coca-Cola Co.
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
The 10 Major Newspapers That Will Either Fold or Go Digital Next By 24/7 Wall St. – Mon Mar 9, 12:30 pm ET
Over the last few weeks, the newspaper industry has entered a new period of decline. The parent of the papers in Philadelphia declared bankruptcy as did the Journal Register chain. The Rocky Mountain News closed and the Seattle Post Intelligencer, owned by Hearst, will almost certainly close or only publish online. Hearst has said it will also close The San Francisco Chronicle if it cannot make massive cuts at the paper. The most recent rumor is that the company will fire half of the editorial staff. That action still may not be enough to make the property profitable.
24/7 Wall St. has created its list of the ten major daily papers that are most likely to fold or shut their print operations and only publish online. The properties were chosen based on the financial strength of their parent companies, the amount of direct competition that they face in their markets, and industry information on how much money they are losing. Based on this analysis, it is possible that eight of the fifty largest daily newspapers in the United States could cease publication in the next eighteen months. (Read: "The Race for a Better Read")
1. The Philadelphia Daily News. The smaller of the two papers owned by The Philadelphia Newspapers LLC, which recently filed for bankruptcy. The parent company says it will make money this year, but with newspaper advertising still falling sharply, the city cannot support two papers and the Daily News has a daily circulation of only about 100,000. The tabloid has a small staff, most of whom could probably stay on at Philly.com, the web operation for both of the city dailies.
2. The Minneapolis Star Tribune has filed for Chapter 11. The paper may not make money this year even without the costs of debt coverage. The company said it made $26 million last year, about half of what it made in 2007. The odds are that the Star Tribune will lose money this year if its ad revenue drops another 20%. There is no point for creditors to keep the paper open if it cannot generate cash. It could become an all-digital property, but supporting a daily circulation of over 300,000 is too much of a burden. It could survive if its rival the St. Paul Pioneer Press folds. A grim race.
3. The Miami Herald, which has a daily circulation of about 220,000. It is owned by McClatchy, a publicly traded company which could be the next chain to go into Chapter 11. The Herald has been on the market since December, and but no serious bidders have emerged. Newspaper advertising has been especially hard hit in Florida because of the tremendous loss in real estate advertising. The online version of the paper is already well-read in the Miami area and Latin America and the Caribbean. The Herald has strong competition north of it in Fort Lauderdale. There is a very small chance it could merge with the Sun-Sentinel, but it is more likely that the Herald will go online-only with two editions, one for English-speaking readers and one for Spanish.
4. The Detroit News is one of two daily papers in the big American city badly hit by the economic downturn. It is unlikely that it can merge with the larger Detroit Free Press which is owned by Gannett. It is hard to see what would be in it for Gannett. With the fortunes of Detroit getting worse each day, cutting back the number of days that the paper is delivered will not save enough money to keep the paper open.
5. The Boston Globe is, based on several accounts, losing $1 million a week. One investment bank recently said that the paper is only worth $20 million. The paper is the flagship of what the Globe's parent, The New York Times, calls the New England Media Group. NYT has substantial financial problems of its own. Last year, ad revenue for the New England properties was down 18%. That is likely to continue or get worse this year. Supporting larger losses at the Globe will become nearly impossible. Boston.com, the online site that includes the digital aspects of the Globe, will probably be all that will be left of the operation.
6. The San Francisco Chronicle. Parent company Hearst has already set a deadline for shutting the paper if it cannot make tremendous cost cuts. The Chronicle lost as much as $70 million last year. Even if the company could lower its costs, the northern California economy is in bad shape. The online version of the paper could be the only version by the middle of the 2009.
7. The Chicago Sun Times is the smaller of two newspapers in the city. Its parent company, Sun-Times Media Group trades for $.03 a share. Davidson Kempner, a large shareholder in the firm, has dumped the CEO and most of the board. The paper has no chance of competing with The Chicago Tribune.
8. NY Daily News is one of several large papers fighting for circulation and advertising in the New York City area. Unlike The New York Times, New York Post, Newsday, and Newark Star Ledger, the Daily News is not owned by a larger organization. Real estate billionaire Mort Zuckerman owns the paper. Based on figures from other big dailies it could easily lose $60 million or $70 million and has no chance of recovering from that level
9. The Fort Worth Star Telegram is another one of the big dailies that competes with a larger paper in a neighboring market - Dallas. The parent of The Dallas Morning News, Belo, is arguably a stronger company that the Star Telegram's parent, McClatchy. The Morning News has a circulation of about 350,000 and the Star Telegram has just over 200,000. The Star Telegram will have to shut down or become an edition of its rival. Putting them together would save tens of millions of dollars a year.
10. The Cleveland Plain Dealer is in one of the economically weakest markets in the country. Its parent, Advance Publications, has already threatened to close its paper in Newark. Employees gave up enough in terms of concessions to keep the paper open. Advance, owned by the Newhouse family, is carrying the burden of its paper plus Conde Nast, its magazine group which is losing advertising revenue. The Plain Dealer will be shut or go digital by the end of next year.
- Douglas A. McIntyre
Posted by bdgee on :
"freemarketism is just a figment of the imagination of the propagandists."
I do, indeed, agree with that....and their propaganda is successfully and incessantly repeated enough to have captured the minds of most republicans, who then imagine it too.
Posted by raybond on :
Print Back to story
The 10 Major Newspapers That Will Either Fold or Go Digital Next By 24/7 WALL ST. 24/7 Wall St. Mon Mar 9, 12:30 pm ET
Over the last few weeks, the newspaper industry has entered a new period of decline. The parent of the papers in Philadelphia declared bankruptcy as did the Journal Register chain. The Rocky Mountain News closed and the Seattle Post Intelligencer, owned by Hearst, will almost certainly close or only publish online. Hearst has said it will also close The San Francisco Chronicle if it cannot make massive cuts at the paper. The most recent rumor is that the company will fire half of the editorial staff. That action still may not be enough to make the property profitable.
24/7 Wall St. has created its list of the ten major daily papers that are most likely to fold or shut their print operations and only publish online. The properties were chosen based on the financial strength of their parent companies, the amount of direct competition that they face in their markets, and industry information on how much money they are losing. Based on this analysis, it is possible that eight of the fifty largest daily newspapers in the United States could cease publication in the next eighteen months. (Read: "The Race for a Better Read")
1. The Philadelphia Daily News. The smaller of the two papers owned by The Philadelphia Newspapers LLC, which recently filed for bankruptcy. The parent company says it will make money this year, but with newspaper advertising still falling sharply, the city cannot support two papers and the Daily News has a daily circulation of only about 100,000. The tabloid has a small staff, most of whom could probably stay on at Philly.com, the web operation for both of the city dailies.
2. The Minneapolis Star Tribune has filed for Chapter 11. The paper may not make money this year even without the costs of debt coverage. The company said it made $26 million last year, about half of what it made in 2007. The odds are that the Star Tribune will lose money this year if its ad revenue drops another 20%. There is no point for creditors to keep the paper open if it cannot generate cash. It could become an all-digital property, but supporting a daily circulation of over 300,000 is too much of a burden. It could survive if its rival the St. Paul Pioneer Press folds. A grim race.
3. The Miami Herald, which has a daily circulation of about 220,000. It is owned by McClatchy, a publicly traded company which could be the next chain to go into Chapter 11. The Herald has been on the market since December, and but no serious bidders have emerged. Newspaper advertising has been especially hard hit in Florida because of the tremendous loss in real estate advertising. The online version of the paper is already well-read in the Miami area and Latin America and the Caribbean. The Herald has strong competition north of it in Fort Lauderdale. There is a very small chance it could merge with the Sun-Sentinel, but it is more likely that the Herald will go online-only with two editions, one for English-speaking readers and one for Spanish.
4. The Detroit News is one of two daily papers in the big American city badly hit by the economic downturn. It is unlikely that it can merge with the larger Detroit Free Press which is owned by Gannett. It is hard to see what would be in it for Gannett. With the fortunes of Detroit getting worse each day, cutting back the number of days that the paper is delivered will not save enough money to keep the paper open.
5. The Boston Globe is, based on several accounts, losing $1 million a week. One investment bank recently said that the paper is only worth $20 million. The paper is the flagship of what the Globe's parent, The New York Times, calls the New England Media Group. NYT has substantial financial problems of its own. Last year, ad revenue for the New England properties was down 18%. That is likely to continue or get worse this year. Supporting larger losses at the Globe will become nearly impossible. Boston.com, the online site that includes the digital aspects of the Globe, will probably be all that will be left of the operation.
6. The San Francisco Chronicle. Parent company Hearst has already set a deadline for shutting the paper if it cannot make tremendous cost cuts. The Chronicle lost as much as $70 million last year. Even if the company could lower its costs, the northern California economy is in bad shape. The online version of the paper could be the only version by the middle of the 2009.
7. The Chicago Sun Times is the smaller of two newspapers in the city. Its parent company, Sun-Times Media Group trades for $.03 a share. Davidson Kempner, a large shareholder in the firm, has dumped the CEO and most of the board. The paper has no chance of competing with The Chicago Tribune.
8. NY Daily News is one of several large papers fighting for circulation and advertising in the New York City area. Unlike The New York Times, New York Post, Newsday, and Newark Star Ledger, the Daily News is not owned by a larger organization. Real estate billionaire Mort Zuckerman owns the paper. Based on figures from other big dailies it could easily lose $60 million or $70 million and has no chance of recovering from that level
9. The Fort Worth Star Telegram is another one of the big dailies that competes with a larger paper in a neighboring market - Dallas. The parent of The Dallas Morning News, Belo, is arguably a stronger company that the Star Telegram's parent, McClatchy. The Morning News has a circulation of about 350,000 and the Star Telegram has just over 200,000. The Star Telegram will have to shut down or become an edition of its rival. Putting them together would save tens of millions of dollars a year.
10. The Cleveland Plain Dealer is in one of the economically weakest markets in the country. Its parent, Advance Publications, has already threatened to close its paper in Newark. Employees gave up enough in terms of concessions to keep the paper open. Advance, owned by the Newhouse family, is carrying the burden of its paper plus Conde Nast, its magazine group which is losing advertising revenue. The Plain Dealer will be shut or go digital by the end of next year.
- Douglas A. McIntyre
Posted by raybond on :
Print Back to story
Ohio school gets 700 applicants for janitorial job Sat Mar 7, 10:19 am ET
MASSILON, Ohio – Evidence of the slumping economy is stacking up at an Ohio school which has nearly 700 applications for one open janitorial job.
Officials at Perry Local Schools near Canton in northeast Ohio say they've extended the deadline until Monday to accommodate the overwhelming response to the week-old posting.
The full-time position at Edison Junior High School pays $15 to $16 an hour plus benefits.
Superintendent John Richard says many applicants are laid-off workers with heart-wrenching stories about the tough economic times.
Forty-nine-year-old Donna Croston says she applied after losing jobs at two nearby factories that closed.
Croston says her chances of being hired amid the hundreds of applicants are slim, but she's hoping to get lucky.
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Posted by Propertymanager on :
It's going to get MUCH worse before it gets better.
Posted by jordanreed on :
very enlightening!!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:very enlightening!!
Thank you Jordan. I'm glad that you were able to learn something this morning.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: It's going to get MUCH worse before it gets better.
you have this way of stating the obvious like you are the Oracle at Delhi. (no that's not a misspelling )
we all know it's going to get worse. we alos know that you will continue to blame Obama even tho his programs have yet to begin.
why don't you go find a group of idiots that will worship you like you really want. oh, that's right Rush already has THEM Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:we all know it's going to get worse. we alos know that you will continue to blame Obama even tho his programs have yet to begin.
The market and the economy are looking at Obama's programs and voting with their dollars, which is the most accurate vote that exists. Obama's wreckless spending; socialist programs; cap and trade; tax increases are going to DESTROY the country. I'm not talking about a recession or even a 1929-1933 type depression, I'm talking about a collapse. That's what Obama is doing. The collapse hasn't happened yet precisely because Obama's programs have yet to begin. Give his programs a little time to work, and you'll get to experience the collapse first hand!
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:we all know it's going to get worse. we alos know that you will continue to blame Obama even tho his programs have yet to begin.
The market and the economy are looking at Obama's programs and voting with their dollars, which is the most accurate vote that exists. Obama's wreckless spending; socialist programs; cap and trade; tax increases are going to DESTROY the country. I'm not talking about a recession or even a 1929-1933 type depression, I'm talking about a collapse. That's what Obama is doing. The collapse hasn't happened yet precisely because Obama's programs have yet to begin. Give his programs a little time to work, and you'll get to experience the collapse first hand!
yawn... you really do know how to repeat the party line. one of rush's dittoheads.
i already proved to you that the crash of 29 followed the very same outline as we had the past decade.
it's hilarious that you are trying to blame this stuff on Obama. Bush did it. he did it on purpose. this is Bush's depression here buddy, own it, you voted for it.
i want you to look at states that are considered RED states and then Look at states that are considered blue states.
then i want you to add up their taxes...
you'll find the red states collect a lot less taxess...
vote with your ASSS, move to one.
the thing is? if you are poor and you move to a red one? you will most likely remain poor forever. it is garanteed.
if you are poor and move to a blue state? you have a fair chance of becoming wealthy and "Living the American Dream" if you work hard and make the sacrifices necessary...
you are preedicting the end of the nation. i heard the same crap from people like you when clinton got elected.. it didn't happrn till bush took office and really screwed stuff up.
Bush had to pander to ultra right freak show to get that last 6%.. you aren't the "base" of anything but the fire triangle.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:we all know it's going to get worse. we alos know that you will continue to blame Obama even tho his programs have yet to begin.
The market and the economy are looking at Obama's programs and voting with their dollars, which is the most accurate vote that exists. Obama's wreckless spending; socialist programs; cap and trade; tax increases are going to DESTROY the country. I'm not talking about a recession or even a 1929-1933 type depression, I'm talking about a collapse. That's what Obama is doing. The collapse hasn't happened yet precisely because Obama's programs have yet to begin. Give his programs a little time to work, and you'll get to experience the collapse first hand!
The collapse that happened last year apparently escaped your notice when you were so engrossed in passing out hate and bigotry toward everyone that doesn't meet your requirements of being socially intolerant and stinking rich. Possibly, had you been concentrating on reality instead of the remaking of America into your ideal political state (they achieved that in Germany in the 1930s and you got left out of that too), it would have rung a bell and you would have known, but probably, you would have missed it even then. Normally, one would expect even a pitiful mental retard to have known about the collapse, as everyone has been talking about it almost 24 hours a day since, but then, you clearly aren't up to the level of a pitiful mental retard.
Posted by glassman on :
Give his programs a little time to work, and you'll get to experience the collapse first hand!
here's the "fun" part..
we will see his programs work (or not) because there's only two ways they are not going to be implemented. the reason they will be implemented is because the GOP screwed ITSELF for the last ten years by taking everything they could grab. people got fed up.
as to the two ways Obamas plan will not be implemeted? they are both much worse than a severe depression. and if you are involved in bringing either of them about? you will not even get a trial. that i will predict.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:the reason they will be implemented is because the GOP screwed ITSELF for the last ten years by taking everything they could grab. people got fed up.
What did they grab? Nothing. The socialist Bush GAVE AWAY the farm with all his wreckless spending. That the GOP screwed itself is not in question. They moved far to the left and are being punished for their stupidity.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:the reason they will be implemented is because the GOP screwed ITSELF for the last ten years by taking everything they could grab. people got fed up.
What did they grab? Nothing. The socialist Bush GAVE AWAY the farm with all his wreckless spending. That the GOP screwed itself is not in question. They moved far to the left and are being punished for their stupidity.
you are agreeing with budgee, who is repeating what relentless has been saying for years.
Bush is not socialist, he's a fascist. He and Cheney diverted as much cash as they could to corporate America... they even did it under the guise of spreading our influence around the world.. that was Hitlers plan too.
socialism is the spreading of wealth amongst the PEOPLE, fascism is placing corporate interests above the good of the people...
a fascist beleives that what is good for business is good for the country...
a socialist believes that corporations should be owned by the government.
Posted by bdgee on :
"Bush GAVE AWAY the farm with all his wreckless spending."
Well, at least partially.
Now ain't you proud you were so smart as to have voted for him two times!!!!
Gosh, you are a genius at foretelling and planning for the future, ain'tcha......
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Actually, the overwhelming consensus of real live and concerned economist across the whole world is that at least one more and maybe a third stimulus package, both of at least the same size, will be required in order to have a chance at preventing massive starvations and huge numbers of diseased caused deaths. From what you say, it sounds like Pelosi is paying attention to those that study the situation and are being responsible.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:...lwill be required in order to have a chance at preventing massive starvations and huge numbers of diseased caused deaths.
LOL! It would take months for most of the deadbeats in this country to starve to death. All they've done for years is eat, drink beer, smoke cigarettes, and watch their big screen tv's (courtesy of the American taxpayer)!
Posted by raybond on :
Best you join the fascist now pm and get it over with wether you know it or not you are one a post like you just made is plain stupid.
You primitive bicameral do you hear voices from the right side and think its the holy incarnate of Adolph
Posted by bdgee on :
I wonder if he is blue eyed and blond and might have been adopted after birth in Germany in the 40s?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:...lwill be required in order to have a chance at preventing massive starvations and huge numbers of diseased caused deaths.
LOL! It would take months for most of the deadbeats in this country to starve to death. All they've done for years is eat, drink beer, smoke cigarettes, and watch their big screen tv's (courtesy of the American taxpayer)!
you think this is funny?
you think it's a joke?
we all know you and limbugger are a joke, but the joke is one of those that nobody but the butt laughs about. it's one of those laughs you hear in creepy movies too.
i just finished setting the first third of my garden today.. i did all the weeding up front... this part of my garden will not have one weed in it and i used no weedkiller at all
and yes, i can afford groceries and my mortgage. i just don't trust the supply system anymore.
Posted by glassman on :
didn't citi report profits for Jan and Feb this year?
By David Mildenberg and Bryan Keogh
March 11 (Bloomberg) -- Citigroup Inc. and Bank of America Corp.’s bond prices are sliding on concern that owners of debt issued by U.S. financial firms will be forced to swallow losses if the industry needs another bailout.
U.S. bank debt has lost 7.6 percent and yields have jumped to record levels compared with benchmark rates in the past month, even after taxpayers committed more than $11.6 trillion to prop up financial firms. With shareholders almost wiped out at banks like Citigroup and lawmakers resisting more rescues, holders may be asked to swap bonds for new debt that offers reduced interest rates or lower face values, analysts said.
quote:you think this is funny?...you think it's a joke?
No, it's not funny that you lefties have turned millions of Americans into lazy deadbeats! However, yes, it is a joke. It's a joke on every hard-working American that pays to allow lazy people to sit home all day and watch their big screen tv!
quote:i just finished setting the first third of my garden today.. i did all the weeding up front... this part of my garden will not have one weed in it and i used no weedkiller at all
and yes, i can afford groceries and my mortgage. i just don't trust the supply system anymore.
That's VERY SMART! Being prepared for the impending collapse is very wise. I'm prepared also!
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
U.S. President Barack Obama and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner received failing grades for their efforts to revive the economy from participants in the latest Wall Street Journal forecasting survey.
economists' main criticism of the Obama team centered on delays in enacting key parts of plans to rescue banks. "They overpromised and underdelivered," said Stephen Stanley of RBS Greenwich Capital. "Secretary Geithner scheduled a big speech and came out with just a vague blueprint. The uncertainty is hanging over everyone's head."
quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: U.S. President Barack Obama and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner received failing grades for their efforts to revive the economy from participants in the latest Wall Street Journal forecasting survey.
economists' main criticism of the Obama team centered on delays in enacting key parts of plans to rescue banks. "They overpromised and underdelivered," said Stephen Stanley of RBS Greenwich Capital. "Secretary Geithner scheduled a big speech and came out with just a vague blueprint. The uncertainty is hanging over everyone's head."
which way do you want it cash? do you want bailouts? or don't you?
of course WSJ people are complaining... they wanted MORE money than they got. they want all the money they can get and they want it NOW...
the GOP on the other hand wanted no money given out or so they say in public anyway if they were in control? they'd be giving it out directly to the corps. with no strings attached like paulson did...
at least Obama has put some (very few) rules in place...
these same econonomists?
The economists, many of whom have been continually surprised by the depth of the downturn, also pushed back yet again their forecasts for when a recovery would begin
didn't even predict the crash...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
quote:didn't even predict the crash...
But they have called the bottom over and over and over again!
Posted by bdgee on :
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He meant to say that they men who counted all the beans and came up with the 3.2 trillion number didn't include "interest" on the loans we have taken to fund this war.![[Were Up]](graemlins/wereup.gif)
