This is topic The Bullies and the Bullied in forum Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk at Allstocks.com's Bulletin Board.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.allstocks.com/stockmessageboard/ubb/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/14/t/003271.html

Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
Now, before I share my thoughts, I want to make a one thing clear:

I DO NOT, IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM CONDONE THE ACTS COMMITTED BY SCHOOL SHOOTERS.

With that out of the way, I would like to say a few things and I would also like to hear the thoughts of others regarding this topic.

Sadly, school shootings have almost become common place in this day and age. Everyone is asking, "How do we prevent another Columbine?", "How do we prevent another VA Tech?".
The answers range from stricter gun control laws to tougher standards and psychological evaluations for students.

Granted, these may be valid solutions. I am not here to argue that. I started this thread to talk about something else that can be done to possibly prevent these atrocities from happening again, and it requires nothing but changing how you treat others.

One thing I have noticed regarding school shootings, is that they all seem to have one thing in common. The Bullies and the Bullied.
Most incidents are the acts of those who are picked on getting revenge against those who picked on them, and possibly those who stood by and did nothing while these acts were committed.

Probably most of us at some point in our experiences at school have either been a victim of a bully or been a bully ourselves. If you are one of the few who haven't, then you probably knew, or know someone who fits one of those two categories.

As someone who was bullied and teased constantly from middle school until high school because I was skinny... I can personally attest to the extreme psychological trauma and life changing effects of being constantly bullied, day in and day out.

It has been a long time since I have been in school but I still remember the way it felt, as though it had happened yesterday.

The embarrassment. Being singled out and made fun of for something you had little to no control over.

The sadness. Wondering why people disliked you so much for something that meant nothing of who you are as a human being.

The hopelessness. Feeling like the whole world was against you and you had no one to turn to, like there was nothing left in this life for you.

Then the anger. The thirst for revenge, the desire to punish those whom you did nothing to that have made you feel this way, and those who stood idly by and watched.

Through the help of family, a close friend, and a couple others who stepped in at times when I was being bullied, I was able to cope with being bullied, and eventually moved beyond letting a bullies actions make me feel less than human. I was able to continue my life and not worry about what those who were shallow thought and said, and focus on my life and those around me whom I cared about, and that cared about me.

However, different people deal with the stresses of being bullied in different ways, and unfortunately, some make the horrible decision to not deal with it by killing themselves and or others, as we have seen with the horrible atrocities at Columbine and VA Tech.

Again, I am not trying justify these murderous actions. No matter how you are bullied, it does not justify the taking of the lives of others. I am living proof of how the actions of bullies can be overcome without resorting to revenge.

What I am trying to say is that there is something very simple that I think many can do that could help prevent the horrible atrocities that are occurring at our nations schools.

If you are a bully... Think twice before you bully. Not only are you hurting someone in a way that can scar them for life, you could be hurting someone who is not strong enough spiritually or psychologically to deal with it, and will lash out in a way that could cost lives.

If you are one of the bullied... Think twice before you act on your emotions. Don't stoop to the bullies level. Revenge is not the solution. Don't give up on yourself. Your life is worthwhile, and suicide is not the answer. Popularity is overrated. Don't care what the shallow masses think, you don't want friends like that anyway, they are not truely your friends. You will find those who care about you for who you are. It might be hard and take some time, but it will be worth it. Live, and let no-one take away the joy of living from you.

If you are neither of the above but know someone who is, or even just have witness someone being bullied... Step in, speak up, say something. Sometimes the difference between a life saved and a life lost can be as simple as being the one voice who speaks up in someone else's darkest hour.

NR.
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
NR you manifesto doesnt hold water

It was learned that the Columbine shooters were not bullied at all...one of them were actually concidered pretty popular

In the case of VT, The clown wasnt "teased" or "picked on" at all either. He just chose to isolate himself for whatever underlying reason and he suffered from serious delusions of paranoia....did you here his rants? If anything this kid might have been tramatized by something that happened at home, leaving him to trust NOBODY...the last part was JMO

Maybe thats one of the reasons why his parents went into hiding
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
Va. Tech shooter was laughed at

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Read the article he isolated himself to a point where people never heard him speak...granted some idiots took it upon themselves to poke fun at him when they finally did hear him but, look at it this way...he coulda took the "sane" route and learned how to assert himself in other ways. He chose the wrong path. Being bullied is part of life at some point everybody experiences it. Wheter its at a job or on a line...whatever. This kid probably had no coping skills and would have later in life shot up an office building for being repermanded or having a prank played on him.....

And what about the columbine guys??? they werent picked on or bullied AT ALL. As it turned out they were both very upset after being arrested for vandalizing a car months prior..which they think might have been their break point ..should the cop have hugged them before taking them in?
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
i think we should add prozac to all drinking water,then everybody would be happy [Razz]
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
The Foot was bullied in middle school.

(sorry for the munchie third person reference...he ruined that for me)

Anyway, the only relief I got was when the one kid who was lower on the totem pole than me (the guy with the weird poofy hair) was around.

All stemmed from one bully but rumors were he had a knife and would pull it out anytime he was losing a fight...so I never pushed it and lived with the humiliation.

It does mess with your head. It took me til my senior year before I realised I was bigger than those I was taking crap from and put my foot down.

Still, that's school man. In that testosterone environment there will always be a pecking order and those on the bottom are gonna have to find ways to cope. I like to think I am a better man because of it.

Be good to each other is great and a stong lesson hopefully to be followed (especially in your adult life) but I don't think we'll ever break the bully thing out of schools. Too instinctual.
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
You know what NR...I cant imagine what you went through...I was neither well let me rephrase that, my older brother abused the piss out of me growning up...I guess I have thick skin cause my other brother didnt take it so well. Actually I guess it wasnt so bad either because my friends were subject to the same beatings if we came accross the older guys. It was more of a "toughen up" class then anything. There was this one game they played called "poison ball" and if you seen one of them with baseball...RUN!! My friends eventually stopped ringing my bell for fear of getting a pot of water thrown on them from the second floor or shot at with a bebe gun....all and all nobody held any ill will towards my brother and his friends...at least I think so

Funny thing..one of my friends did go on to be an awesome pitcher in college...maybe he was looking to get a rematch going at some POISON-BALL
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I have to disagree, most strongly.

"It was learned that the Columbine shooters were not bullied at all...one of them were actually concidered pretty popular"

According to the infoprmation I have been able to find, that contains two false claims.

http://www.jaacap.com/pt/re/jaacap/abstract.00004583-200106000-00018.htm;jsessio nid=GnGSv2pw9p9G8JhvpxFhGd6pDs9g0vWGY8KvZNCpn2FjScBJTbnk!3145886!-949856145!8091 !-1

Only a cursory look into the scholarly literature will show that the correspondence of mass murderers with having been bullied is more that a mild relationship. It happens way more than half the time.

And then there are the issues that escape being lumped in the category of "bullying" but actually amount to the same thing, like never being allowed to play in the recess soft ball game or always being the butt of jokes because your clothes are hand me downs or whatever else kids will do to make themselves look good at the expense of others (and too often their parents and teachers approve of). Those cause phychological alterations too.

Any measure of whether of not someone feels bullied (and therefore develops a psychological abnormality) is NOT valid if that measure is from the viewpoint of the bully or even from a disinterested but predetermined view.

I'm sorry that NR had to suffer the "shame" of being not of standard issued and design from his peers because he was a skinny kid. I wonder if he had an ignorant but well meaning teacher suggest in front of the class that he should go and get checked for a tape worm, (with the added embarrassing "understanding" that, if your parents can't afford a regular doctor they can take you to the County Healt Department to get it done)? I Had that happen and I remember how deeply it hurt and how it hurt so much more and so long after because it supported all the insults and crap I had to put up with from my class mates. (But, what can a 6 foot tall 112 pound growing boy in the 6th grade expect from a product of a teachers college? Respect?)

I loudly second NR's motion!
 
Posted by Upside on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
...and put my foot down.

The Big one?
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Anybody in school that did get bullied ended up doing steroids....bullied no more.....
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:


.....

I'm sorry that NR had to suffer the "shame" of being not of standard issued and design from his peers because he was a skinny kid. I wonder if he had an ignorant but well meaning teacher suggest in front of the class that he should go and get checked for a tape worm, (with the added embarrassing "understanding" that, if your parents can't afford a regular doctor they can take you to the County Health Department to get it done)? I Had that happen and I remember how deeply it hurt and how it hurt so much more and so long after because it supported all the insults and crap I had to put up with from my class mates. (But, what can a 6 foot tall 112 pound growing boy in the 6th grade expect from a product of a teachers college? Respect?)

.....


LOL, that happened to you too!?!

...Kinda ironic how I can laugh about it now, considering how I felt when it happened....

Maybe we had the same teacher? Either that or schools instruct their teachers to recommend that all skinny kids get checked for tape worms.
 
Posted by Ramius on :
 
Hey Natural...

I mostly agree with you and I too had hard time of it when I was in school.

I was 18 when I graduated from high school, was 4'11'' tall and weighed 98 pounds(yes, I'm a guy). I hated high school. I lived in a "rich" area, but my family wasn't rich at all. The other kids were the have's, and I was a have not...a little runt of one too.

But you're right, people handle things differently, some people just aren't strong enough, or don't have a support system.

I learned a lot of hard lessons that just made me work harder. I haven't finished college, and work mostly with people with masters degrees. Now I'm 5'10" and in shape 150lbs. At my 10 year reunion only 1 person recognized me.
 
Posted by jordanreed on :
 
i was bullied..so i told my older brother..who was in the rice street gang.(bpm'.)...bullied no more..after that i was repected...

But i have to say,my brother also kicked the sh!t out of me every day..

he was the bully..

what did i learn??..to always let people know who my brother is..he's saved my butt more than once
 
Posted by jordanreed on :
 
[Cool]
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
It is not just restricted to schools and growing up. It happens every day in the workplace, just not physical in nature.
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Youre right Jord thinkin back now I always got a pass where my friends werent so lucky.....
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:


.....

I'm sorry that NR had to suffer the "shame" of being not of standard issued and design from his peers because he was a skinny kid. I wonder if he had an ignorant but well meaning teacher suggest in front of the class that he should go and get checked for a tape worm, (with the added embarrassing "understanding" that, if your parents can't afford a regular doctor they can take you to the County Health Department to get it done)? I Had that happen and I remember how deeply it hurt and how it hurt so much more and so long after because it supported all the insults and crap I had to put up with from my class mates. (But, what can a 6 foot tall 112 pound growing boy in the 6th grade expect from a product of a teachers college? Respect?)

.....


LOL, that happened to you too!?!

...Kinda ironic how I can laugh about it now, considering how I felt when it happened....

Maybe we had the same teacher? Either that or schools instruct their teachers to recommend that all skinny kids get checked for tape worms.

Even today, the urging to perform such an act in elementary classrooms is a standard part of the elementary education curriculum in colleges.

It is there in their text books, just like the explanaion that the "purpose" of mathematics is to keep the students busy and quiet when the teacher has "important" work to do and as a means of punisment for kids that don't sit quietly like good little girls.

I once agreed to substitute over a couple of weeks for a collegue who had to be out of town in a graduate class of mathematics for elementary school teachers and scoffed when they told me those two. The next day they brough three standard text books for education classes in which both were set out with emphisis.
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
Bdgee,

quote:

"And then there are the issues that escape being lumped in the category of "bullying" but actually amount to the same thing, like never being allowed to play in the recess soft ball game or always being the butt of jokes because your clothes are hand me downs or whatever else kids will do to make themselves look good at the expense of others (and too often their parents and teachers approve of). Those cause phychological alterations too."

Thank you for mentioning that. IMO these types of things are an integral part of being "bullied" that I neglected to make clear in my original post. Being bullied for me was hardly ever being physically abused by classmates, though that did happen from time to time.

-----

Ramius,

quote:
But you're right, people handle things differently, some people just aren't strong enough, or don't have a support system.
I was trying to get that point across, but I think you phrased it in a much better way than I did. I was fortunate enough to a "support system" to help me through the rough times. They are many who do not. IMO, those who do, become stronger individuals. Those who do not are more likely to fold under pressure. Sometimes, one person can be that "support system" for someone who has no one, which can make a world of difference, which is why I felt I needed to post my thoughts on this issue.

-----

Jordan,

You were lucky to have an older brother. Me? I was the older brother....
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
thinking about it...i did give some of the teachers a hard time... usually through dry jokes and just basically being a clown

Hey bd maybee this explains our love for one another?
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Anything that, intentionally or not, tends to humiliate a youngster is a thing that should be avoided....period!

Everyone has some trait that can add to the world, but if a person has been trained to be careful or get laughed at, it can't help him or us because he can't let it out.
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
quote:
Even today, the urging to perform such an act in elementary classrooms is a standard part of the elementary education curriculum in colleges.

It is there in their text books, just like the explanaion that the "purpose" of mathematics is to keep the students busy and quiet when the teacher has "important" work to do and as a means of punisment for kids that don't sit quietly like good little girls.

I once agreed to substitute over a couple of weeks for a collegue who had to be out of town in a graduate class of mathematics for elementary school teachers and scoffed when they told me those two. The next day they brough three standard text books for education classes in which both were set out with emphisis.

Well maybe they need to add a line instructing the teachers to do so discretely, instead of in front of the entire class....
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
this problem has been around as long as we have had classrooms:

Pink Floyd
Another Brick In The Wall

Daddy's home cross the Ocean.
Leaving just a memory.
The snapshot in the Family album.
Daddy what else did you leave for me?
Damn It! What did you leave behind for me?
All in all it was just a brick in the wall.
All in all it was all just bricks in the wall.

We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teacher leave the kids alone.
Hey, teacher leave the kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teachers leave those kids alone.

Hey, Teacher leave those kids alone!
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

crowd noise

I don't need no arms around me.
And I don't need no drugs to calm me.
I have seen the writing on the wall.
Don't think I'll need anything at all.
No, don't think I'll need anything at all.
All in all it was just bricks in the wall.
All in all it was just bricks in the wall.


from the Wall written by Roger Waters.
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Upside:
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
...and put my foot down.

The Big one?
LOL

I knew someone would go there.
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
I have that album Glass. Thanks for posting the lyrics, that song is one of my favorites by Floyd, along with their song "Time".

I agree with Bigfoot's earlier comments. I'm not saying that the problem of bullies in the classroom will ever go away, nor trying to suggest that treating others better will guarantee a stop to school shootings.

I just know from personal experience what being bullied can do to you, and in light of recent events, thought that maybe sharing my thoughts and feelings on the issue might make a difference to someone somewhere.

Sometimes just knowing that you are not the only one that is going through, or has been through rough times can be enough to pull you back from the "edge".

Also, not to be forgotten,

Sometimes it takes tragedy before you realize the negative effect you've had on someone else by your actions, or lack there of....

The second of the two is something I hope that no one ever has to experience.
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
Quote Natural Resources;

I was trying to get that point across, but I think you phrased it in a much better way than I did. I was fortunate enough to a "support system" to help me through the rough times. They are many who do not. IMO, those who do, become stronger individuals. Those who do not are more likely to fold under pressure. Sometimes, one person can be that "support system" for someone who has no one, which can make a world of difference, which is why I felt I needed to post my thoughts on this issue.
_________________________________________________

I feel bad that so many kids were constantly bullied as they grew up, after just reading a few of these posts it can be tramatic. I never experianced anything like this, maybe because of having an older brother and sister and i knew older friends that would not tolerate much of this. Maybe NaturalResources answered a question in his statement that i had always wondered about. About 8 years after high school, i ran into a fellow classmate in a bar, we were talking and out of the blue he said, i want to thank you for always being so nice to my younger brother, i took that as a big compliment, but never really understood why it might have been a big thing, i had no reason not to be nice to him. I had never thought of it till now, maybe many kids were not nice to him. I just learned growing up that being a bully was not the right thing to do and if friends of mine or me saw a extreme of this, we would step between it, especially if we knew for sure it was one sided.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
i went to a quasi-military school for high school...

the hazing was (more or less) instittutionalised, merciless, and perpetual...

i can only say that i fought back on the spot every time no matter how bad the odds were, or how much more punishment i took for fighting back... soon? they looked for easier "prey"... i can't say i defended many of the others cuz i wasn't big enough..but i did object... and i never "passed it on" to the youngsters coming behind me... as a a matter of fact? i am proud to say that MY graduating class didn't haze at all (that i know of)

that's all we can do...
 
Posted by IMAKEMONEY on :
 
THATS ALL YOU GOT TO DO, GIVE IT RIGHT BACK AND THEY LEAVE YOU ALONE!glassman
Member


posted April 19, 2007 05:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i went to a quasi-military school for high school...

the hazing was (more or less) instittutionalised, merciless, and perpetual...

i can only say that i fought back on the spot every time no matter how bad the odds were, or how much more punishment i took for fighting back... soon? they looked for easier "prey"... i can't say i defended many of the others cuz i wasn't big enough..but i did object... and i never "passed it on" to the youngsters coming behind me... as a a matter of fact? i am proud to say that MY graduating class didn't haze at all (that i know of)

that's all we can do...

--------------------
beware of idjits posing as politicians

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 21135 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged |
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
THATS ALL GLASS!! When I was on the HS football team they bumped me up to varsity for the playoffs and they tryed to haze us few as well...at practice we ran a dummy O (2nd offense) against the starting D. The size disparity was a joke besides the fact they knew what plays we were running. I was only 5'6" 150lbs then. I ran my ass off every play if they called my number up the middle I just lowered my head and ran right into the wall which consisted of 270 lbs of "moose" he was an all city nose tackle. When all was said and done I had a bloody mess for a head....but later in the locker room moose came over to me laughed and shook my hand and told me "you got alotta heart".
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
ya, my class was the first to be freshmen in high school, instead of the kingpins at junior high...was pretty bad at first, but we kinda banded together with the sophs, who after all were also in *their* first year at high school. After enough seniors got the stuffin' knocked out of 'em, that chit ended...

Fun times, ending those "traditions"...
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Antother time one of the other all-stars tryed to embarress my friend during a tackling drill. Funny part... he was our friend as well..OFF THE FIELD LOL.

Well when it was my turn...soon as he caught the ball I burried my head right in his chest and put him back on earth..

Its all coming back to me now. There were certain types that were only DlCKS around certain people....
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rimasco:
Antother time one of the other all-stars tryed to embarress my friend during a tackling drill. Funny part... he was our friend as well..OFF THE FIELD LOL.

Well when it was my turn...soon as he caught the ball I burried my head right in his chest and put him back on earth..

Its all coming back to me now. There were certain types that were only DlCKS around certain people....

lol, don't get me started...start thinking about that stuff, and the floodgates open...
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
Greetings To All:

The Munchkin Man was bullied when he was a little Munchkin Boy and later on when he was a Munchkin Teen.

Later on the Munchkin Man got his revenge.

The Munchkin Man became a math teacher and became the hardest teacher in the school.

The Munchkin Man was the only teacher in his entire school who would refuse to pass a student whose final average was only 1 point away from passing.

The Munchkin Man used to love to take out his little red pen and mark things wrong with big red Xs.

One day a kid came to the Munchkin Man with a transfer sheet for another school.

The Munchkin Man was supposed to figure out his average and write it in on the sheet.

The Munchkin Man figured out his average.

It was a 1.

Only a 1.

Later that day, the guidance counselor tried to talk the Munchkin Man into giving him a 50 in order to give the kid a fighting chance to pass in his new school.

The Munchkin Man refused.

The 1 remained.

The Munchkin Man never gave partial credit.

None.

Either the answer was completely right or completely wrong.

You also had to show each and every single step in order to qualify for getting an answer completely right.

If your answer was supposed to have a dollar sign and you forgot it, the Munchkin Man would mark the answer completely wrong.

The Munchkin Man also took off points for sloppiness and failure to follow directions.

The Munchkin Man would take off a point if your equal signs were crooked.

The Munchkin Man would also take off points if your paper wasn't headed exactly right.

The types of kids who used to pick on the Munchkin Man were usually the types of kids who flunked.

That's how the Munchkin Man got them back.

But................

As hard as the Munchkin Man used to be........

The Munchkin Man was always fair.

This is how the Munchkin Man rechanneled all of his negative feelings from being bullied into a positive direction.

Good luck to all.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
wow, sounds like you needed some  -

i bet you got asked to leave that job dintcha MM?

you are lucky you didn't get sued...

it was probably in a poor neighborhood where people can't afford lawyers huh?
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i bet you got asked to leave that job dintcha MM?

you are lucky you didn't get sued...

it was probably in a poor neighborhood where people can't afford lawyers huh?

_____

The Munchkin Man had tenure.

You couldn't just ask the Munchkin Man to leave just because you didn't like the Munchkin Man.

The Munchkin Man got sued once.

The Munchkin Man got a good attorney and got the suit dismissed.

On the negative side, the Munchkin Man's car did get vandalized a few times.

The Munchkin Man finally retired on disability when his late onset of Third Person Communicative Disorder (TPCD) started to kick in.

The Munchkin Man also had OCD.

That stands for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

This may also help explain why the Munchkin Man was regarded as so "picky."

The Munchkin Man was also diagnosed with Type II Bipolar Disorder.

These extra diagnoses helped the Munchkin Man to get his disability claim approved because his TPCD was so relatively unknown at the time.

And it still is.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
munchie...

no chit, that explains alot...

you don't "get tough" that way. On the street, you don't let bullies succeed. But with kids, as an adult? You wanna find ways to encourage success. Am I saying give football players an "A" when they deserve an "F"? No way... But the modus operandi you describe is too harsh, imo
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
well put Tex...

munch, did you catch the part where i said how i fought back no matter how much more i got hurt?
and then? i refused to "pay it forward"?

BTW? i think xlax is the best thing for OCD... [Big Grin]

the bipolar stuff is good if you can figger out how to lose the blues? you get to be manic all the time...

this TPCD is awesome stuff.. you could probably make a killing writing a TV show....
most of 'em are crap anyway so you don't even need to be very creative, just use the TPCD angle...
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i bet you got asked to leave that job dintcha MM?

you are lucky you didn't get sued...

it was probably in a poor neighborhood where people can't afford lawyers huh?

_____

The Munchkin Man had tenure.

You couldn't just ask the Munchkin Man to leave just because you didn't like the Munchkin Man.

The Munchkin Man got sued once.

The Munchkin Man got a good attorney and got the suit dismissed.

On the negative side, the Munchkin Man's car did get vandalized a few times.

The Munchkin Man finally retired on disability when his late onset of Third Person Communicative Disorder (TPCD) started to kick in.

The Munchkin Man also had OCD.

That stands for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

This may also help explain why the Munchkin Man was regarded as so "picky."

The Munchkin Man was also diagnosed with Type II Bipolar Disorder.

These extra diagnoses helped the Munchkin Man to get his disability claim approved because his TPCD was so relatively unknown at the time.

And it still is.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

lol, I still can't believe the "third-person" thingee, but clearly the Munchie has no known role as a teacher/helper of children. lol, I was "tough" in my youth-program, but I also recognized sometimes it's simply best to go eat pizza together...
 
Posted by IamtheWalrus on :
 
IMO,

most of these kids weren't properly disciplined when they were children. What ever happened to a swift spanking, or the switch?
I went to various schools around the world growing up. In Australia, 90% of the kids went to private schools whether they were poor or not...and they were militarily based...that meant we trained a couple of days out of the week after the 6th grade for the military in case of a war. (There is no draft there)Most of the time, thge disciplinarian of the school was the leader of our teen units, and they weer strict. The cane was a good tool for straightening us up from bad tidings amonst our peers.
Again IMO, our education system should consider copying Australia's example.
Maybe that is why crime isn't so bad there, and never has been, even if it was founded by crooks in the first place.
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
MOST of these kids were not read to...

What happened here in America was kids quit being read to, and then got beat hard enough (corporal punishment) that parents freaked out...

but not so freaked out as to resume control...then schools lost control.

Schools need parents. Kids need parents who tuck 'em in and tell stories or sing songs or read to 'em.
 
Posted by IamtheWalrus on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
MOST of these kids were not read to...

What happened here in America was kids quit being read to, and then got beat hard enough (corporal punishment) that parents freaked out...

but not so freaked out as to resume control...then schools lost control.

Schools need parents. Kids need parents who tuck 'em in and tell stories or sing songs or read to 'em.

You are very correct Tex
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I've sort of known all along that I couldn't approve on you MM. Something deeper than the childish third person writing that displays absolutely no talent for wtiting, but does display an inability to communicate in writing.

So far as mathematics is concerned, I will take you at your word, herein, and believe you acted exactly as you say.

I've been having to correct the horrible things you've done to young minds for a lifetime and you have the gall to think it makes you a man. It makes you a sick arrogant failure. A good teacher doesn't often have to give low grades, because he teaches so well the students learn well. When it is necessary, from time to time, to give a low grade, a good teacher knows it is his failure, not the student's.

Quoting R.L. Moore, known as the greatest teacher of mathematics that ever lived, "One teaches because it is his calling, one does mathematics because one can't not do mathematics". I suspect you can't do mathematics, but it is bluntly clear that you were not called to teach it.

What say I sit your ignorant butt down and teach you some real mathematics? I don't think you have a hope in hell of even guessing what the subject is unless you apply yourself 100% for a few months and then you'll still have many miles to go before comprehension takes hold, if it ever does. I won't need to grade you, because I can assure you and anyone else that you don't have the knack for or the devotion that it takes to do real mathematics. You'll quit rather than prove you can't. I can tell that from your disgusting assault of students with the most magnificient of all the arts in order to pump up your ego.

How dare you to use mathematics to bully students?

How many young minds did you sour on mathematics?

How many young minds did you sour on education?

Teaching is a privilege that you have abused.
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
Quote Tex:

Schools need parents. Kids need parents who tuck 'em in and tell stories or sing songs or read to 'em.
_________________________________________________

Unfortunately there is less and less of that these day's with two parents working, seems like many do not seem to find enough time to spend with their kids. Do you coach anymore?
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
Quote Tex:

Schools need parents. Kids need parents who tuck 'em in and tell stories or sing songs or read to 'em.
_________________________________________________

Unfortunately there is less and less of that these day's with two parents working, seems like many do not seem to find enough time to spend with their kids. Do you coach anymore?

no, last team I coached was coupla years ago: some of the older guys wanted to play adult league. We won our division, but to be truthful, the league placed us in the lowest division. Not a good idea, given our history.

To do that again, I'd prolly work with Under-12, *maybe* Under-10...at this point, I think that's "something I did."

was very rewarding, though...more than I ever could have imagined. We stifled gang recruitment and kept some good kids in class
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
That's about the last time i did that Boy's and Girls club baseball team. I was suppose to just help out from time to time, but as what happens quite often for those teams as you know, every one bails and parents did not have the time, so it became full time for me. Like you i like working with the kids, but did not want the full time job.
I have a grandson starting soccer next year and my daughter already has me signed up as the coach. If you do not offer to coach, you are not guaranteed a spot on the team. Were talking about 4-5 year olds, we need about 10 coaches to keep their attention. I am not much into coaching soccer, but have done it about 4 years when my kids were growing up. This age group is fun, but in a different way, but like you know each has it's plus, i prefer the 8-15 year old range. Since my grandson is on the team we will have a great time as we always do. I know he is looking foward to it and the treats afterward, not sure what order at this point.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
I've been having to correct the horrible things you've done to young minds for a lifetime and you have the gall to think it makes you a man.

_____

How exactly have you been spending a "lifetime" correcting what you claim the Munchkin Man has done to the "young minds" you have described?

The Munchkin Man doesn't understand your statement.

Please explain and elaborate for the Munchkin Man.

Thanks in advance.
______________________

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
A good teacher doesn't often have to give low grades, because he teaches so well the students learn well. When it is necessary, from time to time, to give a low grade, a good teacher knows it is his failure, not the student's.

_____

The Munchkin Man disagrees with you on all of the above.

A good teacher gives a low grade whenever it is deserved and every single time it is deserved without exceptions.

It is the teacher's responsibility to teach.

It is the student's responsibility to learn.

All students are responsible for their own learning.

As the old saying goes:

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

There are good teachers and there are bad teachers.

The Munchkin Man was a good teacher.

It is the student's responsibility to learn, whether he or she has a good teacher or a bad teacher.

The student's task is to learn in spite of the teacher if, indeed, the teacher is a bad teacher.

Every time the Munchkin Man failed a student, it was not the Munchkin Man who failed.

It was the student who failed.

It's that simple.
_________________________

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee: Quoting R.L. Moore, known as the greatest teacher of mathematics that ever lived, "One teaches because it is his calling, one does mathematics because one can't not do mathematics".
_____

The greatest teacher of mathematics who ever lived?

The Munchkin Man never even heard of him.

The Munchkin Man just looked him up on Wikipedia.

No wonder the Munchkin Man had never heard of him.

He was a "constructivist"

The Munchkin Man is a "traditionalist."

The Munchkin Man believes in direct instruction.

The Munchkin Man believes in teacher-led instruction instead of student-centered instruction.

The Munchkin Man was a "sage on the stage" instead of a "guide by the side."

Have you ever heard of "The Math Wars?"

Check out this link and learn something:

http://www.ios.org/showcontent.aspx?ct=245&h=53

Here is the Munchkin Man's favorite mathematics teaching web site:

http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/

This is the side of "The Math Wars" that the Munchkin Man is on.

They think like the Munchkin Man does.

They also tend to vote Republican.

Now here is a link to the "enemy" side:

http://www.mathematicallysane.com/home.asp

These people think like you and your hero R.L. Moore do.

They also tend to vote Democrat.

The bottom line is that you and the Munchkin Man come from two entirely different philosophical camps.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee: What say I sit your ignorant butt down and teach you some real mathematics? I don't think you have a hope in hell of even guessing what the subject is unless you apply yourself 100% for a few months and then you'll still have many miles to go before comprehension takes hold, if it ever does. I won't need to grade you, because I can assure you and anyone else that you don't have the knack for or the devotion that it takes to do real mathematics. You'll quit rather than prove you can't.
_____

Listen to yourself!

You are offering to teach the Munchkin Man a math course.

Yet, you are forecasting the Munchkin Man's failure even before he starts.

What do you think this does to the Munchkin Man's self-esteem?

The Munchkin Man is shocked that you would teach one of your students with such a prejudical attitude.

Is the type of teaching style which you embrace?

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
When one accepts the responsibilities of teaching the youth of a society, one, in that same act, cedes to the culture any right or privilege to perform the duties inherent to that position with even a hint of personal goal other than the honor of imparting to young minds the necessary information they will need in that subject matter for successful adulthood and building in their minds and egos the confidence that they can, based on the foundation they get in school, use, and expand on the use of, the subject in their life.

One DOes NOT have the right or privilege to use the authority of the position as a show of power to enhance his own short commings, real or imaginary.


The profession of teaching is one of responsibility and duty, resulting in long after the fact infinite pride in the successes of the students (with often little or no recognition of the influence of the teacher) one has had the privilege to influencing. For a teacher that prides himself on having been "hard" on the students, that is an impossible result, as that fact rather than the subject matter, by necessity, becomes the only practical goal of the student. The job is NOT to make it difficult, but to make it easy and pleasurable and a tool worthy of keeping for use through a lifetime.

(That was in your beloved 3rd person, in order to possibly, not probably, tweak your obviously dormant or dead sense of responsibility. I doubt it there really is anough there to tweak.)

What you describe doing dishonors those in an honorable profession, not only those in it that teach mathematics, but all of them.

If you were capable of understanding you wouldn't be capable of using a the teaching of mathematics as a device to pump your own ego and could not, even in jest, brag about having done so. So' I'll offer no explanation to the Munchkin Man. You have earned the disgust of any and every worthwhile teacher everywhere for all time.

I'll put it in terms you claim to understand and you brag that you expected your students to understand and accept without recourse or explanation:

You flunked.

You flunked as a teacher.

You flunked as a teacher of mathematics.

You flunked as a responsible adult.

You flunked as a decent human being.

NO RE-EXAMS AND NO RE-EVALUATION OF THE GRADE.
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Sorry. Was a double post. I don't know how or why, but I deleted the text of this one.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
munch, did you catch the part where i said how i fought back no matter how much more i got hurt?

_____

Yes, indeed.

Unfortunately, that is an important lesson in childhood the Munchkin Man never learned.

When a bully used to threaten to "kill" the Munchkin Man, the Munchkin Man really used to believe he would get killed.

When a bully used to threaten to "break every bone" in the Munchkin Man's body, the Munchkin Man really used to believe that all of his bones would get broken and stay broken for life.

When a bully used to threaten to put the Munchkin Man "in the hospital", the Munchkin Man really used to believe that he would be going to the hospital and stay there for the rest of his life.

As a result, the Munchkin Man was always afraid to fight back.

Yet, the Munchkin Man would have probably become a teacher anyway.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
this TPCD is awesome stuff.. you could probably make a killing writing a TV show....
most of 'em are crap anyway so you don't even need to be very creative, just use the TPCD angle...

_____

You have a good point there, Glassman.

The Munchkin Man has already gotten his "revenge."

Now it is time for the Munchkin Man to move on and use his God given creative writing talents to good use.

Thank you very much for the inspiration.

Good luck to you.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
When one accepts the responsibilities of teaching the youth of a society, one, in that same act, cedes to the culture any right or privilege to perform the duties inherent to that position with even a hint of personal goal other than the honor of imparting to young minds the necessary information they will need in that subject matter for successful adulthood and building in their minds and egos the confidence that they can, based on the foundation they get in school, use, and expand on the use of, the subject in their life.

One DOes NOT have the right or privilege to use the authority of the position as a show of power to enhance his own short commings, real or imaginary.


The profession of teaching is one of responsibility and duty, resulting in long after the fact infinite pride in the successes of the students (with often little or no recognition of the influence of the teacher) one has had the privilege to influencing. For a teacher that prides himself on having been "hard" on the students, that is an impossible result, as that fact rather than the subject matter, by necessity, becomes the only practical goal of the student. The job is NOT to make it difficult, but to make it easy and pleasurable and a tool worthy of keeping for use through a lifetime.

(That was in your beloved 3rd person, in order to possibly, not probably, tweak your obviously dormant or dead sense of responsibility. I doubt it there really is anough there to tweak.)

What you describe doing dishonors those in an honorable profession, not only those in it that teach mathematics, but all of them.

If you were capable of understanding you wouldn't be capable of using a the teaching of mathematics as a device to pump your own ego and could not, even in jest, brag about having done so. So' I'll offer no explanation to the Munchkin Man. You have earned the disgust of any and every worthwhile teacher everywhere for all time.

I'll put it in terms you claim to understand and you brag that you expected your students to understand and accept without recourse or explanation:

You flunked.

You flunked as a teacher.

You flunked as a teacher of mathematics.

You flunked as a responsible adult.

You flunked as a decent human being.

NO RE-EXAMS AND NO RE-EVALUATION OF THE GRADE.

_____

Gosh, Mr. Bdgee.

It sounds like you don't like the Munchkin Man.

That's too bad.

The Munchkin Man is a warm and compassionate and lovable little teddy bear.

The Munchkin Man hopes you calm down and feel better soon.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
this TPCD is awesome stuff.. you could probably make a killing writing a TV show....
most of 'em are crap anyway so you don't even need to be very creative, just use the TPCD angle...

_____

You have a good point there, Glassman.

The Munchkin Man has already gotten his "revenge."

Now it is time for the Munchkin Man to move on and use his God given creative writing talents to good use.

Thank you very much for the inspiration.

Good luck to you.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

best wishes to you too Munchie, and when you are rich and famous be sure to remember who inspired you [Wink]
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Does the Munchkin Man constantly refer to himself in the third as part of his OCD ritual?

Back in the day.....in the rare situation that I knew I was gonna have a teacher like MM...I wouldnt even bother giving them the satisfaction, I would throw in the towel early and just bust the teachers BALLS!!!!!!

Did you at least offer tutoring or extra for the struggling......persistence gotta count for something in any situtation....except when refering to yourself in the third.....

first person to get Munchie to break character gets 20 bucks....
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee: Quoting R.L. Moore, known as the greatest teacher of mathematics that ever lived, "One teaches because it is his calling, one does mathematics because one can't not do mathematics".
_____

The greatest teacher of mathematics who ever lived?

The Munchkin Man never even heard of him.


I accept your claim as a fact.

If you were either a half decent mathematician or a responsible teacher of mathematics, you would have heard of him. The logic: if A or B, then C, implies if not C, then not A or B.

Modern mathematics could not exists in its present state without the mathematics he did. Modern mathematics could not exists in its present state without the mathematics his students did. He and his students make up more than just a significant portion of all the officers and leaders of both the American Mathematical Society and the Mathematical Associationb of America, ever. His publications and the publications of his studentss make up more than just a significant portion of all the publications in mathematics in the 20th and the 21st centuries. The publications of his student's student's amount to even more.

http://www.discovery.utexas.edu/rlm/method.html

Ann Rand, to whom the site you propose as a teaching model is devoted, along with her extreme philosophical approach to philosophy (never mathematics or eaching) stopped being a significant force in intellectual pursuits about the same time as the demise of early 20th century fascisrt states. There is little doubt that Moore's contributions to mathematics and his teaching methods will survive long after the 21st century.

Mathematics is that way, you see. It lives on forever and ever, though its creators are long dead....Euclid, Weirstrasse, Euler, Whyburn, Decart, Gause, Zeno, Sierpinsky, Lagrange, Moore (both E.H and R.L), Bing, , Pascal, Fermat, F.B. Jones, Kantor, Hilbert, and on and on and on - - -.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Munchie, do you realise that when you gave all those bullies all those "fair" but harsh grades that they became frustrated and angry? Do you know who they took that anger out on? the kids that were just like you. when you go on to write all of your Tv shows? i hope you keep that in mind....
 
Posted by jordanreed on :
 
jordanreed thinks the carpet muncher is a lying bully in disguise
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I don't jordanreed. I believe the egotistical crackpot is telling the truth about his activities. He is a sicko truth telling bully.
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
MunchkinMan,

I want to share something with you.

Like Bigfoot commented earlier, there was a period of time during my schooling where I was not picked on. This was a time when we had a new student join our school. This new student, who was even less like the "norm" than I, suddenly became the new target of the bullies.

Unfortunately, I found myself liking the fact that this person was being bullied. At first, I simply said and did nothing, glad to no longer be the target of the bullying. But then, slowly, I joined in on the bullying and became a bully myself.

Even though I knew better, because I had all to recently been the bullied, I found that the same people who hated me before, now liked me. It felt good. It was my revenge, even though it was misplaced.

For months I mercilessly picked on this new student along with the rest of the bullies. I finally felt like I fit in.

This all changed when the new student cracked and attacked another student who was bullying them. Even though I was not involved in this particular incident, I know for a fact, through personal experience, that my constant bullying contributed to the culmination of this event.

As best as I understand it, (since I did not witness it), this student was only fighting back but several students, who were friends of the bullies that were involved, gave statements that the new student lashed out and attacked for no reason. As a result, the new student was expelled from our school and to my knowledge, ended up with criminal charges, as the student they attacked was severely injured.

Once the new student was gone, things returned to "normal" and I was once again the target. The same people who liked me days before, hated me again. I had now been on the other side though, and it changed how I saw things.

While my family and real friends helped me cope with the trauma of being bullied, it was this event that helped me understand why revenge is not the answer. It also helped me understand why some people are "part time" bullies, if you will.

To this day I regret my actions.

I do not know what became of the new student, nor whether or not they went on to have a normal life, but I do know, from my own experiences, that they probably never forgot me, or the rotten things I said and did to them. I know I haven't.

Many here, myself included, will say you are wrong in what you did to your students to get your "revenge"... But until you can realize this for yourself, our comments fall on deaf ears, and will mean little. It is up to you to come to this on your own, which, if you were bullied too, I am sure you will do at some point in your life.

Best of luck to you.

NR.
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
But yu can't do it in the 3rd person. It requires standing up for yourself and putting an end to blaming the rest of the world....reality, not skewed disclaimers.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
To Mr. Bdgee:

The Munchkin Man would like to revisit a question that the Munchkin Man asked you earlier.

It was a question that you failed to answer.

Here is that question:
________________

How exactly have you been spending a "lifetime" correcting what you claim the Munchkin Man has done to the "young minds" you have described?
_________________

Have you run into any of the Munchkin Man's former students?

That's what it sounds like if the Munchkin Man takes your claim literally.

Are you trying to say that you have spent a lifetime correcting what other teachers, who have a similar teaching style to that of the Munchkin Man, have done to young minds?

If so, then it sounds like you have run into a lot of students who were taught math in very much the same way that the Munchkin Man taught math.

Is the Munchkin Man on the right path?

If so, then it sounds like you have a deeply ingrained axe to grind against the Munchkin Man's personal teaching style, one which has been festering inside of you for a long time.

With such hostility, then how can you be truly objective about the Munchkin Man's style of teaching?

Think on these things.

Thanks in advance.

Very Sincerely,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:


That's about the last time i did that Boy's and Girls club baseball team. I was suppose to just help out from time to time, but as what happens quite often for those teams as you know, every one bails and parents did not have the time, so it became full time for me. Like you i like working with the kids, but did not want the full time job.
I have a grandson starting soccer next year and my daughter already has me signed up as the coach. If you do not offer to coach, you are not guaranteed a spot on the team. Were talking about 4-5 year olds, we need about 10 coaches to keep their attention. I am not much into coaching soccer, but have done it about 4 years when my kids were growing up. This age group is fun, but in a different way, but like you know each has it's plus, i prefer the 8-15 year old range. Since my grandson is on the team we will have a great time as we always do. I know he is looking foward to it and the treats afterward, not sure what order at this point.

"Full-time job": lol, and how!...there were times I coached as many as three teams, plus arranging coaches for the other teams. At one point, we had slightly more than a hundred kids. (lol, sorry if you've read this before [Smile] )I did all the PR and all the fund-raising. Could only work (for pay, I mean) part-time... But I wouldn't trade those years for anything I can think of...

"4-5 year-olds": yikes, I don't think I could do that again... As you mention, the best age for really learning is sometime 8-12 in my experience. Although in general girls are ahead of boys in "coachability," each kid is different as far as when "the light bulb" snaps on. But somewhere in that age-range is where I'm most valuable: teach fundamentals during the week, then let the game teach on weekends. Is a beautiful process, really... Then it gets real good again, around "after 16" as far as the boys go... by that time they've years of the same system, their fundamentals are strong, yet they know they won't get a hickey for taking risks... That can get pretty awesome...

For the really young kids you're talking about, I prefer leagues that don't even keep score. The main lesson there is it's fun to get out and ask your body to fly around doing stuff... Plus, I have a problem with "little league" parents, if you know what I mean...? In one sense, I was lucky dealing with at-risk, inner-city kids cuz we had so had little parental involvement: not much support, but no meddling, either. The few times the "experts" wanted to "correct" my game strategy, all I hadda do was mention we needed assistant coaches...lol *poof* g-o-n-e. As you say, the tendency is to disappear re coaching, but what I mean, I can't tell you how many games we had no parents, or maybe 1-2, 3-4... of course, once we were well known, it changed somewhat...

However, lol, you're talking grandkids...doubt I could resist that. Must be a deep, deep joy...
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
If so, then it sounds like you have run into a lot of students who were taught math in very much the same way that the Munchkin Man taught math.

i never had a math teacher that liked their job...
i could (easily) tell they hated it... and i hated math class too, but i still got a 660 SAT, so i musta picked up something in spite of all the loathing

and from your posts? its' obvious you hated it too...
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:
To Mr. Bdgee:

The Munchkin Man would like to revisit a question that the Munchkin Man asked you earlier.

It was a question that you failed to answer.

Here is that question:
________________

How exactly have you been spending a "lifetime" correcting what you claim the Munchkin Man has done to the "young minds" you have described?
_________________

Have you run into any of the Munchkin Man's former students?

That's what it sounds like if the Munchkin Man takes your claim literally.

Are you trying to say that you have spent a lifetime correcting what other teachers, who have a similar teaching style to that of the Munchkin Man, have done to young minds?

If so, then it sounds like you have run into a lot of students who were taught math in very much the same way that the Munchkin Man taught math.

Is the Munchkin Man on the right path?

If so, then it sounds like you have a deeply ingrained axe to grind against the Munchkin Man's personal teaching style, one which has been festering inside of you for a long time.

With such hostility, then how can you be truly objective about the Munchkin Man's style of teaching?

Think on these things.

Thanks in advance.

Very Sincerely,

Munchkin Man

Muuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnchhhhhhhhieeeeeee, you bullied kids...maybe cuz you were bullied? who knows? only you can know. No one else can know, anymore than you can logically posit festering axe-grinds...No one needs to be objective about that "style" of teaching--objectively it's goofy; subjectively we *all* hated it.

Munch is lucky! Munch never had young Tex in Munch's class... [Razz]
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
Greetings Natural Resources:

The Munchkin Man would like to thank you for a beautifully written and thought provoking testimonial on what it was like to be on both ends of the bullying experience.

In fact, it is one of the best pieces the Munchkin Man has ever read on the subject.

Yet, the Munchkin Man still does not believe that he ever crossed the line with the high and exacting standards he demanded from his students.

The Munchkin Man was tough.

The Munchkin Man was fair.

Believe it or not, the Munchkin Man was really a very caring and compassionate teacher.

The Munchkin Man would bend over backwards to help any student who truly sought his help.

The Munchkin Man was always willing to help any student who wanted to come to see him after school.

The problem was that the Munchkin Man usually had a number of students staying back for after school detention on almost every school day.

It was the Munchkin Man's love and aptitude for mathematics, along with the Munchkin Man's sense of fair play, which tempered the "revenge" he got from his students.

This "revenge" may have crossed the line and run amok if the Munchkin Man had chosen a different career, such as a police officer.

Fortunately, the Munchkin Man did not take that career path.

Besides, the Munchkin Man would have never made it in police academy anyway.

That's because the Munchkin Man has a fear of guns.

As it turned out, the Munchkin Man's "revenge" turned out to be nothing more than a set of standards which were higher than that of the typical teacher.

There is nothing wrong with high standards -- as long as your standards are fair and the means by which you evaluate how your students perform to your standards are fair.

The Munchkin Man always tried to be fair.

Therefore, the Munchkin Man has no regrets over the teaching practices he employed and the standards he upheld during his teaching career.

What the Munchkin Man does regret is having his teaching career run into the crosswinds of the touchy feely "self-esteem" movement.

It was this movement which brainwashed many teachers into dumbing down their academic standards and wet nursing their students to death with false and phony levels of self-esteem.

The Munchkin Man was out of place during this era.

The Munchkin Man has always been a staunch traditionalist.

The Munchkin Man was never a fan of John Dewey.

Maybe the Munchkin Man should have been born in a different era.

The Munchkin Man will now bring this to a close.

Thanks again for the great testimonial.

Good luck to you.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
If so, then it sounds like you have run into a lot of students who were taught math in very much the same way that the Munchkin Man taught math.

i never had a math teacher that liked their job...
i could (easily) tell they hated it... and i hated math class too, but i still got a 660 SAT, so i musta picked up something in spite of all the loathing

and from your posts? its' obvious you hated it too...

man...that 3rd-person thingee is one thing...but the passive-aggresive chit just reeks...
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
Munchkin Man,

Thank you for your kind words regarding my posts in this thread.

quote:
Later on the Munchkin Man got his revenge.

The Munchkin Man became a math teacher and became the hardest teacher in the school.

The Munchkin Man was the only teacher in his entire school who would refuse to pass a student whose final average was only 1 point away from passing.

The Munchkin Man used to love to take out his little red pen and mark things wrong with big red Xs.

My comments were based on the context in which the word "revenge" was used.

To me, your use of the term "revenge" appears spiteful and it seems like your actions were done out of bitterness for things done to you in the past.

If I am incorrect in this interpretation, please forgive me.

Only you and your students know the truth about the events of which you speak, and I have no reason to doubt your word... So if you can look into your heart and honestly say you didn't cross the line, then I believe you.

NR.
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
btw, NR?

That *was* a good post...

Is a dynamic often shrugged off as "part of growing up," but I know it shaped my life, significantly...
 
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
 
Tex, you said it the way i wish i could write it, we have both seen the same things just different versions from kids and parents. Full time job for me now, i said that a little wrong, meant full time commitment to the team, did not want to be main man and all the responsibilites by myself this time, getting a little old for that, i just wanted to help with the kids that needed the most help. You really did have a full time job, i did remember that. They wanted me to take over and run the AAU baseball program a lot of years ago, but decided not to, so i kind of know what you mean. The nice part about soccer and basketball, you can run the kids a lot more to get some of that energy out of them, baseball is a little harder to keep them as busy. Girls in general seem to have that better attention span in those younger ages. I love that pharse "the light bulb snaps on". I still think back on some of the funny stories, a few maybe not so funny at the time. I learned a big lesson one day, at the end of practice just after throwing batting practice to the kids, the parents were there to pick them up, so i told them to spend some time throwing to their kids at home, so they could get more reps at batting. For several practices after this, one player seem to be shying away from the ball, his dad asked if he could throw batting practice, i said sure, he hits the batter, he could not throw the ball, so from then on i always suggested throwing tennis balls, unless i knew the dad could throw. I always used tennis balls on the kids all thru my coaching years, except maybe 20 reps each at practice with hard balls. I had an old Dudley Pitching Machine(i do not know if i told you the story of the pitching machine) in the batting cage i set up in the back yard, and thats all i used in it, then i would throw live arm with tennis balls also. One of my friends borrowed a radar gun from the police department one day, he worked there, he was curious how fast i could throw them. I was throwing them at 82mph little league distance(or a little under) and those tennis balls can move around to. I had kids over at my house for batting practice all thru high school, and a lot of these kids had since gone on to other high schools to play. I would get those calls quite often from the kids asking me if they could come over to hit, they were in a slump or wanted more reps. It was great fun, all those years the time spent was so worth it. So many parents miss so much by not getting involved in their kids activities.
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
Tex, you said it the way i wish i could write it, we have both seen the same things just different versions from kids and parents. Full time job for me now, i said that a little wrong, meant full time commitment to the team, did not want to be main man and all the responsibilites by myself this time, getting a little old for that, i just wanted to help with the kids that needed the most help. You really did have a full time job, i did remember that. They wanted me to take over and run the AAU baseball program a lot of years ago, but decided not to, so i kind of know what you mean. The nice part about soccer and basketball, you can run the kids a lot more to get some of that energy out of them, baseball is a little harder to keep them as busy. Girls in general seem to have that better attention span in those younger ages. I love that pharse "the light bulb snaps on". I still think back on some of the funny stories, a few maybe not so funny at the time. I learned a big lesson one day, at the end of practice just after throwing batting practice to the kids, the parents were there to pick them up, so i told them to spend some time throwing to their kids at home, so they could get more reps at batting. For several practices after this, one player seem to be shying away from the ball, his dad asked if he could throw batting practice, i said sure, he hits the batter, he could not throw the ball, so from then on i always suggested throwing tennis balls, unless i knew the dad could throw. I always used tennis balls on the kids all thru my coaching years, except maybe 20 reps each at practice with hard balls. I had an old Dudley Pitching Machine(i do not know if i told you the story of the pitching machine) in the batting cage i set up in the back yard, and thats all i used in it, then i would throw live arm with tennis balls also. One of my friends borrowed a radar gun from the police department one day, he worked there, he was curious how fast i could throw them. I was throwing them at 82mph little league distance(or a little under) and those tennis balls can move around to. I had kids over at my house for batting practice all thru high school, and a lot of these kids had since gone on to other high schools to play. I would get those calls quite often from the kids asking me if they could come over to hit, they were in a slump or wanted more reps. It was great fun, all those years the time spent was so worth it. So many parents miss so much by not getting involved in their kids activities.

ohhhh man, that's some good stuff...I got tears in my eyes...lol...

ooohhh, ya... we got stories to share...
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I've had many mathematics students and I can promise you each any every one of them understood I love the stuff.

Hell, you couldn't know as much as I do without loving it. And if you don't love the students loving it, they won't.....they won't so much as offer a glimmer of interest. You can grade them, but you won't teach them.

With deep commitement it is possible to light that flame of desire in students, too. But not if they are assured that everything comes down to a grade.

The following quote is not from R.L. Moore, it is from bdgee, but it is one he approved of: "A classroom is not a place to teach. It is a place to meet people that you teach in the hallways".

Mathematics is far too difficult a subject to learn within the time constraints of a class. It caannot be learned as a compilization of facts and techniques. It IS a contact sport. It lives.....

From Isaack Walton's [i]The Complete Angler, "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt".
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
Hey Mr. Bdgee:

Here is an activity the Munchkin Man used to give to his students once a year.

The Munchkin Man begins the class period by asking a student volunteer to call out any one-digit number besides zero.

The Munchkin Man writes that one-digit number on the board.

Then the Munchkin Man asks 4 more students to take turns calling out 4 more one-digit numbers.
This time the digits CAN be zero.

The Munchkin Man writes these 4 digits on the board after the 1st one. The result is a 5-digit number that does not begin with zero.

Then the Munchkin Man pauses.

The Munchkin Man asks a student to call out another one-digit number besides zero.

The Munchkin Man writes this digit on the board after an empty space following the previous and 5th digit.

Then the Munchkin Man asks 9 more student volunteers to call out 9 more one-digit numbers.
This time the digits CAN be zero.

The Munchkin Man writes these 9 digits on the board after the 6th one. The result is a separate 10-digit number that does not begin with zero.

Can you see where this is going?

Let's see how well you know the Munchkin Man.

The Munchkin Man would then draw a long division box between the 5th and the 6th digit.

The result was a long division problem with a 5-digit divisor and a 10-digit dividend.

This was the Munchkin Man's classwork assignment for that day.

The students were also required to check their answer by multiplying the divisor by the dividend and then adding the remainder to the product.

Students were allowed to finish this assignment for homework.

Each and every single long division step had to be shown neatly and in detail.

Each and every multiplication row in the "check" had to be shown neatly and in detail as well.

This assignment was graded.

Calculators were not allowed.

This was during a bygone era when calculators were not yet allowed in the Munchkin Man's school.

What do you think of this assignment?

A lot of modern educators would say it is abusive, irrelevent, pointless, and all sorts of other things.

Some would even say it is sadistic.

The Munchkin Man says it is none of the above.

The Munchkin Man says it is an excellent exercise for the brain.

The Munchkin Man believes that the primary goal of education is to develop and strengthen the mind.

Long division problems such as the Munchkin Man just described do exactly that.

They challenge the student to think and compute with absolute precision at each and every step until the final answer is achieved.

Before the age of calculators, many of the Munchkin Man's students used to enjoy these types of assignments.

Some of them would come into the Munchkin Man's classroom with several pages full of long division, boasting and beaming proudly that they got the answer.

This is only one way that the Munchkin Man would promote the appreciation of the beauty of arithmetic for his students.

These students were proud of themselves.

The Munchkin Man was proud of these students.

The Munchkin Man was proud to be a math teacher.
_____________________

Very Sincerely,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
You might as well have them stack their shoes into a pyramid and claim that was class participation. It doesn't expect the students to participate other than ritually following orders and it isn't mathematics, but arithmatic.

Those students may have been proud of following orders. That is a pity.

Creativity does not issue from ritual or rote task.

Mathematics is not arithmatic.

Conformaty does not breed comprehension, it obliterates it.
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
btw, NR?

That *was* a good post...

Is a dynamic often shrugged off as "part of growing up," but I know it shaped my life, significantly...

Thanks Tex.

As you can see, it shaped mine as well.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
You might as well have them stack their shoes into a pyramid and claim that was class participation. It doesn't expect the students to participate other than ritually following orders and it isn't mathematics, but arithmatic.

_____

In other words, you give little or no educational value to the classroom and homework assignment the Munchkin Man described.

The Munchkin Man views the process of solving a long division division problem as one of the most beautiful adventures a student can take.

Solving a long division problem requires a complete mastery of one's multiplication facts and subtraction algorithms.

Solving a long division problem requires an absolute precision of thought and the ability to carry out its steps in a methodical and systemic order.

Therein lies the beauty of solving a long division problem. The beauty lies in its order and precision.

Solving a long division problem to its absolute and final result is a journey.

The longer the problem, the longer is the journey.

And the more beautiful that journey is along the way.

The intrinsic worth and beauty of solving long division problems can not be measured or fully described.

In spite of the Munchkin Man's skills of verbal expression, the intrinsic worth and beauty of long division goes far beyond what the Munchkin Man is able to express in words.

The Munchkin Man is very saddened that you don't see it.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
You might produce mechanical rote ability, little automatons of arithmetic, but noting worthwhile, unless following detailed orders put forth by some authority in power turns you on, which I suspect may be what you do like and what you imagine thinking amounts to.

Again, I point out that arithmetic, valuable as it is, indespensible even our world, is NOT mathematics.

Don't you worry about me seeing. I do indeed see what you are doing and vigerously disapproave. Where the lack of communication you notice comes from is that you can't see. There is a wide and magnificient world out there that you simply cannot see.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Those students may have been proud of following orders. That is a pity.

_____

To the contrary.

It is a cause for celebration.

It is a time to rejoice.

The mastery of arithmetical algorithms requires the sequential application of a series of steps.

The Munchkin Man calls them "steps."

You call them "orders."

The Munchkin Man is of the persuasion that mathematics is learned best in a linear fashion through a prescribed sequence of steps.

This means you master Step A before you go on to Step B.

This means you master Step B before you go on to
Step C.

And so on.

If a student gets stuck on Step C, you give the student additional practice with Step C.

If needed, you break down Step C into a series of smaller Step Cs.

Then when Step C is finally mastered, you go on to Step D.

But you call these "orders."

This reminds the Munchkin Man of something his 9th grade Science teacher told his class one day.
_____

"You're going to forget a lot of your Science. You're going to forget a lot of your Social Studies. You're going to forget a lot about all of your subjects. But the most important lesson you will learn in this class is how to obey and follow orders. If you can learn how to do that, then you can learn anything else."
_____

What this teacher was trying to say is that learning how to obey and follow orders is all about learning the discipline it takes to learn.

It's that simple.

Now then.

The Munchkin Man has a question for you.

What exactly is your problem with authority?

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Creativity does not issue from ritual or rote task.

_____

Creativity?

Ahem!

The Munchkin Man is a math teacher.

Not an art teacher.

The Munchkin Man's primary task is to teach his students the basics and to try to get them to master the basics.

The basics come first.

Before you can learn to think outside the box, you have to learn how to think inside the box.

Too many students don't know how to think at all.

Therefore, the place to start is inside the box.

You start with the basics.

The best way to teach the basics is through plenty of drill, repeition, and rote practice.

The Munchkin Man used to give his students lots and lots of drill, repetition, and rote practice.

The Munchkin Man used to give his students lots and lots of worksheets.

The Munchkin Man always designed and composed his own worksheets. The Munchkin Man never stooped down to using those inferior and tacky worksheets that are found in those commercial workbooks.

The Munchkin Man's worksheets were vastly superior. They had a higher level of order and design. They were better structured.

Most importantly, they had more problems to keep the students busier for longer periods of time.

Designing and composing mathematics worksheets is yet another way in which the Munchkin Man used his extraordinary literary gifts.

Indeed, it is the very fortunate student who was ever blessed with the opportunity to work on a Munchkin Man Worksheet.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Conformaty does not breed comprehension, it obliterates it.

_____

You have regurgitated yet another myth from the liberal wing of educational thought.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Conformity to following the essential and sequential steps to any given arithmetical algorithm or mathematical procedure is absolutely essential to the mastery of that algorighm or procedure.

Once you know how to do it and do it well, your comprehension has been achieved.

You're "there."

Doing is understanding.

The Munchkin Man believes in teaching the "how" before the "why."

Once the student learns and masters the "how", the "why" begins to fall into place.

With proper follow-up instruction, the "why" begins to open up for the student like the petals of a rose.

Contrary to what you say, conformity does not obliterate comprehension.

Conformity is an essential and necessary prerequisite for comprehension.

It is non-conformity which is a barrier to comprehension and mastery.

The Munchkin Man has spoken.

Please think on these things.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
You might produce mechanical rote ability, little automatons of arithmetic, but noting worthwhile, unless following detailed orders put forth by some authority in power turns you on, which I suspect may be what you do like and what you imagine thinking amounts to.

_____

Little automatons of arithmetic?

The lack of automaticy that American students of today display with their mathematics facts is one of the biggest causes, if not the biggest cause, of their poor showing in mathematics today.

And you say that the attainment of automaticy with respect to the mastery of basic mathematics facts is "nothing worthwhile?"

Then you go into a tangent about how such an approach is all about "authority" and "power."

Sir, your slip is showing.

Please allow the Munchkin Man to ask you again.

What exactly is your problem with authority?

Please think about this question.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I don't have a problem with authority, you do.

I don't need someone to tell me what to do or what to think, you do. And then you have the gall to dictate that I should become another toady to ritual. Worse, that I should accept a toady to ritual teaching children to obey first and foremost.

I do not believe in this world or the nexr or the ones after that, you will ever develope the discipline needed to learn mathematics. It is a very rare ability. I do not doubt that you have a much deeper talent for memorization than I would ever permit, but, that isn't learning. Stick with arithmetic.

Your 9th grade science teacher was full of it. Such a restricted view of scholarshipt is an indication of the inability to see beyond what is spoon fed and there can't be anything intellectually in the spoon that isn't stale or nearly so.

You can't create new ideas following orders. Finding your pleasure in following orders points to a serious personality flaw. Certainly there are situations where "conformity" is of value, like driving on the right side of the road (assuming you are in North America.....bad idea in England), but intellectual pursuits is not one of those situations.

Teaching is a task to be aimed at the intellectual development of students, with the subject matter mearly a path to that goal. Arithmetic is a tool, nothing more. Arithhmatic proficiency is desirable, but it is not necessary and may, when taught for the teacher's comfort, be detrimental to the intellectual development of the student. The object is not to turn out a finished product, but one that isn't turned off by the need to develop new and challenging uses of the subject matter when thaat arises later in life......one that can confidently learn as the need appears.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
I do not believe in this world or the nexr or the ones after that, you will ever develope the discipline needed to learn mathematics. It is a very rare ability. I do not doubt that you have a much deeper talent for memorization than I would ever permit, but, that isn't learning. Stick with arithmetic.

_____

The Munchkin Man developed the discipline to learn mathematics a long time ago.

That's how the Munchkin Man became so supremely qualified to teach mathematics for so many years.

You say that memorization "isn't learning."

This is yet another myth which is propogated by
the liberal left wing of the educational establishment.

Memorization is a form of learning.

Memorization is a wonderful method of learning.

Memorization is an exercise and a tonic for the mind.

It gives the mind strength and endurance.

Do you know why so many students of today shock their parents and their grandparents with their ignorance of so many historical, geographical, scientific, and mathematical facts that they themselves memorized, and therefore learned, when they were in school?

It is because the liberal educationaal establishment has brainwashed many of their teachers into a belief system that "memorization is bad."

As a result, these students never had to memorize these facts.

And it is the liberal educrats who are to blame.

Memorization is a valuable and wonderful tool for learning.

Hopefully, the pendulum is beginning to shift back toward the realization of this very basic and essential truth.

The Munchkin Man has spoken.

Please think on this matter.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
You can't create new ideas following orders. Finding your pleasure in following orders points to a serious personality flaw.

_____

New ideas?

What new ideas?

Who said anything about new ideas?

The Munchkin Man is just trying to teach his students the old ideas.

Are you forgetting that the Munchkin Man was a junior high school and middle school teacher?

The Munchkin Man never needed to teach his students any new ideas.

Has the value of 7 X 8 changed over the past few centuries?

Has the forumula for finding the area of a triangle changed over the past few centuries?

Exactly what "new ideas" do you think the Munchkin Man needs to teach his students which have already not been discovered?

Mathematics is what mathematics is.

Therefore, the Munchkin Man will stick to the old ideas.

And the way you learn the old ideas is to follow the steps or "orders" which are essential for their mastery.

You say that the Munchkin Man's preference for following sequential steps, or "orders" as you call them, indicates a "serious personality flaw."

The Munchkin Man believes that your outright hostility to the use of procedural steps and protocals is a more serious personality flaw.

It is also a more dangerous one.

Let the Munchkin Man ask you again.

What is your problem with authority?

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
Math at one point was my best subject.

To the point that my school decided to jump me past pre-algebra and go straight to algebra.

A big mistake. I don't know if I missed some vital steps or if I just shut off or what but I never was capable of more than C level work after that. Even in Geometry.

Things would make sense the day I learned them and the next day I couldn't reproduce.

Weirdest thing...I was really scared of Physics and Chemistry because of my struggles in math but I rarely had a problem I couldn't work my way out of. I don't know if it was having a different perspective or what but I could do in those classes what I couldn't do in mathematics classes.

I never did go beyond basic algebra because of that. I shied away from Calculus completely. Always have wondered what went wrong there. Years of frustration that I've never found an answer for.
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
Math at one point was my best subject.

To the point that my school decided to jump me past pre-algebra and go straight to algebra.

A big mistake. I don't know if I missed some vital steps or if I just shut off or what but I never was capable of more than C level work after that. Even in Geometry.

Things would make sense the day I learned them and the next day I couldn't reproduce.

Weirdest thing...I was really scared of Physics and Chemistry because of my struggles in math but I rarely had a problem I couldn't work my way out of. I don't know if it was having a different perspective or what but I could do in those classes what I couldn't do in mathematics classes.

I never did go beyond basic algebra because of that. I shied away from Calculus completely. Always have wondered what went wrong there. Years of frustration that I've never found an answer for.

You had a Munchie for a teacher!


lol...j/k...

some are geared for "this," some geared for "that"... I could ignore (lol, "skip") almost any humanities, language, BSS, history etc and do fine on tests. BUT to keep up in algebra, geometry and so forth...well, damn--gotta go to class.
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
R.E.M. "Everybody Hurts"
(Berry/Buck/Mills/Stipe)

When the day is long and the night, the night is yours alone,
When you're sure you've had enough of this life, well hang on
Don't let yourself go, 'cause everybody cries and everybody hurts sometimes

Sometimes everything is wrong. Now it's time to sing along
When your day is night alone, (hold on, hold on)
If you feel like letting go, (hold on)
When you think you've had too much of this life, well hang on

'Cause everybody hurts. Take comfort in your friends
Everybody hurts. Don't throw your hand. Oh, no. Don't throw your hand
If you feel like you're alone, no, no, no, you are not alone

If you're on your own in this life, the days and nights are long,
When you think you've had too much of this life to hang on

Well, everybody hurts sometimes,
Everybody cries. And everybody hurts sometimes
And everybody hurts sometimes. So, hold on, hold on
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on
Everybody hurts. You are not alone
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
LOL TEX,

I didn't start skipping with any regularity until college. (I did my fair share and then some after that!) This was way back in the high school days.

One of my favorite groups NR.

I doubt Munchie was my teacher. Never had a teacher with TPRD. [Smile]
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
LOL TEX,

I didn't start skipping with any regularity until college. (I did my fair share and then some after that!) This was way back in the high school days.

One of my favorite groups NR.

I doubt Munchie was my teacher. Never had a teacher with TPRD. [Smile]

Big,

I had a "free pass" in high school. Lawzy!

Our Asst Principal was in charge of off-campus stuff. He knew I was to be trusted, so I had that out, but my buds had to pull tricks and dive out windows while teacher not looking, etc...


Plus, I found a set of keys (some teacher's, I guessed at the time) that let me into every room inside the entire high school, but ODDLY ENOUGH *not* the exterior doors. Guess they weren't "trusted" enough to have exterior key...

Anyway, was good...

I did screw up by skipping Latin my senior year (hot girlfriend, lol)...only "C" I can remember.


Was worth it though... [Big Grin]
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
I bet it was.

"The Price is Right" wasn't the only reason I missed a good chunk of my morning classes in college. LOL

She left me the parting gift of a smoking habit that I could of done without but good memories all the same.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Munchie, do you realise that when you gave all those bullies all those "fair" but harsh grades that they became frustrated and angry? Do you know who they took that anger out on? the kids that were just like you. when you go on to write all of your Tv shows? i hope you keep that in mind....

___________________

Hi Mr. Glassman,

Thank you very much for sharing some very interesting thoughts with the Munchkin Man.

Now you've got the Munchkin Man thinking as well.

Suppose......

Just suppose.......

That the Munchkin Man really was being a bully during all that time he taught those students.

If this was the case, it wasn't really intentional.

It was all happening on an unconscious level.

In any event, that wouldn't excuse the Munchkin Man.

This means the Munchkin Man would still have a karmic debt to pay.

How does the Munchkin Man go about doing that?

One idea would be for the Munchkin Man to visit the jail in the city where the Munchkin Man used to teach.

This is where many of the Munchkin Man's former students now live.

Within seconds after beginning his tour, many of them would start cursing at the Munchkin Man.

Some of them would start spitting on the Munchkin Man.

Even worse, others would throw icky nasty things at the Munchkin Man.

What if the Munchkin Man were to take this tour once a week for an entire year?

Would that settle the Munchkin Man's karmic debt?

Somehow, the Munchkin Man doesn't think so.

Maybe the Munchkin Man is being too hard on himself.

Maybe the Munchkin Man wasn't really being a bully after all.

Maybe the Munchkin Man was just being the type of teacher he was supposed to be.

For the Munchkin Man still believes in all of his teaching philosophies described in this thread with all his heart and all his soul.

Thanks again for a very thought provoking post.

Good luck to you.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Maybe the Munchkin Man should purchase himself a whaling slicker before he walks the green mile again.

http://www.nextag.com/rain-slicker/search-html [Eek!]
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
munchie? you wanna pay karmic debt? go to the local salvation army soup kitchen and slice onions...
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
OK, Munchie, i read thru the thread.

i have to make some comments here:

A) you like order, it makes you feel in control of SOMETHING in a world that really is chaos..

B) methematics is a language, arithmetic is the grammar... you taught grammar to kids who didn't have ANYTHING TO SAY... [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
He taught grammer to kids and refused to allow them to say anythig at all, just obey and be subserviant.

Mathematicsis not a test of memory and endurance and data storaage.

Mathematics is an art.

Before you agree, disagree, or object, consider that a blind man cannot see the Mona Lisa to like or dislike or appreciate it or decide it is not good. It isn't his fault, but it is a fact. And his inability to appreciate the beauty of Leanardo's masterpiece does not make the portrait be not art.

The inability to recognize a thing has or hasn't beauty does not make it not art , just inaccessable to the person that can't judge it.

I have always wondered how much more beauty we who are trapped without his actual language to see with might see in Omar's Rubaiyat had we that means of seeing. (Omar, in his Rubaiyat, was not actually talking of lovers and drinking and celebration, which is the more common perception, but of his students and their learning and mathematics. He was, for those of you not already informed, a teacher and professor of mathematics.)

Have you ever wondered what a man or woman, born deaf and still deaf thinks we mean when we say such as "Beethoven wrote beautiful music"?

Do you suppose a mathematician might wonder what a normal non-mathematician might think is meant when one mathematician complements another by saying, "That was a beautiful result you found"?

From H. S. Wall's Creative Mathematics (1966, I believe), "The mathematician is an artist whose medium is the mind and whose creations are ideas."

In 1945 issure of the newspaper of the Illinios Institute of Technology, Wall wrote, with respect to the teaching of mathemtics, "....the fault lies in the prevalent idea that mathematics is a kit of tools all arranged in little packages. ... Rather than being a tool subject, I believe Mathematics is an art - the purest form of art, in which the mind is the instrument of expression. This is the art which takes chaos and builds from it magnificient structure and reason."
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
OK, Munchie, i read thru the thread.

i have to make some comments here:

A) you like order, it makes you feel in control of SOMETHING in a world that really is chaos..

B) methematics is a language, arithmetic is the grammar... you taught grammar to kids who didn't have ANYTHING TO SAY... [Roll Eyes]

_________

Hi Mr. Glassman,

Thank you very much for sharing your latest thoughts with the Munchkin Man.

In regard to (A), the Munchkin Man has no argument there. The Munchkin Man has always seen beauty in order and precision.

This is what makes the world so beautiful. It is bound by mathematical and physical laws.

It is the human population on the planet which causes all the chaos.

Mathematics is about order and precision, first and foremost. The "art" that Mr. Bdgee talks about is an application of mathematics that can come later. But the basics come first.

In regard to (B), your comment reminds the Munchkin Man of the old adage:

"Every class is an English class."

This was true in the Munchkin Man's mathematics classes.

Correct grammar and spelling were essential for success in all of the Munchkin Man's mathematics classes.

Suppose the Munchkin Man asked a student to write the following number in words on a test:

4,044

And the student wrote:

"Four thousand fourty-four."

How many mistakes do you see?

There are two.

First, the student forgot to include the comma.

Second, the student misspelled the word "forty" as "fourty." Although the number "4" is spelled as "four", the letter "u" is dropped when you spell "40" as "forty."

This is one of the most commonly misspelled math number words today and yesterday alike.

How much credit would the Munchkin Man give the student for writing and spelling the number 4,044 in the manner illustrated above?

None.

The Munchkin Man would count it completely wrong.

After all, there is no listing of a number "fourty" in the Munchkin Man's dictionary.

The Munchkin Man cannot give credit for something that does not exist.

The Munchkin Man was a stickler for grammar and spelling.

The Munchkin Man was proud of it.

Thanks again for sharing your latest thoughts.

Good luck to you.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
He taught grammer to kids and refused to allow them to say anythig at all, just obey and be subserviant.

Mathematicsis not a test of memory and endurance and data storaage.

Mathematics is an art.


_____

Dear Mr. Bdgee:

The Munchkin Man has counted a total of three misspelled words alone in your brief statements quoted above.

Perhaps, your command of the English language would have derived from benefit from being enrolled in one of the Munchkin Man's mathematics classes.

When it comes to your philosophy and the Munchkin Man's philosophy in regard to what mathematics is and how it should be taught, you and the Munchkin Man not only come from different planets. You and the Munchkin Man come from different galaxies.

You teach mathematics like the Democrats think.

The Munchkin Man teaches mathematics like the Republicans think.

The Munchkin Man can see a place for your approach in a graduate level college mathematics course.

However, the class you teach in any college or university of intellectual integrity would almost be certain to have to be of an elective status, instead of one which focused upon conventional and mainstream mathematics.

However, your approach would fall flat in an inner city middle school or junior high school setting where the Munchkin Man used to teach.

Many public schools in a growing number of states are becoming dominated by the high stakes testing movement. Test scores in these states have become the "bottom line" for any given school's accountability and performance.

This does not allow for a whole lot of room for the "art" you speak of. Mastering the state standards comes first.

The Munchkin Man fully embraces the high stakes testing movement.

This gives the Munchkin Man more proofreading projects with mathematics workbooks which are chock full of practice multiple-choice mathematics problems which were spawned by their state standards.

Speaking of art, the Munchkin Man regards the writing and the construction of a multiple-choice mathematics problem as an art.

Writing and composing a multiple-choice mathematics problem is like builiding a piece of sculpture. That's what it feels like to the Munchkin Man.

The Munchkin Man also loves to proofread a poorly written and designed multiple-choice problem and reshape it completely from scratch until it is a magnificant work of art.

So you see, Mr. Bdgee.

The Munchkin Man really does see art in mathematics.

You and the Munchkin Man see different types of art in mathematics.

The Munchkin Man has spoken.

Please think on these things.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
It is the human population on the planet which causes all the chaos.
de dam bipeds! lol...

btw, mr. precision, look up restrictive/nonrestrictive re: which/that, comma usage. Wouldn't normally mention that, but I do recall your foray into book editing... [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
Dear Mr. Bdgee,

In an effort to try to convert you more to the Munchkin Man's way of thinking, the Munchkin Man has compiled a reading list for you.

Here is your required reading link list:
_______________

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/bshm.html

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/AHistory.html

If you read nothing else, please read the two articles listed above.

The Munchkin Man guarantees that you will learn something.

The Munchkin Man shall now continue with his list:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_3_7_03mc.html

http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/wbishop.htm

The following article is an excellent defense of the tried and true "lecture" method of teaching mathematics from the Carnegie Foundation For The Advancement Of Teaching:

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/change/sub.asp?key=98&subkey=2105&printable=tr ue

The following two articles provide excellent defenses on the benefits and virtues of the use of memorization for learning mathematics:

http://www.quickreckoning.com/math_research.htm

http://www.math.rochester.edu/people/faculty/rarm/memory.html
______________________

The Munchkin Man could go on and on.

However, the Munchkin Man will stop here at this time.

The Munchkin Man does not want to overload you intellectually with too many scholarly articles at one time.

Please take your time to read these articles and think about what they have to say.

You're welcome.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
quote:
It is the human population on the planet which causes all the chaos.
de dam bipeds! lol...

btw, mr. precision, look up restrictive/nonrestrictive re: which/that, comma usage. Wouldn't normally mention that, but I do recall your foray into book editing... [Roll Eyes]

_____

Greetings Tex:

The Munchkin Man would like to thank you for calling his attention to the sentence the Munchkin Man wrote and the grammatical issue you raised.

The Munchkin Man has determined that you have brought up a legitimate grammatical issue and that what you are trying to convey to the Munchkin Man is correct.

The Munchkin Man is always grateful whenever somebody points out a grammatical error he has committed.

The Munchkin Man has never claimed to be the epitome of perfection.

The Munchkin Man merely strives for perfection.

By the way, the Munchkin Man just completed a textbook editing project yesterday.

Thanks again!

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
Boy howdy! can't imagine the production editor's take on your third-person responses... not to mention your not knowing something so basic as which, that usage...

this editing project? online, or red-pencil?

(btw, I didn't "try to convey": you needed to be told, and I told--you really should drop that passive-aggressive chit)

anyhow, you're welcome...glad to be of service
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
After formal eduction that included a significant amount of graduate work in the English Departmentt of a very large University, much of which was devoted to the editing of newly written materials, among my other professional experience are a number of years serving as a writer and editor. The page count of those publications reaches way way into the thousands, without touching on my personal publiched work in mathematics, the sciences, and engineering. I really doubt that I need need the assistance or correction of a delusional looser that can't handle tenses appropriately, let alone writing styles in general, and cannot manage the rather simple task of normal punctuation without resort to a set of "gramer rules" that are guaranteed to be often result in logical falacy and discord from literary custom.

I cannot possibly believe you could actually imagine you have the ability to "overload (me) intellectually with too many scholarly articles at one time" (but I doubt the reverse would be terribly difficult), but simply scanning for the tenor of the links you provide tells me I have swum through that excuse for responsible instruction before. I won't wade in that cess pool again.

You amount to nothing more than a pedagogical bully striving to make unimaginative automatons of captured minds, while, from the time one of them is trapped in your clutches, you serves as an object of fear and disgust for those young minds and a horrible detriment for the hope of any one of those students ever becoming proficient in mathematics (and probably, as a result of exposure to your rigidity and bullying, ever locked out of practical OR profitable agility in any intellectual endeavor).

Again, what you claim to do is not mathematics or its teaching and instruction, which are a topics you certainly can't handle or deal with.

What you are is a sociological illness with an ego that thrives on the forced subjugation of inexperienced innocent intellect.

Certainly you have a right to whatever opinion you have and I respect that right fundamentally, but that right does not confer on you the RIGHT, or envne the PRIVILEGE, to restrice, by indoctrination, the development of opinions and thought in an innocent mind.

(As an aside, I thought I had read every published work of Joseph Conrad many years back, then reread all of those again later. Then, yesterday, I stopped at a garage sale in the neighborhood [I try to always do so in my neighborhood, not to buy, but to get to know and get to communicate with my neighbors] and found a book by Conrad I don't remember ever seeing before. I bought it. I am thrilled and excited with my find and hoping it isn't a title that has simply slipped my memory. Once before, I had a similar find and was able to provide a novel that many had thought was lost somewhere in history to friends in the English Department of two universities and it became foder resulting in at least two masters theses and one Ph.D dissertation in English literature. Scholarship is not bounded by the confines of single disciplines.)
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Many public schools in a growing number of states are becoming dominated by the high stakes testing movement. Test scores in these states have become the "bottom line" for any given school's accountability and performance.

This does not allow for a whole lot of room for the "art" you speak of. Mastering the state standards comes first.


i can assure you that spelling and grammar and rules are not the foundation of thought development....
if you want to raise kids to be all they can be? you have to bring them INTO the process. whatever that process is?

how did Einstein do in school? it's a joke..

does Einsteins BASIC work seem complicated once it is explained by someone who does understand it? not at all...

but if Einstein had been willing to allow himself to molded by teachers that taught in the way that you did MM? we would still be living in a Newtonian Universe.
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Worse, glass...

If that approach were always required, as MM wants, we would not have the works of Kepler, Galilio, Newton, Kanter, Hilbert, or Descartes, to name just a few, and we would be stuck in a flat world with the stars, the sun, and the planets presessing the Earth.
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
All this is giving me a headache........ [Big Grin]

In college, I made a C in Algebra and A C in English......SO the hell what. I dont think either one of them is an art....I found them both to be a pain in the ass at the eime.
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
oops...time. See I told you.
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
Boy howdy! can't imagine the production editor's take on your third-person responses... not to mention your not knowing something so basic as which, that usage...

this editing project? online, or red-pencil?

(btw, I didn't "try to convey": you needed to be told, and I told--you really should drop that passive-aggressive chit)

anyhow, you're welcome...glad to be of service

__________

Greetings Tex:

Thank you for writing to the Munchkin Man once again.

The Munchkin Man will do what you suggested and brush up on his use of "which" and "that."

The Munchkin Man has a copy of "The Chicago Manual Of Style" and needs to refer to it more often.

Even the Munchkin Man has room to improve.

However, the American Disabilities Act prevents the Munchkin Man's editorial supervisors from taking any action against his Third Person Communicative Disorder (TPCD).

On the other hand, you wouldn't believe all of the grammatical and spelling errors that show up in these textbook pages.

Some of these authors write almost as badly as Mr. Bdgee.

To answer your question, the Munchkin Man's latest project was a hard copy project.

This means that the Munchkin Man got to write on the pages with a red pencil or pen.

The Munchkin Man was also instructed to place a Post-It Note on the pages he marked on.

By the way, can you recommend a brand name for a high quality red pen the Munchkin Man can use for these projects?

The Munchkin Man bought several brands, and none of them were completely satisfactory. Most of them tended to smear.

In any event, it sounds like you know a little bit about this line of work.

If the Munchkin Man's memory is correct, you seemed to be a little skeptical when the Munchkin Man told you about a project that was sent to him on a series of disks a while back.

This is what really happened.

When the Munchkin Man first started doing this kind of work about two years ago, all of the Munchkin Man's assignments were done on his computer.

The Munchkin Man had to go to the company's ftp site to retrieve and download the textbook materials.

Then the Munchkin Man began receiving projects on disks just as he described.

Most recently, the Munchkin Man's last two projects have been hard copy projects.

This is now the Munchkin Man's favorite type of project.

The Munchkin Man doesn't have to worry about his computer breaking down.

The Munchkin Man appreciates the "portability" of this type of project.

The Munchkin Man can take the hard copy pages to the library if the Munchkin Man feels like getting out of his tiny studio apartment.

The Munchkin Man hopes to receive many future hard copy projects to come.

Thanks again for writing to the Munchkin Man.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
After formal eduction that included a significant amount of graduate work in the English Departmentt of a very large University, much of which was devoted to the editing of newly written materials, among my other professional experience are a number of years serving as a writer and editor. The page count of those publications reaches way way into the thousands, without touching on my personal publiched work in mathematics, the sciences, and engineering. I really doubt that I need need the assistance or correction of a delusional looser that can't handle tenses appropriately, let alone writing styles in general, and cannot manage the rather simple task of normal punctuation without resort to a set of "gramer rules" that are guaranteed to be often result in logical falacy and discord from literary custom.


____________________

To Mr. Bdgee:

It's a good thing the Munchkin Man is not your proofreader.

If the Munchkin Man was your proofreader, you would be in big trouble.

On the other hand, the Munchkin Man suspects that the grammatical and spelling errors you committed in the paragraph quoted above were done deliberately, in a pathetic attempt to make a mockery, albeit a phony one, of the Munchkin Man's preference for grammatical precision.

For this reason, the Munchkin Man will not waste his time correcting all of the grammatical and spelling errors you committed.

Would you be willing to tell the Munchkin Man the name of an article you have written and where it was published?

This would give the Munchkin Man a much better assessment of your true worth as a scholar and a writer than the unintelligible jibberish you have just posted.

Thanks in advance.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
I cannot possibly believe you could actually imagine you have the ability to "overload (me) intellectually with too many scholarly articles at one time" (but I doubt the reverse would be terribly difficult), but simply scanning for the tenor of the links you provide tells me I have swum through that excuse for responsible instruction before. I won't wade in that cess pool again.


_____

This speaks volumes.

Indeed, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

One result of a wasted mind is a narrow mind, which you have so very successfully demonstrated.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Worse, glass...

If that approach were always required, as MM wants, we would not have the works of Kepler, Galilio, Newton, Kanter, Hilbert, or Descartes, to name just a few, and we would be stuck in a flat world with the stars, the sun, and the planets presessing the Earth.

_____

This is a classic example of a slippery slope logical fallacy.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:


This is a classic example of a slippery slope logical fallacy.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

elaborate please...
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
Boy howdy! can't imagine the production editor's take on your third-person responses... not to mention your not knowing something so basic as which, that usage...

this editing project? online, or red-pencil?

(btw, I didn't "try to convey": you needed to be told, and I told--you really should drop that passive-aggressive chit)

anyhow, you're welcome...glad to be of service

__________

Greetings Tex:

Thank you for writing to the Munchkin Man once again.

The Munchkin Man will do what you suggested and brush up on his use of "which" and "that."

The Munchkin Man has a copy of "The Chicago Manual Of Style" and needs to refer to it more often.

Even the Munchkin Man has room to improve.

However, the American Disabilities Act prevents the Munchkin Man's editorial supervisors from taking any action against his Third Person Communicative Disorder (TPCD).

On the other hand, you wouldn't believe all of the grammatical and spelling errors that show up in these textbook pages.

Some of these authors write almost as badly as Mr. Bdgee.

To answer your question, the Munchkin Man's latest project was a hard copy project.

This means that the Munchkin Man got to write on the pages with a red pencil or pen.

The Munchkin Man was also instructed to place a Post-It Note on the pages he marked on.

By the way, can you recommend a brand name for a high quality red pen the Munchkin Man can use for these projects?

The Munchkin Man bought several brands, and none of them were completely satisfactory. Most of them tended to smear.

In any event, it sounds like you know a little bit about this line of work.

If the Munchkin Man's memory is correct, you seemed to be a little skeptical when the Munchkin Man told you about a project that was sent to him on a series of disks a while back.

This is what really happened.

When the Munchkin Man first started doing this kind of work about two years ago, all of the Munchkin Man's assignments were done on his computer.

The Munchkin Man had to go to the company's ftp site to retrieve and download the textbook materials.

Then the Munchkin Man began receiving projects on disks just as he described.

Most recently, the Munchkin Man's last two projects have been hard copy projects.

This is now the Munchkin Man's favorite type of project.

The Munchkin Man doesn't have to worry about his computer breaking down.

The Munchkin Man appreciates the "portability" of this type of project.

The Munchkin Man can take the hard copy pages to the library if the Munchkin Man feels like getting out of his tiny studio apartment.

The Munchkin Man hopes to receive many future hard copy projects to come.

Thanks again for writing to the Munchkin Man.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

"In any event, it sounds like you know a little bit about this line of work. "

DOH!

lol, one more time...I'm one of the few who has worked the news desk at both major dailies in Dallas & Fort Worth; also was senior project editor at Harcourt College Publishing...

You're asking about red pens: there's the standard little fine point...Flair? Sharpie? don't remember the brand name, but if you find a picture of it, I'll know it...a coupla the gel pens are OK, too... However, would that you were one of my freelancers, I'd ask you to stick with the ol' reliable Col-erase red, no. 2: I absolutely can't imagine how your "author queries" come across... [Roll Eyes]

As far as which/that goes, that's merely rudimentary mechanics. Of course you need Chicago, but you in particular should also keep Strunk & White within arm's reach at all hours...

Jiminy Christmas...what a world


g'luck, munchie...
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
oh crap Tex...

i was a bagholder on HBJ 2 decades back... dang...
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:


This is a classic example of a slippery slope logical fallacy.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

elaborate please...
_________________

From Wikipedia:

"In debate or rhetoric, the slippery slope is an argument for the likelihood of one event or trend given another. It suggests that an action will initiate a chain of events culminating in an undesirable event later."
_____

Mr. Bdgee is claiming that the "action" of the practice of the Munchkin Man's philosophy of teaching in previous centuries would have resulted in the following consequences:

A) The works of Kepler, Galilio, Newton, Kanter, Hilbert, Descartes, and other scientists would have never been published.

B) The world would still believe that the earth is flat.

Wouldn't you say that this is more than just a bit of a stretch?

The extreme consequences claimed by Mr. Bdgee above form a very steep and slippery slope, indeed.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
You are a wanna bee slippery critic, but passing gas is about the best utterances you manage.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
so MM... have you any Math student(s) that actually went on to become Mathematicians?

cuz that's how i take the measure of any Mentor...
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin Man:


This is a classic example of a slippery slope logical fallacy.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

elaborate please...
_________________

From Wikipedia:

"In debate or rhetoric, the slippery slope is an argument for the likelihood of one event or trend given another. It suggests that an action will initiate a chain of events culminating in an undesirable event later."
_____

Mr. Bdgee is claiming that the "action" of the practice of the Munchkin Man's philosophy of teaching in previous centuries would have resulted in the following consequences:

A) The works of Kepler, Galilio, Newton, Kanter, Hilbert, Descartes, and other scientists would have never been published.

B) The world would still believe that the earth is flat.

Wouldn't you say that this is more than just a bit of a stretch?

The extreme consequences claimed by Mr. Bdgee above form a very steep and slippery slope, indeed.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

lol, turn the telescope around!
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
Hello Tex,

Thank you once again for writing to the Munchkin Man.

The Munchkin Man almost fell out of his chair when you mentioned that you were once a senior editor with Harcourt College Publishing.

The Munchkin Man is very familiar with the "Harcourt" name.

Have you ever heard of Saxon Math?

Saxon Math is now an "imprint" of Harcourt Achieve, Inc.

http://saxonpublishers.harcourtachieve.com/en-US/saxonmath_home

The Munchkin Man did a proofreading project for Saxon Math once.

Did you have an office at 10801 N. MoPac Expressway, in Austin, Texas?

Or was the Harcourt College Publishing division located elsewhere?

Thanks also for your advice in regard to red pens and pencils. The Munchkin Man will look for the type of number 2 red pencil you recommended.

As you also suggested, the Munchkin Man is also keeping his copy of Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style" in closer reach.

With the utmost of humility, the Munchkin Man has to be honest and concede that he is still very much an "apprentice" in this line of work.

In other words, the Munchkin Man is still learning and has much to learn.

This is why the Munchkin Man is so deeply appreciative of the good advice you have to offer.

After the Munchkin Man gains some additional experience, the Munchkin Man might be asking you to write a letter of reference for him someday.

Thanks again!

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
so MM... have you any Math student(s) that actually went on to become Mathematicians?

cuz that's how i take the measure of any Mentor...

______

Hi Mr. Glassman!

You have asked a most excellent question.

The Munchkin Man has talked to a number of his former students who went on to major in mathematics in college.

Therefore, it is a reasonable assumption that a number of them became gainfully employed in mathematics related careers.

The Munchkin Man has never performed any formal longitudinal studies in regard to the career selections of his former students.

On the other hand, the Munchkin Man can state with absolute certainty that a number of his former students are incarcerated in the city jail and the state penitentiary.

Many years ago the Munchkin Man flunked a student who was taking 8th grade "repeat" mathematics in summer school.

This student threatened to kill the Munchkin Man.

He didn't get that chance.

He killed somebody else instead and is now serving life in prison.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
You are a wanna bee slippery critic, but passing gas is about the best utterances you manage.

__________________

Dear Mr. Bdgee:

The Munchkin Man has finally figured out your problem.

It is a problem which goes far beyond your problem with authority.

It is a problem which was right under the Munchkin Man's nose along.

The Munchkin Man should have noticed it sooner.

Your problem is..........

You are jealous of the Munchkin Man.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
hmmmm.. Munch, why do you say bdgee has a problem with authority?

people used to say that about me too...

but as i matured? i realised they were wrong...

i have no problem with true authority, i do have a problem with misused,abused and misplaced authority and especially with undeserved authority...

as a matter of act when i (rarely)come across authentic authority i am very pleased...
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
hmmmm.. Munch, why do you say bdgee has a problem with authority?

____________________

Well............

Whenever the Munchkin Man tries to discuss the virtues and advantages of memorizing and following a protocol of sequential steps in order to learn and master a given mathematics algorithm, Mr. Bdgee tends to go into a very angry rant by equating this approach with "following orders."

He also peppers his diatribes with such phrases as:

"mindless automatons"

"fascist states"

And many others.

The Munchkin Man is surprised that he hasn't called the Munchkin Man a "Nazi" yet.

It is this type of reaction which leads the Munchkin Man to the conclusion that Mr. Bdgee has a problem with authority.

Try to learn how to solve a long division problem with pencil and paper without "following the orders" which are necessary to solve it.

The Munchkin Man has never believed in the "Johnny will learn how to read when he is ready" approach to the teaching of reading.

Likewise, there are mathematics teachers who have been brainwashed by their college professors into letting students "discover their own algorithms" instead of teaching them directly.

The Munchkin Man has never believed in that either.

The Munchkin Man has dedicated his life to opposing and fighting this philosophy of mathematics instruction.

The good news is that there is a rising groundswell of support for the Munchkin Man's philosophy of teaching.

Indeed, the pendulum is beginning to swing back into the "right" direction.

Here are just a few of the organizations and their web sites that embrace and support the Munchkin Man's philosophy of teaching:

Mathematically Correct: 2 + 2 = 4
http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/

TeachMath.net
http://www.teachmath.net/index.html?home=ContentPage.html#text

NYC HOLD On Mathematics Education Reform
http://www.nychold.com/

Association For Direct Instruction
http://www.adihome.org/phpshop/members.php

National Institute For Direct Instruction
http://www.nifdi.org/

The Core Knowledge Foundation
http://coreknowledge.org/CK/
By the way, Mr. William H. Bennett, who served as Secretary of Education from 1985 to 1988 under President Ronald Reagan, has made some tremendous contributions to the Core Knowledge Foundation.

The Munchkin Man can go on and on.

If you are willing to take the time to tour through these web sites, you will begin to understand the type of blood which runs through the Munchkin Man's veins.

Unfortunately, Mr. Bdgee has already refused to take a look at any of the links the Munchkin Man has given him.

This is his loss.

Good luck to you.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Try to learn how to solve a long division problem with pencil and paper without "following the orders" which are necessary to solve it.

it's not that hard even without pencil and paper......

of course i don't "do it in my head" if i need the exact numbers, but i can write down a few notes to get the exact answer without writing down the question...
i bet you'd find many traders here do it many time time a day in their heads without even "stressing"...


a fundamentally complete understanding of theory leads to mastery of the art...

repittition is truly torture to some of us....
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
Aye to that,

I've never considered myself a math head (see story above) but division/multiplication/percentages/what have you...that's no problem.

Just gotta twist the numbers some.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Just gotta twist the numbers some.


thats' the easiest way to describe what i do too...

avg. up a little on one, avg down a little on the other, et voila... ez to get it close.... just don't avg to far either way...
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
MM's concern with me not accepting athority is all purely a problem with me not accepting him as an authority.

I suppose it is like the Cathbolic Church's concern with Kepler's insistance that they, the Church, was twisting reality and had not the facts to support their claim to authority and their insistance that the sun traversed about the Earth.

(Should I have spoken only using third person, so that MM might equate that with authority?)

I think no one needs his biblical acceptance of a failed approach to teaching and it would belie my whole professional work to not point out the damage done by his kind of supposed "teaching".
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
a fundamentally complete understanding of theory leads to mastery of the art...

_____

Greetings Mr. Glassman:

The Munchkin Man respectfully disagrees with your statement above.

Understanding the theory which underlies a given mathematical process does not guarantee the attainment of a satisfactory level of skill or proficiency in the execution of that process.

One liberal mathematics education professor once told the Munchkin Man:

"Just teach the kids the 'gist' of it and they'll be okay."

It doesn't work that way.

The vast majority of the kids will not be okay.

Understanding the theory behind a given mathematical process is fine and dandy as far as it goes.

But it's not enough.

Students need to learn and master the sequential steps which are self-contained within that mathematical process.

For the vast majority of students, the successful achievement of this goal requires drill and practice, more drill and practice, and even more drill and practice.

As Walter Cronkite used to say:

"And that's the way it is."

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
repittition is truly torture to some of us....

_____

The Munchkin Man agrees with you.

Indeed, repetition can feel like torture.

Once upon a time, the Munchkin Man was into lifting weights.

The Munchkin Man has firsthand experience of the agony and torture that is felt from getting in those last few "reps" in order to complete his set.

It was all this repetition and torture which strengthened the Munchkin Man's physical muscles.

Likewise, the vast majority of students need the repetition and "torture" of practicing their mathemtical operations, algorithms, and procedures.

That's how they develop and strengthen their math muscles.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Try to learn how to solve a long division problem with pencil and paper without "following the orders" which are necessary to solve it.

it's not that hard even without pencil and paper......

of course i don't "do it in my head" if i need the exact numbers, but i can write down a few notes to get the exact answer without writing down the question...
i bet you'd find many traders here do it many time time a day in their heads without even "stressing"...



_____

The Munchkin Man has no doubt that you possess this skill.

The Munchkin Man has no doubt that many traders possess this skill.

However, the Munchkin Man's students did not consist of any "traders."

The Munchkin Man never taught adult education.

Instead, the Munchkin Man taught middle school and junior high school aged kids.

Many of them would come into the Munchkin Man's mathematics class without ever having learned their multiplication tables.

Many of them would come into the Munchkin Man's classroom having never mastered the algorithms of subtraction and division.

A lot of them were even still counting on their fingers.

What these kids needed were the basics.

The basics are what the Munchkin Man taught them.

The basics really do come first.

Learning the basics requires "following orders", to borrow Mr. Bdgee's words.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Just gotta twist the numbers some.


thats' the easiest way to describe what i do too...

avg. up a little on one, avg down a little on the other, et voila... ez to get it close.... just don't avg to far either way...

_____

There is a name for the procedure which you have just described.

It is called estimation.

There is nothing wrong with estimation.

There is a time and a place for estimation.

The Munchkin Man can see how it could be a very valuable tool for traders.

It can help you determine if the exact answer you have just worked out is "reasonable."

It can come in handy in situations when an exact answer is not always needed in a limited period of time.

The Munchkin Man even used to teach the skill of estimation in those contexts and settings where it is appropriate.

On the other hand, the Munchkin Man believes that estimation is given far too much time and exposure in today's elementary and middle school curriculums.

Many of today's mathematics textbooks on the elementary and middle school level devote entire chapters to estimation.

This is ridiculous.

Estimation is no substitute for deriving the exact answer.

The liberal educrats love the subject of estimation.

It allows many kids to pass mathematics who would be unable to do so if exact answers were required more often.

This gives kids a false and phony sense of self-esteem.

To many liberal educrats, self-esteem is what it is all about.

The exact answer is always a superior answer to one which is merely estimated.

The exact answer has a higher standard of correctness than one which is merely estimated.

The day will come when the Munchkin Man will be writing his own mathematics textbooks. When he does so, the Munchkin Man is only going to devote a cursory page or two on the subject of estimation at the very end of a limited number of selected chapters.

The excessive emphasis which is given to the subject of estimation today is a reflection of the dumbed down standards which have lowered the performance standards of American students in comparison to students from other countries.

Mr. Bdgee would do well to read the latest TIMMS Report.

The Munchkin Man would otherwise be glad to provide a link.

However, Mr. Bdgee has rejected every single link the Munchkin Man has given him thus far.

Only the sands of time will take care of those who keep their heads buried into the sand.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by Munchkin Man on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:


I think no one needs his biblical acceptance of a failed approach to teaching and it would belie my whole professional work to not point out the damage done by his kind of supposed "teaching".

_____

To Mr. Bdgee:

You have provided no evidence to support your claim that the Munchkin Man's teaching style is a "failed approach to teaching."

You have provided no evidence to support your claim of "damage" resulting from the Munchkin Man's personal orientation to the teaching of mathematics.

All you have provided is a convoluted hodgepodge of hysterical and paranoid delusions and obsessions, derived from the cognitive malfunctions of your mind, exemplified by the slippery slope fallacies to which you cling, and which you like to express with your chronic and excessive histrionics and hyperbole.

On the other hand, there is considerable evidence that the style of teaching which you support is a failed approach which has inflicted tremendous damage to the performance levels of American students nationwide for many years.

The Munchkin Man has provided you with the links which show you this evidence.

It is not the Munchkin Man's fault if you refuse to read them.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I have, indeed, provided "... evidence to support your claim that the Munchkin Man's teaching style is a "failed approach to teaching." You ignore it and come back with more cut and past drivel from the Ann Rand school of dictatoral fascism that enlivens little minded people with no actual talent or record of success.

You are an egotistical jerk and phusical coward bullying helpless children to get even with the beach bum that kicked sand in yout face. Worse than that, you "brag" about it!

Teaching is not a game the teacher plays so as to prove to the students he has power and authority.

You are a sicko wanna-be writer without the ability to communicate, thriving on pill popping and abusing the eager minds of children to boost your ego.

The "art" of writing lies mainly in making the reader comfortable in reaching the understnading of point or points the writer wishes to convey, NOT in the third person.
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
If the Munch is mostly unhappy about the dumbing down of teaching math in junior high...

I guess I can understand that.

We done a lot of dumbing down at the museum on the premise that it makes us more accessible (feeling-wise) to a broader section of the population.

I.E. Our Paleontology Gallery has been called Dinosaurs and Fossils for the last five years since everyone asks where the Dinosaurs are.

Despite this renaming, few understand that there is a difference between Dinosaurs and Fossils and now fewer understand what Paleontology is. LOL

I don't like dumbing down. It provides an atmosphere where wrong information is less likely to be corrected.

That said...There has to be room to make mistakes or growth doesn't happen. You stand to a strict "code" and you shut folks off. Seen it happen many times.

There is a middle ground where mistakes can be made and correct information can be disseminated without causing a perceived intelligence gap. It is a fine line though.

It is good to remember that whomever you are you do not know everything. Even what you think you do know is often "incorrect."

As an example (I have used this before) how many of you when you think of the Orangutang, know that I have misspelled the word? It is Orangutan...there is no G at the end of the word and it not pronounced with a G at the end of the word. If you have every written or pronounced it with a G...you failed.

Now...what's more important...that you learned something here? Or that I have been able to highlight your ignorance?

BF
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Munchie... i taught the times tables at home to my kids starting at kintergarten..
it took no time at all...

it's just memorization...

did you ever bother to tell your kids that when they go to catch a ball that they are performing very high level mathematics, and that all you are really doing is teaching them how to describe it accurately on paper?
 
Posted by NaturalResources on :
 
School bullying activist: I know the terror Phoebe felt

quote:
Once again, the nation is outraged that school bullying has claimed another victim. As news spread about the indictment of nine teens who are accused of relentlessly bullying 15-year-old Phoebe Prince to suicide this year, parents everywhere asked: "How could this have happened? Where were the adults?"

I couldn't help but wonder why it always takes a tragedy to get the world's attention. The suffering of millions of students all across America, some of whom are being bullied as badly as Phoebe and who have been crying out for help day after day, semester after semester, should be enough. Why are their voices not heard? What message are we sending these lonely, frustrated kids: that they might as well suffer in silence, because no one's going to take notice unless someone ends up dead?

Full Text At:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/31/blanco.phoebe.bullying/?hpt=C1

It's good to know that someone out there is still fighting for the underdogs =P
 
Posted by Upside on :
 
Reading this thread brought back some fond memories of the fighting that used to go on here.

Just in case anyone was wondering, he's still alive and apparently battling the same issues.

http://forums.eog.com/members/munchkin-man.html
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
i wonder why he left?
 
Posted by Highwaychild on :
 
It was pretty funny when he used to use bdgee...lol

bdgee was The Munchkin Man's BE-OCH!
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i wonder why he left?

He couldna pull the wool here...

Plus, Up's job offer was pretty telling.
 
Posted by NR on :
 
To Bully or Not to Bully: Using Shakespeare in Schools to Address Violence

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/american-graduate/jan-june13/shakespeare_04-03.ht ml

"The thing about -- that Shakespeare does so well is, he always shows the moment of choice that these characters had. They could have gone that way or they could have gone this way. And if you keep going this way, this is what eventually happens."
 
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
 
what ever happened to the munchkin man?
 
Posted by buckstalker on :
 
Last I heard...

Munchie and bdgee were gettin hitched, moving to the burbs, and raising a bunch of little self absorbed morons...
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
they both got parts in the new OZ movie.

bdgee is of course the Wizard himself and well, Munchie is mayor of some little hamlet..
 
Posted by NR on :
 
Bdgee was ok if you didn't talk politics; MM on the other hand..... [BadOne]

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=112760&newpost=1660004&star t=50

Anyway, this was one of my better threads on Allstocks, and I had recently read the article about the schools using Shakespeare to address bullying/violence in schools so I thought I would post the article to it. Also, it was nice to re-read the thread and laugh about the days when MM roamed the Off-topic section stirring up hornet's nests...
 
Posted by NR on :
 
Parents say boy committed suicide after embarrassing video went viral

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/parents-say-boy-committed-suicide-after-embarrassing -video-went-viral/
 


© 1997 - 2013 Allstocks.com. All rights reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2