This is topic Jesus: Tales from the Crypt in forum Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk at Allstocks.com's Bulletin Board.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.allstocks.com/stockmessageboard/ubb/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/14/t/003063.html

Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Jesus: Tales from the Crypt

Brace yourself. James Cameron, the man who brought you 'The Titanic' is back with another blockbuster. This time, the ship he's sinking is Christianity.

In a new documentary, Producer Cameron and his director, Simcha Jacobovici, make the starting claim that Jesus wasn't resurrected --the cornerstone of Christian faith-- and that his burial cave was discovered near Jerusalem. And, get this, Jesus sired a son with Mary Magdelene.

No, it's not a re-make of "The Da Vinci Codes'. It's supposed to be true.

Let's go back 27 years, when Israeli construction workers were gouging out the foundations for a new building in the industrial park in the Talpiyot, a Jerusalem suburb. of Jerusalem. The earth gave way, revealing a 2,000 year old cave with 10 stone caskets. Archologists were summoned, and the stone caskets carted away for examination. It took 20 years for experts to decipher the names on the ten tombs. They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua.
Israel's prominent archeologist Professor Amos Kloner didn't associate the crypt with the New Testament Jesus. His father, after all, was a humble carpenter who couldn't afford a luxury crypt for his family. And all were common Jewish names.

There was also this little inconvenience that a few miles away, in the old city of Jerusalem, Christians for centuries had been worshipping the empty tomb of Christ at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Christ's resurrection, after all, is the main foundation of the faith, proof that a boy born to a carpenter's wife in a manger is the Son of God.

But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.

Ever the showman, (Why does this remind me of the impresario in another movie,"King Kong", whose hubris blinds him to the dangers of an angry and very large ape?) Cameron is holding a New York press conference on Monday at which he will reveal three coffins, supposedly those of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. News about the film, which will be shown soon on Discovery Channel, Britain's Channel 4, Canada's Vision, and Israel's Channel 8, has been a hot b1og topic in the Middle East (check out a personal favorite: Israelity Bites) Here in the Holy Land, Biblical Archeology is a dangerous profession. This 90-minute documentary is bound to outrage Christians and stir up a titanic debate between believers and skeptics. Stay tuned.

--Tim McGirk/Jerusalem

Source
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
This is huge news on all the networks today...
 
Posted by trade04 on :
 
umm i thought it was common sense that he didnt resurrect, we needed someone to prove this? rotfl & lol...i dont knwo about everyone else, but this religion thing is getting ridiculous..
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Jesus Christ!
 
Posted by turbokid on :
 
i've said it before.. as civilization advances more and more of the "story" will become impossible.
 
Posted by Zeker on :
 
John the Baptist- now that was a real man's man.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
 -
More pics at: JesusOfTheWeek.com
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by trade04:
umm i thought it was common sense that he didnt resurrect, we needed someone to prove this? rotfl & lol...i dont knwo about everyone else, but this religion thing is getting ridiculous..

That is YOUR opinion.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Andrew. Please provide physical evidence that proves Jesus rose from the dead.

Can't do it? Then it's only your opinion as well.
 
Posted by trade04 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeker:
John the Baptist- now that was a real man's man.

Yeah he baptized Jesus right?
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
I dont see why the "non-believers" have to continuously point at scientific evidence to debunk any beliefs that the religious may have. Its almost like a jealousy thing. Science is begining to sprout their own form of radicals. Scientologists lol!!! Maybe science will someday be able to figure it out on paper and stop ridiculing the religiously devout. Remember the days when scientists labeled Colombus and even other scientists like Galileo as being crazy. Or even Thomas Edison on Nikola Teslas work. Who later on his death-bed admitted to being intimidated by him.

Maybe science is just intimidated? Maybe Cameron is just looking for a FAT CHECK by exploiting the largest religion in the world? Maybe he'll grow some nuts and point his camera at the history of the Prophet Mohammad? DOUBT IT!
 
Posted by trade04 on :
 
I think It's just unlrealistic from a biological standpoint
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
And I think they'll tell you thats what makes it devine
 
Posted by trade04 on :
 
And I say i dont dismiss the possibility of a true God. out of all the religions worldwide i truly believe none of them have it right, and i dont believe anyone has it right...The answer to that will never be found imo..so why waste time in your life to pursue something unrealistic, and speculative..
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
And I don't see why "believers" scoff at, and demand absolute proof from, scientists when they can provide absolutely no proof to support their own ludicrous claims other than "it's in the Bible so it must be true!"

quote:
Originally posted by rimasco:
I dont see why the "non-believers" have to continuously point at scientific evidence to debunk any beliefs that the religious may have.


 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
I agree..... But I think that some people need it to be at peace with themselves....to also keep some kind of order....unless youd rather see a godless world? You think its bad now?
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
I'm all for peaceful religions that don't attempt to convert, dominate or demean others who don't wish to share their beliefs or values.

Can you recommend one?
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Buddahism?
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Yes, Buddhism is a pretty good one! You'd be hard-pressed to find them starting wars of conquest, advocating fascism or attending Republican Prayer Breakfasts.
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
.......or crashing campaign speeches and getting violent at peace rallies
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Government + Religion = Fascism

Simple, really.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Does this describe a country near you?
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
It does describe a movie I recently seen "V for Vendetta"
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
 -
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Gord....,

The same list of evils is described in Orwell's "1984", plus a couple of others, like the need for an undefined and countryless enemy that only Big Brother is capable of twarting.

For the last six years, I have been watching, one by one, the Administration tick off the Orwellian requirements for completely enslaving a population. I've even considered that they may have started of by plagerizing the book with a list of those requirements and a set of plans and timetable to achieve each element on the list.

quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


 
Posted by farmgirl on :
 
I believe that there are a lot of people out there that need to believe in something. I thing that believing in something is what keeps some people sane. Some off drugs or alcohol. Some just out of trouble. I do not see the harm in that. I also do not see the need to crush there beliefs. I personal am a practicing catholic. Does that mean I agree with everything they teach. NO Does that mean I encourage others to join my faith. NO I believe that there is a different right for everyone and that people that are not harming themselves or others in their beliefs should be left alone. What if they are right and there is a GOD? It is a good thing they lived the way they did. What if we are wrong and there is not a God or Jesus or Allah or who ever? Then this was a more peaceful world to live in because people thought there was.
 
Posted by jordanreed on :
 
many people have died in the name of god..is this world more peaceful??
 
Posted by farmgirl on :
 
For the MOST part yes. At some times NO
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
We don't know how peaceful it would be without religion because there have always been followers and there always will be.

We can't even agree on which God is the real one!
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
Zeus!
 
Posted by jordanreed on :
 
I've always liked Ra..

The great Egyptian empire prospered by and thus worshipped the source of energy that gave life to their people. The design of Solar Navigator's figure head is partly inspired by their beautiful Queen, Cleopatra, while drawing modern influences from the faces of today.



Ra was regarded as the creator of everything, the god of the sun. Ra is usually represented with the body of a man and the head of a hawk, holding an ankh & sceptre. The chief location of Ra worship was Heliopolis (a Greek word meaning city of the sun).
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
I think its safe to say we all seen "Stargay"
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
Gordon.....Everyone says Jesus was perfect...but I disagree, He created you. [Razz]

That was a joke. I know what you are saying, No I have no physical proof that he existed, as you have no proof that he did'nt.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
I also have no proof that the world wasn't ever completely covered in Jello pudding.
 
Posted by ruthie on :
 
We know that at that time period the name Jesus (Yeshua) was an extremely common name and over 30% of women were named Mary. It is so strange that anyone would jump to the conclusion that this was the Jesus of the Bible. Talk about jumping to a crazy assumption. This takes the cake...
 
Posted by jordanreed on :
 
its even crazier to assume that a man can be conceived without his supposed parents having sex..or that he could be the son of someones thought process...or that an intelligent being could even believe something like that. its a crazy world,huh.
 
Posted by Hannibull on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
I also have no proof that the world wasn't ever completely covered in Jello pudding.

I lol'ed! A+++ comeback
and so true... the argument that he can't be disproved isn't really an argument
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
its even crazier to assume that a man can be conceived without his supposed parents having sex..or that he could be the son of someones thought process...or that an intelligent being could even believe something like that. its a crazy world,huh.

No, it isn't really too hard to believe quite obviously impossible things.

Take Cubs fans, for example.
 
Posted by trade04 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by farmgirl:
[QB] I also do not see the need to crush there beliefs. I personal am a practicing catholic. Does that mean I agree with everything they teach. NO Does that mean I encourage others to join my faith. NO I believe that there is a different right for everyone and that people that are not harming themselves or others in their beliefs should be left alone.

im gonna chime in here...I've dated a couple jesus freaks in the past and ill tell you one thing..they will try to make u feel like sh!t for not worshipping jesus....They put u on a guilt trip, and try to integrate u into their faith, and when you just establish thats its not for you, its not what u believe, its grounds for breaking up. I believe in a higher power, but none specifically. I understand you are one of the many religious people that dont try to force their beliefs on others, unfortunately there ARE people like that, and they travel in cults...have u seen these youth group things? with christian rock and what not..its so weird to me. this one time i stepped outside a theatre to smoke a cigarette and there was a group of evangelicals or w/e theyre called crawling all over the front of the place...this guy tried to talk to me (2nd member to approach me) and i stopped him half way through his sentence and said i dont believe in jesus (i dont not doubt at all that he existed at one point, but i dont believe in him in the spirtual sense) and i walked away to a bench to continue my cig break....
and GUESS WHAT this guy does...he comes over and sits next to me! and expresses how i "look" like i could really find something in jesus and thats its not to late (basically inferring that im going to hell for not believing).. i stood up right away i get up and i holler GET THE f** away from me....

that guys behavior was uncalled for, i could not believe i was stalked like that so aggressively by these people...u shouldve seen how they looked at all of us..like we were all going to hell or something


I believe we need to live in a realist society, and accept that this life may be it...if everyone understood that we would all try to make it a wonderful and happy life for everyone to enjoy..instead u have religious wars throughout history taking place..and yet nothing ever changes...religion i believe was first created for order...now that we have it i think we should disseminate it =)

in an ideal world id like to believe everyone has one common faith...that there IS SOME higher power out there, but we need to accept that we may never know the truth to it..only then can people stop wasting their lives with religion and use that time to do something for humanity..

(Drops Mic)
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
 -
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hannibull:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
I also have no proof that the world wasn't ever completely covered in Jello pudding.

I lol'ed! A+++ comeback
and so true... the argument that he can't be disproved isn't really an argument

I can prove that jelly pudding never covered the earth. Bill Cosby was not born yet. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Which came first, the Cosby or the Pudding?
 
Posted by farmgirl on :
 
I think like anything can be taken to far. I am glad that I have something to believe in and to teach my children. Once I am dead I will know if I am right or wrong. I am hoping I am right. As for Jesus freaks some people carry things to far. If you have to hound and threaten people to believe what you believe you are going to far. I have asked peoples opinions but I hope I have never tried to push mine.
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
Keep your Faith farmgirl. I believed Jesus died for my sins. Other people dont believe this. I can only answer for my own life. I am not ashamed to be a Christian. Others are ashamed that I AM a Christian. SOOOOOOOO WHAAAAAAAAAAT.

LOL.....I dont push religion it down their throats. I used to try to shove religion down peoples throats. Now.....If they want to hear it I will tell them my Christian beliefs. If they dont ask to here it or verbally refuse to hear I dont push the issue. See...So now someone will put all this in Quotes and have something evil to say or make fun of my beliefs. You can bet on it.
 
Posted by farmgirl on :
 
I agree with you. I will keep my faith and that is why we have free will. The free will to choice to believe or not believe. It won't be the first time someone disagreed with something I have said.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
You two have the right idea. However those that try to force their religious beliefs on others, through politics, legislation, or just plain badgering, poison the whole notion of Christianity for many.

Further, the separation of church and state is crucial.
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I am wondering, if we had no real proof of the burials of these people?

Then in one of those underground "vaults" they keep finding under Boston, they find a collection of caskets with little but bones left inthem.

It was noticed that on one of the caskets was the solitary inscription, "John Adams", on another it has, "Abigale, wife of John", a third is marked "Sam Adams, cousin to John" and the fourth, "John Q, Adams, son of John".

Then, an anthropologist suggest the possibility that this evidence could be considered showing that this "vault" is a family chamber for the honored and famous Adams family of our Country's historical beginings.

Now, all that being placed as a preface, here is my wonder:

How many that believe in the influence and character of John Adams will voice claims that these names were all very common in that time and place and there is not chance this is them, then further to cast aspersions athe those who found or thouse who thought these could be the actual remains of one of our heros?
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
Spin it how you will....none of us will know 100% until after we die. So that being known,I am not taking any chances. If there is nothing to any of it.....then I have nothing to lose after I die. I respect you for questioning the "So Called" discovery, but I believe what I believe and I am cool with what you may think or wish to believe. No one can change my mind as no one can change yours.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
So you admit you're in it for your own gain. Fair enough.
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
Yes I am in it for me. Everyone has free will. The only mind that can change is one that is willing to change. I wish everyone believed like I believe. But they dont and thats their decision. I am responsible for my actions and the way I live my life...just as everyone else is responsible for their own life.

Any who .....This subject and politics always goes in circles and everyone leaves when the same belief they started with. (usually)
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
excuse my grammar. Long day.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Granted. That's true with most arguments, I suppose.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bennett:
Granted. That's true with most arguments, I suppose.

even altruists are in it for themselves GB... Andrew your honesty is..... refreshing, yeah, refreshing....
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I've never been able to accept claims by people that free will and Calvinism can or should co-exist in a person.

They are, after all, totally disparate and, by design, particularly, with respect to religious matters that are non-Catholic, antagonistic.

I point out that the assumption that free will and Calvanism can co-exist in a mind, with or without religious concern on a question, is logically absurd.

I can and will grant that your religion is of your own free will, free from influence of any other entity and any reason or basis for it is not required.

And I can accept the belief that you being religious is part of God's "plan",

But not the two at one time, because it is impossible.

To suggest that I waver on that point is the same to me as me suggesting that you ignore your religion on some matter.

But, I have seldom if ever found a religious person that was willing to grant me that respect.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
bdgee, you can't break Gods laws.... all the rest are human constructs....
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Indeed, that is clear. glass...!

So, which is God's law?

Have I the will to choose my belief or was Calvin right and I am only living out what was preordained?

I must confess that I find it not simply difficult to believe false things I have been witness to and I find the idea that I am not the author of my own errors to be degrading.
 
Posted by trade04 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by andrew:
Spin it how you will....none of us will know 100% until after we die. So that being known,I am not taking any chances. If there is nothing to any of it.....then I have nothing to lose after I die. I respect you for questioning the "So Called" discovery, but I believe what I believe and I am cool with what you may think or wish to believe. No one can change my mind as no one can change yours.

...ask yourself this if everyone that dies goes to heaven...what the hell is going on there? is it like a big life after party? lol...it just seems silly
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
If all the self-righteous, bloated prigs in politics and the media who call themselves "Christians" are really going to Heaven, I'll gladly hang out with the outcasts in Hell, thank you very much.
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
whatever helps you sleep at night....for some it might be "punching the bishop" for others its simply a clear conscience.

How the conscience is developed is a whole other story....so I keep it simple : dont do to others what you would not want done to you. Now is that Godly enough or what?
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Punching the bishop? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by andrew on :
 
Everone has the right to believe whatever they wish. I am not pushing the issue. Like I said this issue and politics never go anywhere but in circles.

As you all may know I did PUSH religion at everyone at one time and I did Push the Republican party. I called some you some hateful things, but now I have found out that life is SOOOOO short for all that garbage. Any way I respect all of your opinions. (Sounds kinda corny does'nt it?)
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
corny? nope...
we have witnessed one of the largest, most (short-term) successful propaganda campaigns ever waged Andrew...

faith, IMO, should not be trifled with or exploited, but it often is and it will be again..
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
I agree... in part.

There's faith, which should not be trifled with or exploited...

 -


And then there's "faith" which is destroying our country and civil rights by adhering to and penetrating our government and society like a billion leeches. This type of "faith" deserves all the trifling, mocking, shame and criminal indictments it has coming.

 -
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Yes, every confidence man is full of faith that he can cheat you out of whatever he can and it is his right.

It takes confidence to be successful, whether it be playing second base or counting the collection plate and slipping the money into you own account.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
GB? i think this guy is a more appropriate figure of faith exploitation:

 -

his exploitation of mailing lists obtained from Churches will be legendary....
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
I find it very amusing that Rove, the architect of Bush's political life, is gay.
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Rove is not gay! Isnt he married?

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Posted by urnso77 on :
 
Their hatred is blind rimasco. They will say anything, even if it includes a STOCK MARKET forum.
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
snicker
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by urnso77:
Their hatred is blind rimasco. They will say anything, even if it includes a STOCK MARKET forum.

yawn, blind? i have no clue, nor could i care less if Rove is gay...


ROVE has however engineered the downfall of the GOP...
Rove has in fact, made a mockery of True Conservatism in America by "pushing" Bush as a true conservative.. Bush is as liberal as Bill Clinton...

Rove started this back in '99 in South Carolina when he started "push polling" on McCain, asking people how they would feel about him if he had an illegitimate child with a black woman... which is kinda funny cuz Strom Thurmon REALLY DID...

read up on him... he's the snake in the GOP sleeping bag...
he's hated in the GOP (by people that really know all his "dirty tricks") almost as much as he is in the Dems
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
So true, glass.....so true....
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
every time i see a picture of Rove? i hear this Georgia mountain bubba sayin' "ahh betchou cayn skweel lak a pig caintcha? weyell boy?"
 
Posted by rimasco on :
 
Buddah boy has fasted for six months!!!! sombody get that kid a burger

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/21/wbuddha21.xml&sS heet=/portal/2005/11/21/ixportal.html
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
every time i see a picture of Rove? i hear this Georgia mountain bubba sayin' "ahh betchou cayn skweel lak a pig caintcha? weyell boy?"

Why not?

You do know he comes fromn that same Alabama/Georgia range of hills where the book and movie were placed.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
yes i did...
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
he he he he


Ya got 'im nailed!
 
Posted by trade04 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
every time i see a picture of Rove? i hear this Georgia mountain bubba sayin' "ahh betchou cayn skweel lak a pig caintcha? weyell boy?"

ur pretty good at that...i read it like 3 times lol..would be funny if someone typed like that on these forums
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I don't hate the t_rd. But just the mention of him and his ideas roils my stomach.


Somewhere, for the first time since how many years since he was in office, Milard Filmore is setting not feeling like everybody in creation and most in Heaven and Hell think he was the worst of all.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by trade04:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
every time i see a picture of Rove? i hear this Georgia mountain bubba sayin' "ahh betchou cayn skweel lak a pig caintcha? weyell boy?"

ur pretty good at that...i read it like 3 times lol..would be funny if someone typed like that on these forums
sheesh mayyan, ah leyive eyin de meyissesseeppee dayelta...
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Ya, but he be a domyankee Wastonian, Ah kahrpit baggarh, ya no.
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
true bdgee, but i was raised there by people from other places....
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Mars?

Venus?

Balwasteron?

North Umbria?
 
Posted by glassman on :
 
LOL bdgee. yanks and confederates both....
 
Posted by MAGICK on :
 
There may be no proof, but one has to wonder.


Why did his disciples forsake him (they would of had to else they wouldn't have lived, they would have been crucified with him) only to turn around and preach everywhere about him?

Paul's sudden turnaround alone gives one pause.

His "job" was to hunt down Christians, he forsook that job though it meant his life.
His death by decapitation is an historical fact.

One has to come to the conclusion that the apostles had to have witnessed SOMETHING in order for them to gain such bravery and disregard for their very lives any longer.

Now what would make YOU forsake your very life?
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
All that being said, I wonder what Charles Manson's followers witnessed that made them so loyal?

I could point to a few others that had avid followings too, like Adolph and El Duce.
 
Posted by MAGICK on :
 
quote:
All that being said, I wonder what Charles Manson's followers witnessed that made them so loyal?
A whole lotta LSD


Adolph?

Wouldn't that be like asking "What makes America's troops so loyal to Bush?"


El Duce?

"There are four sacraments in the Church of El Duce : Sex, Porno, Booze, and Pot"

There will always be followers in that kinda church.


I would add, none of these gave a single enlightening statement his entire life, which only goes to prove there are many lost souls out there. All of these advocated killing with the possible exception of El Duce which I gladly know little about, but the "four sacraments" say enough.

None fulfilled hundreds of prophecies either which came thousands of years before they were born over which he had no control over. None performed any miracles. None cured anybody of anything or even made the attempt.

How does anyone know he was who he said he was?

Ya don't. That's why it's a matter of faith.
See Pascal's "The Wager"
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

[Roll Eyes]

File under: Historical Fiction
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
I've never been able to accept claims by people that free will and Calvinism can or should co-exist in a person.

They are, after all, totally disparate and, by design, particularly, with respect to religious matters that are non-Catholic, antagonistic.

I point out that the assumption that free will and Calvanism can co-exist in a mind, with or without religious concern on a question, is logically absurd.

I can and will grant that your religion is of your own free will, free from influence of any other entity and any reason or basis for it is not required.

And I can accept the belief that you being religious is part of God's "plan",

But not the two at one time, because it is impossible.

To suggest that I waver on that point is the same to me as me suggesting that you ignore your religion on some matter.

But, I have seldom if ever found a religious person that was willing to grant me that respect.

Bdgee,

I tend to agree with you but for the sake of nothing to do on a Saturday night I'll play devils advocate for a moment.

If you were to approach a Calvinist about the seemingly impossible co-existence of Free Will and Predestination they would likely say this:

God is in all things and created all things. Time is a thing that is measured by the instruments that God created such as the Sun and the orbit of the Earth etc.. As these things were created by God then it stands to logic that God exists both inside and outside time.

As God exists inside time and does not influence directly our decisions we have free will. As God exists outside time he can look forward and see the results of our decisions, thereby we have predestination. As WE can not exist outside time and look forward Free Will and Predestination can indeed co-exist.

My main problem with predestination (other than some theological and philosophical stuff I don't really want to get into) is the same as my problem with the church as a whole.

Predestination is used by believers to separate themselves from the world. When a family who believes in predestination has a young member who is misbehaving...that person has demons to conquer. When someone they don't know enters their lives for a moment with pain/suffering/or hate...it was predestined. It was predestined is all the answer that is needed to shut the door and think no more about that person or problem. It gives an excuse to think less of those you don't know and to keep your generosity of spirit which Christ commands close to the comfort zone. Or if they do go outside their comfort zone it is with pessimism and classism.
It affords the wealthy to think of themselves as favored by God when wealth is "supposed" to have nothing to do with the Christian religion.

This mode of thought will not solve problems such as homelessness. It might force the homeless from the streets but it will not solve the problems that some of our neighbors do not have the resources, support, or capabilities to take care of themselves and their families. Such a solution would have to come from a mission with much more intimate ties to those around us. I use this issue as my example because helping and loving our brother is listed as the top priority of any Christian servant. Same holds true in many other areas of life and within the religion as well.

How many people have been driven away from the church and the religion by those who make up its body? More than those who have been driven away by the basic tenants of faith for sure.
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
You make many excellent points, Big.
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
"I would add, none of these gave a single enlightening statement his entire life, which only goes to prove there are many lost souls out there. All of these advocated killing with the possible exception of El Duce which I gladly know little about, but the "four sacraments" say enough.

None fulfilled hundreds of prophecies either which came thousands of years before they were born over which he had no control over. None performed any miracles. None cured anybody of anything or even made the attempt.

How does anyone know he was who he said he was?

Ya don't. That's why it's a matter of faith.
See Pascal's "The Wager""

If you were one of the faithful (I shouldn't put that in past tense, as the world is still blessed(?) with them), you would know that Adolph made many "enlightening statements" during his time and many of his prophecies are yet to unfold. To them he performed mericals and, for a time, saved the world for the right people. Perhaps your particular bias limits your acceptance of Adolph's "enlightening statements" while awarding the status of "enlightening statement" to things said by your own particular favorite, which others see as only the shot in the dark of a babbling egomanaical mind.

I think you may have misplaced my intent about el Duce. He was the fascist leader of Italy in the 1920s and 30s and 40s and was not averse to killing anyone not of his own mind and bent.

I am familiar withmuch of Pascal's works, but am not with the term "Pascal's Wager". Perhaps it has another name, by which I might recognize it?
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
Beedg:

"To put it crudely, we should wager that God exists because it is the best bet."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Then we should also wager that mohamed is a savior and pledge our souls to Zeus, which are equally likely to be a good bet.
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
Pantheism!

lol...

hey, what if all the different "names" are simply the result of glimpsing the elephant through the fence?

Yikes...

Anyhow, I doubt betting replaces faith...
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
To the gambling challenged (i.e., addicks and fools), faith and betting coincide.
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
lol...

we see that everyday... [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
Yep, more than a few go to church "just in case..."

Terrible reason to lose a chance to sleep in. LOL

Either you believe or you don't. And if you believe, that doesn't mean you have to swallow the whole kittenkaboodle that the church is selling.

edit: Don't mean that one to come out Calvinistic. Just saying 'Just in Case' probably ain't gonna get you through those pearlly gates.
 
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
 
Greek and Roman Pantheism does sound pretty cool when you read about it. I get the feeling that the gods got all the hot chicks though. LOL
 
Posted by T e x on :
 
is good to be boss...
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
That's why am aiming to bosshood, don't ya know.....
 
Posted by dinner42 on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
is good to be boss...

[Smile] Hey Tex
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Precisely.

quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Then we should also wager that mohamed is a savior and pledge our souls to Zeus, which are equally likely to be a good bet.


 
Posted by MAGICK on :
 
quote:
If you were one of the faithful (I shouldn't put that in past tense, as the world is still blessed(?) with them), you would know that Adolph made many "enlightening statements" during his time and many of his prophecies are yet to unfold. To them he performed mericals and, for a time, saved the world for the right people. Perhaps your particular bias limits your acceptance of Adolph's "enlightening statements" while awarding the status of "enlightening statement" to things said by your own particular favorite, which others see as only the shot in the dark of a babbling egomanaical mind.
Let me get this straight, your talking about Adolph Hitler right?

Your comparing Jesus to Adolph Hitler?

If that's the case, yes your correct inasmuch as my particular bias would prevent me from seeing Adolph Hitler as the son of God and the Messiah, it would also prevent me from seeing anything that sprung from his lips as enlightened. Maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to accept as enlightened anyone who had a mission of wiping from the face of the earth, an entire race of people, especially when they were civilians living in different countries and not an army of any kind threatening. Not to mention the means whereby he went about it either.

You don't need Pascal's wager to decide whether or not to worship Mohammed, or anyone else for that matter, Pascal made it in reference to God.

But since you brought it up.
Mohammed also killed people. Arabs, christians and Jews. For me, it is automatic exclusion to divinity. Not to mention marrying a six year old. That supposed to be divine too?

"The prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old."Vol. 7:64

Nine? A murderer and a pedophile, yet look at all the people who follow. In this country you would have got a letter in the mail about your new prophet neighbor under Megan's law.


What is with the anger you have towards either Jesus or those who believe in him?

quote:
to things said by your own particular favorite, which others see as only the shot in the dark of a babbling egomanaical mind.
By that I assume your saying that "others" see Jesus this way>?
Never met any of these "others"

Would love to though.

Jesus...the babbling egomaniac.

Such egocentric ramblings as,

"Of mine own self I can do nothing, it is the father which worketh through me."

"Ye are Gods...and ye know it not."

"Love one another, even as I have loved you."

"Do unto others as ye would have others do unto you."

Just who did he think he was anyway?
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
I specifically referred to those who chose to believe and soke of them having faith that he said enlightened things.

Let's not mis-assign things.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
I wonder which wing of Hell they're preparing for the Bush Administration?
 
Posted by bdgee on :
 
Don't know, but two things I now understand.

First, I always thought, up to now, Hell might be the more pleasant choice to spend eternity, considering the quality of people intending to reside elsewhere. However, realizing that the dubya faction is assured entrance, I might need to re-evluate.

Second, whatever are the fundamental rules in hell, there is no doubt the shrubbery has already laid plans to subvert it to where they can assume dictatorial powers.
 
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
 
Maybe if we're really, really, good they won't make us go to either place! [Big Grin]
 


© 1997 - 2019 Allstocks.com. All rights reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2