We need to extract America from Iraq. This war in Iraq is killing our kids, killing the Iraqi, causing great harm to economies of the world and seriously damaging our American reputation as a good country.
Please help to bring our kids back home; too many have died, too many are dying.
Please add your voice in support of this Senate Joint Resolution 36 for our kids, for the kids of Iraq.
Purl Gurl
**
Dear Kiralynne,
It's as simple as this. Most members of Congress, myself included, share some responsibility for getting us into Iraq. We've got to take responsibility for getting us out.
Since April, hundreds of thousands of you have joined me in calling for a change in policy, a change in course -- for Iraq, and for Americans here at home. Now let's turn the volume up higher. Washington needs to hear your voice.
The violence continues to spiral in Iraq. But, instead of a deadline to bring our troops home and put the future of Iraq in the hands of Iraqi leaders, we get half-hearted comments about past mistakes, and cynical political calculation.
Last month, I introduced Senate Joint Resolution 36 which calls for the withdrawal of our combat troops from Iraq by the end of this year. In the next few weeks, I am urging the Senate to take a strong stand on Iraq and pass this Resolution. It's time to put the future of Iraq where it belongs - in the hands of the Iraqi people and their leaders. Our valiant soldiers have done their job.
Tell your Senators: support Senate Joint Resolution 36 to bring our combat troops home in 2006
President Bush wants to stumble along, perpetuating his mistakes for the remainder of his time in office. He's even suggested that decisions about withdrawing all of our troops from Iraq will be for the next president to make.
And, instead of statesmanship, the president's top advisor, Karl Rove, is worrying that the war has put voters in a "sour mood" for the 2006 elections. He should be worried about the safety of our troops, not the job security of Republican congressmen.
It took President Bush three years to admit he was wrong to say 'bring it on.' We can't afford years to go by until he admits the standstill in Iraq today is wrong.
Tell your Senators: support Senate Joint Resolution 36 to bring our combat troops home in 2006
After months of squabbling and delay, we now hear that the new Iraqi government will complete its cabinet in a matter of days. So, it's time to act -- time to keep the pressure on.
Iraqi leaders have only responded to deadlines -- a deadline to transfer authority to a provisional government, a deadline to hold three elections, and their own constitutional deadline to establish a unity government.
Now we must set another deadline to get our combat troops out and get Iraq up on its own two feet. We must agree with the new Iraqi government on a schedule for withdrawing American combat forces by the end of this year.
Doing so will empower the new Iraqi leadership, put Iraqis in the position of running their own country, and undermine support for the insurgency, which is fueled in large measure by the majority of Iraqis who want us to leave their country.
Tell your Senators: support Senate Joint Resolution 36 to bring our combat troops home in 2006
Our soldiers have done their job, and America is grateful to them for their honor and sacrifice. Now it's time for the Iraqis to do their job of securing and governing their country and it is time to get our combat troops home in 2006. Only troops essential to finishing the job of training Iraqi forces should remain.
We need blunt talk and clear plans -- and only pressure from you can force Washington to change course.
I am committed to forcing Congress to speak out on Iraq. Yesterday in Los Angeles I made it clear that I'm not going to stop fighting until we have a change in policy. I urge you to keep supporting our efforts to force action when lives are on the line and leadership is desperately needed.
Sincerely,
John Kerry
Posted by bdgee on :
YES!!!!
Posted by DWE on :
Al Gore knows how to stay in the "spotlight" by appearing on Saturday Night Live and doing comedy scenes. Who's this John Kerry guy I keep hearing about?
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Amen to Purl Gurl! Nuts to DWE.
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: Please email and call your representative.
We need to extract America from Iraq. This war in Iraq is killing our kids, killing the Iraqi, causing great harm to economies of the world and seriously damaging our American reputation as a good country.
Please help to bring our kids back home; too many have died, too many are dying.
Please add your voice in support of this Senate Joint Resolution 36 for our kids, for the kids of Iraq.
Purl Gurl
**
Dear Kiralynne,
It's as simple as this. Most members of Congress, myself included, share some responsibility for getting us into Iraq. We've got to take responsibility for getting us out.
Since April, hundreds of thousands of you have joined me in calling for a change in policy, a change in course -- for Iraq, and for Americans here at home. Now let's turn the volume up higher. Washington needs to hear your voice.
The violence continues to spiral in Iraq. But, instead of a deadline to bring our troops home and put the future of Iraq in the hands of Iraqi leaders, we get half-hearted comments about past mistakes, and cynical political calculation.
Last month, I introduced Senate Joint Resolution 36 which calls for the withdrawal of our combat troops from Iraq by the end of this year. In the next few weeks, I am urging the Senate to take a strong stand on Iraq and pass this Resolution. It's time to put the future of Iraq where it belongs - in the hands of the Iraqi people and their leaders. Our valiant soldiers have done their job.
Tell your Senators: support Senate Joint Resolution 36 to bring our combat troops home in 2006
President Bush wants to stumble along, perpetuating his mistakes for the remainder of his time in office. He's even suggested that decisions about withdrawing all of our troops from Iraq will be for the next president to make.
And, instead of statesmanship, the president's top advisor, Karl Rove, is worrying that the war has put voters in a "sour mood" for the 2006 elections. He should be worried about the safety of our troops, not the job security of Republican congressmen.
It took President Bush three years to admit he was wrong to say 'bring it on.' We can't afford years to go by until he admits the standstill in Iraq today is wrong.
Tell your Senators: support Senate Joint Resolution 36 to bring our combat troops home in 2006
After months of squabbling and delay, we now hear that the new Iraqi government will complete its cabinet in a matter of days. So, it's time to act -- time to keep the pressure on.
Iraqi leaders have only responded to deadlines -- a deadline to transfer authority to a provisional government, a deadline to hold three elections, and their own constitutional deadline to establish a unity government.
Now we must set another deadline to get our combat troops out and get Iraq up on its own two feet. We must agree with the new Iraqi government on a schedule for withdrawing American combat forces by the end of this year.
Doing so will empower the new Iraqi leadership, put Iraqis in the position of running their own country, and undermine support for the insurgency, which is fueled in large measure by the majority of Iraqis who want us to leave their country.
Tell your Senators: support Senate Joint Resolution 36 to bring our combat troops home in 2006
Our soldiers have done their job, and America is grateful to them for their honor and sacrifice. Now it's time for the Iraqis to do their job of securing and governing their country and it is time to get our combat troops home in 2006. Only troops essential to finishing the job of training Iraqi forces should remain.
We need blunt talk and clear plans -- and only pressure from you can force Washington to change course.
I am committed to forcing Congress to speak out on Iraq. Yesterday in Los Angeles I made it clear that I'm not going to stop fighting until we have a change in policy. I urge you to keep supporting our efforts to force action when lives are on the line and leadership is desperately needed.
Sincerely,
John Kerry
Posted by NaturalResources on :
I think running away now and showing the enemy what cowards we are is a great idea. It worked well in Mogadishu...
Posted by bdgee on :
Yes, NR! By all means and with every ounce of our soul and the blood of the last young man or woman we can conscipt, let's stay the course, like we did in Viet Nam. Yes! It worked well in Viet Nam.
Show those second rate little weak sniveling countries that we dictate right and wrong and we can't be stopped or questioned when we invade one of them on false lies and false pretenses.
It worked well in Viet Nam.
Posted by westcott on :
Hey...maybe we should contact our Congressman and women and also ask that our Police Officers withdrawal from Washington D.C. and almost every other U.S. major metropolitan area.
The civilian death rate in Iraq is less than that of Washington, D.C., Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, St. Louis and New Orleans. Quick! Sound the retreat...our cities have become more violent than Iraq.
And N.R. is right on point. Islamofacsism has been emboldened by our lack of response in the past: Word Trade Center I, the U.S.S. Cole, Mogadishu, the 1996 attack on the U.S. military barracks Khobar Towers, the 1998 attacks on U.S. Embassies in Africa, the 1999 "Millennium" plot, etc. All one needs to do is ask one very simple question to answer the need for withdrawal:
Would our enemies desire for our troops to leave Iraq or stay in Iraq?
Funny how critics of this Administration walk almost in lock-step with every decision our enemies would prefer we take.
Posted by glassman on :
you have some strange statistics there W... care to support them? what is a "death rate" ? is your data "per capita" and what are the reference indexes?
are you speaking of people who die of old age? LOL
show me how many terrorist attacks people have died in in the US? or how many kidnappings?
people with your attitude are why we are in this mess already...
i don't agree with just pulling out either...
BUT?
people spouting stuff like this: Funny how critics of this Administration walk almost in lock-step with every decision our enemies would prefer we take. are just making the next holy war inevitable...
what makes you so sure you know what our enemies want? if you look at the fall of the USSR? you'll find that the war in Afghanistan was the real tipping point... binalivetoolong was "schooled" in that war...
seems you haven't noticed? the Islamofascist instigators have used the Iraq war to support their cause.... they have recruited using the war and increased their numbers exponentially....
Would our enemies desire for our troops to leave Iraq or stay in Iraq?
anybody who fights a war this way has already given over control of the decision making process.... that's a political slogan, not a General's strategic rule IMO? we crossed several crucial decision making points a couple years ago... we have no choice but to finish off the Iraq war, but it's gonna get much worse bfore it gets better, and i do mean much worse.....
there will come a point where Iraq has to be armed to defend itself from other countries... we'll have to arm them, LOL (right ) we're gonna give them heavy armour and missile defense sytems??? that's insane.... no, we're in there as "cops" for the foreseeable future.... watch the co$t here: http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182 Posted by Purl Gurl on :
Would not you like to earn money at that rate!
Hundreds of billions of dollars wasted, thrown away. We could have solved almost all our domestic woes and established a colony on Mars for that amount of money.
What Bush and coherts will not tell America is both Afghanistan and Iraq will end up with Islamic fundamentalist governments, which, in the future, may lean towards support of terrorists.
Maxine Waters was the only person in Congress who voted against the Iraq war. Look how she was treated, even labeled a traitor.
Today, some realize she was right.
Purl Gurl
Posted by glassman on :
What Bush and coherts will not tell America is both Afghanistan and Iraq will end up with Islamic fundamentalist governments, which, in the future, may lean towards support of terrorists.
this money could also have been spent in outright bribes to influence the moderate Islamic leaders to assist US much more forcefully in the war on terror... instead? we have isolated ourselves from the world community.
Putin saw his chance to hurt US in this too... he "tweaked" the world oil market with the Yukos deal..... with all due respect PG? i can't sign that petition, or support it... as long as the dems continue to put forth unrealistic plans? they won't gain any traction...
it sounds good, and lofty, but it's not realistic... i know kids that are signing up to go, and i'm not telling not to...
the cultural differences between US and the mideast are so immense that the only answer (i see) is to stop buying mideast oil... that's their only "political capital"... but it's significant... take the oil money? and they are no longer a threat...
Brazil saw this years ago...
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
I understand your point of view, Glassman, and will not argue. I do not like either political party, do not support Bush nor Kerry.
We do need, though, to get out of Iraq. Means is unimportant. Loss of American image, is unimportant. What is important is to get America out of our new Vietnam. This is a lost cause, no good will come of this and each day our country is damaged more.
As with Vietnam, we are sending our children to be wounded, to be killed, for nothing.
Many are yelling "stay the course" although our course is headed for disaster.
Purl Gurl
Posted by glassman on :
well W? those stats? where are those stats you "quote"???
Hurry...the boat's idling. Posted by glassman on :
maybe this will help: it's old, but it also shows that the admin called the war "over" a long time ago.... (note that it's not a "liberal media outlet")
Surveys pointing to high civilian death toll in Iraq Preliminary reports suggest casualties well above the Gulf War. By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor BAGHDAD – Evidence is mounting to suggest that between 5,000 and 10,000 Iraqi civilians may have died during the recent war, according to researchers involved in independent surveys of the country.
None of the local and foreign researchers were willing to speak for the record, however, until their tallies are complete.
Such a range would make the Iraq war the deadliest campaign for noncombatants that US forces have fought since Vietnam.
Though it is still too early for anything like a definitive estimate, the surveyors warn, preliminary reports from hospitals, morgues, mosques, and homes point to a level of civilian casualties far exceeding the Gulf War, when 3,500 civilians are thought to have died.
"Thousands are dead, thousands are missing, thousands are captured," says Haidar Taie, head of the tracing department for the Iraqi Red Crescent in Baghdad. "It is a big disaster."
By one measure of violence against noncombatants, as compared with resistance faced by soldiers, the war in Iraq was particularly brutal. In Operation Just Cause, the 1989 http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html
is this how to win friends and influence people?
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
There is good news.
The Bush family is setting up Jeb Bush to be president in the future.
Nixon wanted to be king.
Bush family is creating a monarchy, a royal family!
Purl Gurl
Posted by glassman on :
they need Jeb to be next president...he's the only person they can trust not to reveal all of the secrets this admin desparately needs to keep hidden... the Weekly Standard is behind this right now... those are the same people that were pushing for the Iraq war before Dubya even got into office....
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: This is a lost cause, no good will come of this...
What an effrontery to the men, women and children of Iraq who endured incredible barbarism during Saddam's reign.
What an effrontery to the men and woman of our armed forces, coalition forces and Iraqi men who have died or been injured in the name of expanding freedom and democracy.
What an effrontery to all of the men and women who risked their lives to vote in free elections in Iraq.
Good has come out of this mission in Iraq. The day to day news is troubling, but not fully indicative of the incredible progress being made. I have yet to see anything good out of something that does not require sacrifice - this seems to be how the economy of the universe works. __________
Glass, my statistics are not shady. All one needs to do is cross-reference "violent death rates" in metro area x with those of Iraq. Very simple to do.
Here is the first step: Google Posted by glassman on :
Glass, my statistics are not shady. All one needs to do is cross-reference "violent death rates" in metro area x with those of Iraq. Very simple to do.
Here is the first step: Google
not good enough... you are simply repeating propaganda when you say this: The civilian death rate in Iraq is less than that of Washington, D.C., Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, St. Louis and New Orleans. Quick! Sound the retreat...our cities have become more violent than Iraq.
that's the kind of crap rushie puts out every day...
the fact is that the US military has seen to it that there are no Iraq casualty numbers available...it's a matter of policy, and you know not of which you are speaking... i have no problem with the military doing this because i am not under any illusions about this war or war in general....
my anger toward the current admin is how they have treated career people in the military and the intel community to "get the war they wanted" which i suggest to you is exactly what we have right now.... and a lot of people with common sense and integrity have been stepped on and fired and black-balled when they pointed out some the flaws in the plan...
do i think there is some evil master plan? NO... i do think there have been some very stupid choices made, and i am sure there has been a lot of lying going on...
certain Iraqi exiles led a few "deciders" to mess up really really bad...
i am willing to wait until 2009 to find out the rest of the truth...
i find it interesting that you think you know what our enemies want and you also think you know what "effronts" or troops, and the people of iraq...
where'd you get that intel? on the golf course? LOL
"expanding freedom and democracy" ain't happening...
Iraq's constitution is not one of freedom or democracy.. i suggest you actually read it... it's a POS
Posted by westcott on :
I know what our enemies want by simply listening to what they say and watching they do. Lopping off heads, flying planes into buildings and recruiting suicide bombers is not exactly hieroglyphics, glassman.
I know what affronts our troops because I have family serving and friends who have served and lost lives in Iraq. Plus, telling men and women their sacrifice is worthless is not exactly cryptic - even the spinsters in D.C. would blush trying to re-phrase this one.
I know what affronts many people in Iraq by simply reading what they have to say in numerous b l o g s and videos I receive from specific mission groups. THIS JUST IN: Good news does not sell advertising media. Imagine that.
I have reviewed the Iraqi Constitution and while not ideal, it represents amazing progress for this "neck of the woods". The Muslim culture in the Middle East may be one of the most regressive in the world and it is not going to change over night. Good thing people like you were not steering the ship during the formative years of the United States. Hell, it has taken us centuries to get our own Constitution right and it is still a work in progress. Hard to imagine Iraq is going to take some time as well.
I can just imagine if the same cut-and-run mentality was around in the wake of WWII.
And people making comparisons to Vietnam...oh where to begin...
Posted by macgyver2 on :
quote:Originally posted by westcott: Hey...maybe we should contact our Congressman and women and also ask that our Police Officers withdrawal from Washington D.C. and almost every other U.S. major metropolitan area.
The civilian death rate in Iraq is less than that of Washington, D.C., Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, St. Louis and New Orleans. Quick! Sound the retreat...our cities have become more violent than Iraq.
How is that? The Baghdad morgue announced yesterday that they've received 1398 civilian bodies in the month of May alone. Alll died as a result of violence. 400 are unidentified, so let's even assume that all 400 of those were insurgents. That's still 998 civilians in May. The count is approaching 6000 civilian bodies on the year.
Compare that with our cities here. If I recall correctly (and if you'd like exact numbers I'll look them up and post them for you), the number of homicides in Baltimore is around 300-400 per year.
Now, explain to me why you're not full of crap.
Posted by glassman on :
mission groups oh, yeah, you have a great "intel" system there...
you know what? i was absolutley correct when i saidi think you and people like you are the reason this mess is so bad...
all the "neat things" they tell you? they wouldn't be designed to get you to make a little bigger donation would they? nah, they'd never do that
the "media" is biased? lol religious missions by their very nature are biased....
heck, you can hold NDOL for a few years and give them that? sheesh man....
good news don't sell, but in general? the media doesn't make up news... unless you include Fox "news", they go over that line pretty often...
look at the basics...oil production before invasion compared to oil productin now...it's bad, bad, bad.. and that's the basic, ultimate bottom line indicator of the health of the Iraq situation.... you don't think the (fixing of the loss of)oil production isn't the top priority of our mission there do you?
Iran has a democratic system too... Palestinain elections? how'd they grabya?
maybe "effrontery" should be based on the level of lies involved?
Posted by westcott on :
macgyver:
1. People need to understand "civilian death rates" are not a basis for retreat.
2. "The Baghdad morgue announced they've received 1398 "civilian" bodies in the month of may alone"; however, 28% of them are "unidentified". Mmmm-kay. How does one determine "civilian" if "unidentified"? So you eliminate these from the count. Okay. How do these 998 translate into a "civilian death rate"? Perhaps you could provide the math when you are completed.
3. You throw some numbers around about how many people are murdered in Baltimore per year. :::Shrug::: How does this translate into a death rate?
4. The latest statistics I read are available here: Source and look to be accurate through 03 May 2006.
Iraq: 27.51 per 100,000 Venezuela: 31.61 per 100,000 Jamaica: 32.40 per 100,000 South Africa: 49.60 per 100,000 Colombia: 61.78 per 100,000 Washington, D.C.: 45.9 per 100,000 Detroit: 41.8 per 100,000 Baltimore: 37.7 per 100,000 Atlanta: 34.9 per 100,000 St. Louis: 31.4 per 100,000 New Orleans (pre-Katrina): 53.1 per 100,000 __________
Now, call me "full of crap" all you want. I would appreciate an unbiased analysis of the numbers provided above and if they prove to be wrong then why? I am open to matters of truth amending my understanding of a given situation. So, I guess you need to show me how these statistics are "full of crap". After all, I neither came up with these on my own nor pulled them out of thin air.
I look forward to your critique.
Regards,
W
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: lol religious missions by their very nature are biased....
I am sorry. Could you please cut and paste where I mentioned "religious" mission groups?
You wouldn't go around making such assumptions now would you, glassman. After all, that would make you look pretty stupid.
Posted by glassman on :
oh i know you didn't say religous... you think you're the first "good news" person to post here?
where's Kate? you still with US Kate?
which sites W? make me look stupid. show me the good news sites so i can be enlightened? don't forget? i'll find out who pays for those sites....
i read far and wide.... i watch Fox, New American Century, and National Public Radio... i constantly attempt to sort out who has which bias....
address the "death rate" stats again? you're source? i assume those are in fact death rates and have nothing to do with war....
how about kidnapping rates? got any o'them? Iraqi gunmen kill Russian diplomat, kidnap four Last Updated Sat, 03 Jun 2006 23:59:15 EDT CBC News
Gunmen shot and killed a Russian embassy employee in Baghdad Saturday.
The Russian was killed when unidentified assailants blocked an embassy car in Baghdad, shot one person and kidnapped four others.
An Iraqi police source later said the hostages had been rescued by special forces, but the report could not be confirmed.
It was not known whether the attack on the Russian vehicle was politically motivated, but kidnappings have become common in Baghdad since the U.S. invasion in 2003. At least 439 foreigners and diplomats have been abducted in Iraq since the invasion, according to figures provided this month by a U.S. anti-kidnapping task force.
how's that compare to Balitmore? *snicker*
The Russian diplomat was one of at least 42 people who were killed in Iraq Saturday in one of the deadliest days since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.
i'm not even anti-war.... i toldja, my distaste is for propaganda, and the marching morons....
you want to say that people shouldn't critisize the war cuz it's an effront to those that have made sacrifices? i say the people who have made sacrifices deserve the right to know what's really going on..... what they made the sacrifice for... this crap about spreading freedom and democracy is horsehockey... you can't GIVE people this stuff... they have to be willing to die for it... the way the terrorists are running around in Iraq would be a strong indicator that the locals are either supporting theterroists OR they are totally in awe of them... either way? we can't GIVE the Iraqi people freedom.
Posted by glassman on :
Wow, a google of Iraq good news was very depressing....
but it seems they stopped adding after this post: Legendary Iraqi marshes slowly on the mend Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 12:00 AM Despite certain, er, unfortunate events elsewhere in the country, one part of Iraq, subject to some of deposed dictator Saddam Hussein's worst crimes, is experiencing a glimmer of hope.
that's '05 not '06.... as a matter of fact? almost every site is from 04, with only a few that are '05.... who'd of suspected that?
what about you W? that boat is idling after all....
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: oh i know you didn't say religous...
Concession noted.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: you want to say that people shouldn't critisize the war cuz it's an effront to those that have made sacrifices?
Glassman, please stay focused here...I am imploring you.
You have a very annoying tendency to read something I post, completely misconstrue it and then later attribute something to me that I never said.
Example: I never said that, "...people shouldn't critisize the war cuz it's an effront to those that have made sacrifices?". Never said this...not even close.
I am open to responsible criticism of the war. I am not open to people saying, "This is a lost cause, no good will come of this...". How does this statement impact soldiers who believe in their mission and have laid it all on the line? I am sure they have criticisms as well; however, saying "no good will come out of this" is ignorant, short-sighted, mean-spirited and exceedingly offensive to anyone who has sacrificed anything for this effort. A great deal of good has come out of the War in Iraq.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: we can't GIVE the Iraqi people freedom.
Really? And to imagine this whole time I thought we could just hand-out freedom. Silly me...now back to reality: I am sorry if you do not understand the difference in the United States and her coalition forces giving the Iraqi people a chance for freedom and, as you put it, "giving them freedom". It is really not difficult to comprehend.
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
This boy reminds me of Art.
Purl Gurl
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Wow, a google of Iraq good news was very depressing....
but it seems they stopped adding after this post: Legendary Iraqi marshes slowly on the mend Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 12:00 AM Despite certain, er, unfortunate events elsewhere in the country, one part of Iraq, subject to some of deposed dictator Saddam Hussein's worst crimes, is experiencing a glimmer of hope.
that's '05 not '06....
Hey look...I went to Google and did a search for "Good News in Iraq" and looked at one website. The news was bad; ergo, there must not be any good news in Iraq.
This stuff is priceless, glassman - please keep posting your thought process on issues while I grab a beer.
Posted by glassman on :
w says:
You have a very annoying tendency to read something I post, completely misconstrue it and then later attribute something to me that I never said.
Example: I never said that, "...people shouldn't critisize the war cuz it's an effront to those that have made sacrifices?". Never said this...not even close.
galssman responds with a cut-n-paste: westcott Member
Member Rated: 2 Icon 1 posted June 06, 2006 14:47 Profile for westcott Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: This is a lost cause, no good will come of this...
What an effrontery to the men, women and children of Iraq who endured incredible barbarism during Saddam's reign.
What an effrontery to the men and woman of our armed forces, coalition forces and Iraqi men who have died or been injured in the name of expanding freedom and democracy.
What an effrontery to all of the men and women who risked their lives to vote in free elections in Iraq.
Good has come out of this mission in Iraq. The day to day news is troubling, but not fully indicative of the incredible progress being made. I have yet to see anything good out of something that does not require sacrifice - this seems to be how the economy of the universe works. __________
Glass, my statistics are not shady. All one needs to do is cross-reference "violent death rates" in metro area x with those of Iraq. Very simple to do.
Here is the first step: Google Posts: 356 | Registered: Mar 2006 | IP: Logged |
i guess i'm not sure what you were trying to say W....
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i guess i'm not sure what you were trying to say W....
I never faulted people for responsible criticism of the war effort as you allege.
I faulted people for saying no good...NO good will come out of [the war effort in Iraq].
Very simple.
Perhaps I should start sending my posts to you in a Happy Meal...with a toy and everything.
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
Rush Limbaugh can translate that for you.
Purl Gurl
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
"I never faulted people for responsible criticism of the war effort as you allege."
As long as that criticism meets with your approval.
I am not surprised you admantly insist America lie to itself and lie to its troops, just like we did during Vietnam.
Purl Gurl
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: As long as that criticism meets with your approval.
Wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: I am not surprised you admantly insist America lie to itself and lie to its troops, just like we did during Vietnam.
Where have I insisted America lie to itself and to its troops?
Please provide my quotes to underpin this point you are attempting to make.
Posted by glassman on :
PG, i knew Art, i was a friend of Art. W is no Art
W,i can't believe i wasted my 15000th post on that one...
dontcha thinkit's a little sad quibbling over whether: PG meant "no good"? or NO good? it is a colloquialism after all...
and thereis no way that you can say i was completely, yes that's right completely misconstrue misconstruing what you said...
i will concede that there is a very minor distinction (possibly)
nice debate... i'm still waiting on the good news? the boats idling? Posted by Purl Gurl on :
"Please provide my quotes to underpin this point you are attempting to make."
Why? All you will do is write in circles.
Besides, if I write something you do not like, chances are good you will file a complaint with the SEC, with moderators, with Bob Frey, with your mother.... just like in the past.
Professionals would label you co-dependent.
I would counter, "That ain't so! The boy is a psychotic control freak!"
Purl Gurl
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: "Please provide my quotes to underpin this point you are attempting to make."
Why? All you will do is write in circles.
I enjoyed the meringue you used to cover up the fact you came up empty.
Entertaining and transparent at the same time - kudos! __________
Glassman,
I believe Gary Sinise and Laura Hillenbrand started a foundation that has brought some incredible good to the children of Iraq. If you have the time then surf around on their site, read letters from soldiers, Iraqi school children, volunteers, etc. None of this would have been possible if we did not choose to move on Saddam. Operation Iraqi Children
Even if you disagree with the war then you have to admit some good has come out of so much tragedy.
Posted by glassman on :
seems they are doing good work.....
i wouldn't exactly call them a mission group tho... or mission groupS..... I know what affronts many people in Iraq by simply reading what they have to say in numerous b l o g s and videos I receive from specific mission groups. THIS JUST IN: Good news does not sell advertising media. Imagine that Posted by Purl Gurl on :
"...some good has come out of so much tragedy."
How much good compared to how much tragedy?
What good befalls the children being pulled off school buses then beheaded or shot?
Purl Gurl
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: This boy reminds me of Art.
Purl Gurl
Nope. Art not only used better English and better logic (his problem was that he started with false premises), he had much better data. This guy is a bit confused on statistics and doesn't know it. Art knew that was out of his ballpark.
Posted by glassman on :
Art never tried to pretend to make a point by asking a question either... he said what he thought, and challenged you to try to change his stubborn mind, which was pretty much impossible.... Posted by Purl Gurl on :
Ok, you boys win. He does not remind me of Art. He reminds me of Rush Limbaugh.
Purl Gurl
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
I went over to Google news and read up on children being killed in Iraq. Very alarming and very sad. Children are prime targets of the Sunni people over there.
Purl Gurl
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
I suppose somewhere in the Islamic holy book the prophet preaches it is ok to kill children.
We killed a lot of children during wars. However, we did not have a habit of beheading children, shooting children in schools, in churches, in school buses....
Purl Gurl
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
I hope some of you will contact your representative in Washington in support of resolution 36. We truly need to get out of Iraq, right away.
You will note the resolution only calls for removal of combat troops and leaving training forces in place. This not abandonment, this is removing reason for combat.
Additionally, resolution 36 does not call for removal of those helping to rebuild. This is strictly reducing our combat role.
Purl Gurl
Posted by bdgee on :
I had to drive across town to take my sister home from work and had time while doing so to think on the idea. I realized that what Lady Purl is seeing is the arrogance.
Yes, mamm, I do have to agree with that assessment, he displays the same arrogance as Art.
And I also have to agree that that type of ignorant arrogance is a characteristic of Fat Rush the Doper(Ann Coulter too). They speak in platitudes and act insulted if you point that out. Worse, they seem to feel you should apologize for the insult.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Purl Gurl: This is a lost cause, no good will come of this... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: _________________________________________________
Originally posted by westcott:
What an effrontery to the men, women and children of Iraq who endured incredible barbarism during Saddam's reign.
What an effrontery to the men and woman of our armed forces, coalition forces and Iraqi men who have died or been injured in the name of expanding freedom and democracy.
What an effrontery to all of the men and women who risked their lives to vote in free elections in Iraq.
Good has come out of this mission in Iraq. The day to day news is troubling, but not fully indicative of the incredible progress being made. I have yet to see anything good out of something that does not require sacrifice - this seems to be how the economy of the universe works. __________
Glass, my statistics are not shady. All one needs to do is cross-reference "violent death rates" in metro area x with those of Iraq. Very simple to do.
________________________________________________
westcott,
Not a bad try there maybe wrong day, wrong audience. It would be nice to think that the troops are thinking it is a great cause and some do, it sure makes it easier when they go to war and i hope after they get home and ten years later they still feel the same way, especially the wounded ones, it would make it much easier for them. If you think the little bit of good that comes out of this war off sets the bad, go down to a military or a VA. hospital where the wounded are hospitalized and see what you think then. The U.S. went in and got rid of Saddam now it time the Iraq's do there job if they want freedom otherwise everything we did is in vain again.
How do you think we make an honorable withdrawal from Iraq and when?
Posted by bdgee on :
The absurd idea that you can, via force, convert an Islamic society to democracy turns my stomach. Democracy cannot be forced on a people by the very definition of democracy. You cannot wring out of a culture the thing it forms about and Islam serves that function in the middle east.
Anybody that bothered to think about it (that's assuming they can think) knew beforehand that invading Iraq was going to end this way! This war is alreeady a complete loss for the U.S. Why prolong and deepen the damage to our own culture, not to mention our economy?
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: How do you think we make an honorable withdrawal from Iraq and when?
I believe we make an honorable withdrawal from Iraq by ensuring the progress made by our soldiers is not only maintained but advanced. A precipitous withdrawal threatens the tremendous strides that have been realized in Iraq and diminishes the sacrifices made by U.S. and coalition forces to include the Iraqis themselves. I do not see any honor in setting an arbitrary deadline for our withdrawal. Resolution 36 is the quintessential mid-term legislative proposal used to rally a base for the “get out and vote” drive - exceedingly transparent.
As far as when? As soon as the Iraqis display effective autonomy. I do not think people realize we stayed in post-war Germany for eleven (11) years. The mission in Germany was much less complex than our current objective in Iraq. Secterian division orchestrated by over twenty (20) years of Saddam rule, religious fanaticism and broad arena support via Syria, Iran and terrorist outposts have exponentially complicated our role. I believe an objective overview of all accomplishments would show profound progress has been realized while acknowledging incredible mistakes have been made along the way. Specifically, I believe we are currently reaping many of the missteps sown by Paul Bremer at the onset.
I deem many people's view of what we are trying to accomplish as myopic. The current effort is much larger than Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The United States is embroiled in one of the most acute moments in history when an entire culture can be influenced by subtle change. The Middle East is the epicenter of civilization which has slowly been choked-off by incredibly repressive religious tyrants. Self-determination, cultural advancement and women’s rights have been suffocated through years of radical Islamic brainwashing. The missions in Afghanistan and Iraq, while extremely costly on a human and economic scale, may well usher in an Enlightenment for the Middle East.
Finally, the strategic importance of a significant presence of U.S. forces in this theater is paramount. The shift from post-WWII instillations to Eurasia is paramount for the security of our country in the 22nd century. I believe a strong U.S. presence proximal to North Africa and the Persian Gulf is in the interest of those people who would seek democracy over religious tyranny. So the debate about withdrawing from Iraq because our “image is being tarnished” and the cost of life and property is too steep, while well-intentioned in most cases, is exceedingly small-minded.
Resolution 36 and its cadre of rhetoric are “carpe diem” solutions instead of wise geopolitical investment. I have yet to meet a person who does not want to see our soldiers come home. However, the key to leadership and judicious discernment is understanding when we need them to stay.
Posted by macgyver2 on :
quote:Originally posted by westcott:
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: How do you think we make an honorable withdrawal from Iraq and when?
I believe we make an honorable withdrawal from Iraq by ensuring the progress made by our soldiers is not only maintained but advanced. A precipitous withdrawal threatens the tremendous strides that have been realized in Iraq and diminishes the sacrifices made by U.S. and coalition forces to include the Iraqis themselves. I do not see any honor in setting an arbitrary deadline for our withdrawal. Resolution 36 is the quintessential mid-term legislative proposal used to rally a base for the “get out and vote” drive - exceedingly transparent.
As far as when? As soon as the Iraqis display effective autonomy.
But...but...that's NATION BUILDING! We've been told nation building is absolutely wrong and that the US military is supposed to be used to fight and win wars, NOT for nation building. In fact, that nation building is wrong was one of the exceedingly transparent pieces of rhetoric that the current commander-in-chief used to rally his base in 2000. Along with saying it in stump speeches, I believe he even went on a diatribe about it in the second presidential debate.
Since the president himself said that he would never use troops for nation building, and since no one wants a FLIP-FLOPPER as president (right?), the only option is to bring the troops home and stop them from perpetuating the horrible crime that is nation building.
Posted by glassman on :
The United States is embroiled in one of the most acute moments in history when an entire culture can be influenced by subtle change.
here's where i disagree with you W.
why do you think a "fledgling culture" (and that is what we are, whether you realise it or not) has the ability to change a culture with 1000 years of religious dominance in a region?
The Middle East is the epicenter of civilization which has slowly been choked-off by incredibly repressive religious tyrants.
slowly choked off? LOL it's been choked off for over a thousand years...
i do agree about the myopia here, but it was most definitely at it's worst when the American people were being given the reasons to invvade Iraq in the beginning....
So the debate about withdrawing from Iraq because our “image is being tarnished” and the cost of life and property is too steep, while well-intentioned in most cases, is exceedingly small-minded. that's rich..... have you noticed how the "coalition of the willing" is shrinking?
Finally, the strategic importance of a significant presence of U.S. forces in this theater is paramount. in other words? we ain't leaving? Bush has never had the guts to say that has he?
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: why do you think a "fledgling culture" (and that is what we are, whether you realise it or not) has the ability to change a culture with 1000 years of religious dominance in a region?
First, why do you believe we are a "fledgling culture"? I need to understand your mind on this before I can properly answer your question.
My best stab at it by not understanding what you mean by "fledgling culture": I believe the realization that self-determination is possible can transform any culture.
I also disagree with your premise on "religious dominance" which I expand upon next.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: slowly choked off? LOL it's been choked off for over a thousand years...
Yes, slowly choked off. I do not agree with your assessment that this area has been "choked off for over a thousand years". I believe a dramatic change has happened where once an Arabic culture dominated that happened to have Islamic tendencies; whereas, today you have an Islamic culture that is dominating one with Arabic tendencies.
The tipping-point for this slow transformation was the modern spread of Wahhabism during the early 20th century. I believe the culture in the Middle East was much more progressive and peaceful prior to Wahhabi proselytization. Arabs are some of the most giving, selfless, thoughtful people on the globe. However, an extremely radical brand of Islam has destabilized and perverted a once glorious culture over the past 100 years...not 1,000.
The current mission is to allow an Arabic culture to crawl out from under a repressive brand of Islam.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: that's rich..... have you noticed how the "coalition of the willing" is shrinking?
Is this supposed to be a barometer for what is right? Because only a few participate and even fewer see a given action to the end must mean the initial mission was flawed? Do you remember how few countries came to the aid of the Jews in the run-up to WWII? The United States even turned its back on these people and an entire class of humans was almost eliminated. I believe there are times in history when a select few muster the courage to stand against the concensus opinion. Remember Chamberlain and Churchill?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: in other words? we ain't leaving? Bush has never had the guts to say that has he?
President Bush has made it exceedingly clear that we will maintain and strengthen a U.S. presence in this theater.
I believe you are confusing the removal of combat troops with an ongoing U.S. presence.
Posted by glassman on :
self-determining.
that's the key word here...
that's the point, they have a self-determining culture already, and we are trying to change their culture...
that's OK with me.... as long as it's not at gun-point....
Posted by westcott on :
Strange.
History is replete with examples where the sword, the arrow or the gun were the only means to afford a people with self-determination. Should we not have changed our own culture of slavery because it tragically required brothers to kill brothers?
The idea conflict can be avoided to end tyranny belongs on Fantasy Island, not the real world.
Posted by glassman on :
Wahhabism is not the problem in the mid-east...
once again you are going to religion instead of basic human nature...
you made a comment about eastern european women not (how'd you put it?) wasting time trying to be equal?
you are not really "up on" what our current culture is either...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by westcott: Strange.
History is replete with examples where the sword, the arrow or the gun were the only means to afford a people with self-determination. Should we not have changed our own culture of slavery because it tragically required brothers to kill brothers?
The idea conflict can be avoided to end tyranny belongs on Fantasy Island, not the real world.
that's just sick.... the civil war was a war to maintian the Federation....
the South seceded from the Union, the North stopped the secession...
i'll remind you again, i'm not anti-war...
show me how Bush woulda got this war started by saying we have a responsibility to "fix" their culture....
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Wahhabism is not the problem in the mid-east...
It is a major factor.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: once again you are going to religion instead of basic human nature...
Then please show me how the "human nature" of Arabs is different than that of others?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: you made a comment about eastern european women not (how'd you put it?) wasting time trying to be equal?
This was a tongue-in-cheek statement about our modern feminist movement.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: you are not really "up on" what our current culture is either...
Oh...what am I missing?
Posted by westcott on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: the South seceded from the Union
Why?
Posted by glassman on :
why? once again? you are simplifying a very complicated answer....
did you know that New Orleans had more financial capital than New York did at the time of secession? i find it IRONIC that Bush's voting support now comes almost entirely from the south, and you are using the Civil War as an argument to shore up invading another country for the purpose of social change... i live in Mississippi bud.... you ain't funny..
Posted by westcott on :
How is asking "why" simplifying a very complicated answer?
That doesn't even make any sense, glassman.
"Why" is a question to which you offer an answer.
Asking a question does not complicate an answer.
Very weird response you gave. __________
Regarding New Orleans. Yes. I also know that only slaves from certain parishes benefited from the Emancipation Proclamation. I am very familiar with the idea that the South seceded because they resented the overwhelming pro-rata share of the Federal Tax burden was collected form Southern coffers. I also understand the South's resistance to the North's desire to commandeer Mississippi's shipping lanes. Yadda...yadda...yadda...I am very familiar with the writings of James Robert Kennedy - interesting stuff.
However, denying the end of slavery as a facet of the American Civil War is plain ole' ignorance.
Good to hear that you are a “State’s Rights” kinda guy though…excuse my assumption if errant.
Posted by glassman on :
i didn't deny it....
i'm not FROM here W...
look, lemme just put it this way...
this place hasn't recovered yet...
and New Orleans? well? you get my point?
the poverty left after the war has never been fixed
as far as "tweaking" cultures? you are claiming to "give" them self-determination at gunpoint...
the civil war was about self-determination... states' rights etc.....
you're logic is getting circular....
circualr logic is almost always the result of trying to cover up lies...
not your lies W..... other lies...BIG lies....
war is always about the flow of capital....
you are the one who is in fantasy: this statemnet is a closed logical loop... The idea conflict can be avoided to end tyranny belongs on Fantasy Island, not the real world. Posted by bdgee on :
Why is it that the last couple of generations of our population want to believe thaat "states' rights" gives them the right to be racially biased and pass laws to that effect? Can't these people see that trying to pass laws to require the desires of religion is nothing more than an attempt to build precident to later declare and justify that a state can legislate racial bias.
Posted by glassman on :
huh?
Posted by Repoman75 on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: why? once again? you are simplifying a very complicated answer....
did you know that New Orleans had more financial capital than New York did at the time of secession? i find it IRONIC that Bush's voting support now comes almost entirely from the south, and you are using the Civil War as an argument to shore up invading another country for the purpose of social change... i live in Mississippi bud.... you ain't funny..
I'd like to see proof about your New Orleans statement.
And don't get out of line, or us Yankees will come down there and burn your plantation to the ground.
Posted by glassman on :
proof? hmmmmmm...
in the 1840's it was the fourth leading port in the world,
cotton was being exported to England, the money in town was there to buy cotton...
New York was a larger port, but did not have need for cash to buy the cotton crop that New Orleans did.
Louisiana's Bank Act of 1842 was the first law passed in the United States requiring banks to keep a gold or silver reserve against notes and deposits. hence? they had more financial capital than NYC...
arguing about the civil war is moot...
yes there were a lot of good intentions in freeing the slaves.... (unfortunately? there were also a lot of less "humanitarian" reasons)
BUT?
it took Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King's PEACEFUL resolutions to bring about real civl rights change didn't it?
interestingly? cotton was also critical in India's struggle with British colonial rule... Ghandi? peaceful protest...
Posted by glassman on :
The cotton industry was among the world's largest industries at midcentury, drawing on the labor of perhaps 20 million workers. Prior to 1861, most of the world supply of raw cotton had been produced by slaves on plantations in the American South and was spun into thread and woven into cloth by textile workers in Lancashire England. nearly 4 million slaves were released... 3 to 4 million bales per year were removed from world markets during the war...
the South had fully expected England to come to their aid. this was obviously a grave misjudgement...
By the late 1850s, the United States accounted for a full 77 percent of the 800 million pounds of cotton consumed in Britain, 90 percent of the 192 million pounds used in France, 60 percent of the 115 million pounds spun in the German Zollverein, and as much as 92 percent of the 102 million pounds manufactured in Russia.10 When the British economist J. T. Danson considered in 1857 carefully the "[c]onnection between American Slavery and the British Cotton Manufacture," he concluded that "there is not, and never has been, any considerable source of supply for cotton, excepting the East-Indies, which is not obviously and exclusively maintained by slave-labour."11
New Orleans was a pretty significant center of trade....
cotton was called "white gold"
and that? as opposed to "black gold"?
Posted by glassman on :
During the late 1850s, prime male field hands aged eighteen to thirty cost on the average $1,200, and skilled slaves such as blacksmiths often were valued at more than $2,000. In comparison, good Texas cotton land could be bought for as little as six dollars an acre.
there has been a lot written on the economics of slavery..... the main reason i said it's "sick" to bring the civil war into the current war discussion, was because it was really just an ugly economic system.... i don't recall the exact figures now, but it was actually a very few very wealthy/privileged people that owned slaves... as you can see? you could buy at least a hundred acres of very good land for the price of a slave... the median house cost today in the US is about equivalent to the cost of one slave in 1850...
it was mostly poor people who had/would never own a slave in the South who fought and died for the right of a few to continue that way of life.... this subject is very unpleasant isn't it?
Posted by bond006 on :
Anybody with a brain in there head and can read knows the main cause of the civil war was slavery it was the most profitable business in the US and slave owners were the wealthiest sec
tion of the American economy. You could go into volumes and volumes of proof but the best and easiest reason to bear this out is the rise of an independent party know as the republicans who ran on the ticket of anti slavery and won the election and wound out controling congress and that forced the forces of slavery to go on the military offensive or give up there slaves and we all know what happened
Posted by TickTrader on :
Some of you guys don't get out much, I see. The only reason anything is done/not done has to do with money. Once one has it, then one must work to protect it - preserve one's ability to continue acquiring it. Governments, politicians, businesses, on and on.
The civil war determined whether or not power/money would reside with a loose confederacy of states or with a centralized federal government. Issues on slavery were put out for public consumption (and that looks great in the history books).
Current events? Some things never change. The history books will tell you what you want to believe later.
Just the way I feel about it, others can only learn from their own experiences. The internet world is such a shallow reflection of real life.
Funny to me, if Kerry is out there again, telling people what they want to hear. lol
Posted by Gordon Bennett on :
Worth a repeat...
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: I hope some of you will contact your representative in Washington in support of resolution 36. We truly need to get out of Iraq, right away.
You will note the resolution only calls for removal of combat troops and leaving training forces in place. This not abandonment, this is removing reason for combat.
Additionally, resolution 36 does not call for removal of those helping to rebuild. This is strictly reducing our combat role.
Purl Gurl
Posted by TickTrader on :
Again?
Purl says... "Our soldiers have done their job, and America is grateful to them for their honor and sacrifice. Now it's time for the Iraqis to do their job of securing and governing their country and it is time to get our combat troops home in 2006. Only troops essential to finishing the job of training Iraqi forces should remain."
Look. There is no easy way to say this, so let's cut to the chase. Our combat troops may as well cut the throats of our troops they would be leaving behind. It would save militants a lot of time and effort.
Remember Somalia?
Posted by bdgee on :
Accepting your postulate that nothing is done except for financial reward, just who pays you to spout Party line BS and object to reason and honest patriotism?
Your argument is 99% regurgitation from your handler's dogma, as in,
"turn off brain, repeat platitudes over and over loudly".
And do it so loud and frequently that no one can get in a word of reason edgewise and certainly none that isn't from the Party.
Posted by DWE on :
How about we support "resolution" one million-two! The legalization of Jim Beam in all 50 states! Or is that already legalized???
Posted by TickTrader on :
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) we're gonna give them heavy armour and missile defense sytems??? that's insane....![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)