Would love to hear comments from the peanut gallery that condon the war on this video.
So, our government doing this is acceptable?
What would YOU think of americans if you were born in Iraq and someone came into your country and burned your family and children who were supposed to be liberating you?
Can you imagine the horror if you were there and tried to surrender only to see your family shot?
Posted by 4Art on :
I urge everyone to watch the ENTIRE video before commenting.
Posted by HILANDER on :
Oh, so you were there too huh Art? What sector did you fight in? Your one sided propaganda film was cool. Brought back some memories. Anyway, Willie pete and napalm aren't chemical weapons. Guys waving white flags isn't uncommon, it's what they do when they run out of ammo and got no where to go. Shooting kids, well, when they shoot at you first, that's what happens. Oh and the Iralian journalist who got shot up. Well, even the Iraqi's know you don't approach a checkpoint at a high rate of speed. It's the whole suicide bomber thing. Oh wait, you've never had to exerience that. Never mind. You have no idea what it's like over there.
Posted by MasterQuinn on :
Hilander you've been there?
Which type of weapon makes your skin fall off your body but not your clothes?
Oh, so you believe OUR media but no others? Even though theres countries like india, great britain and others that report on things like this on a consistant basis? They are wrong too? Only the American filtered media is true?
I suppose chinese people believe they live in a democratic society because their government tells them they do?
Posted by 4Art on :
Napalm and White phosphorus aren't chemical weapons?
Jesus Christ, how sick.
Posted by MasterQuinn on :
Hilander,
when you say things like...
quote:Shooting kids, well, when they shoot at you first, that's what happens
Sounds to me like you think someone is saying it's the individual troops fault for this conduct and that they are not conducting themselves.
They do as they are TOLD to do... You know what RANK is I'm sure, you listen to your commander I'm sure.
I don'tblame individual troops. There are times when they do things like stick a flourescent light bulb up someones a$$ but.. They are humans.. (some sarcasim with truth in that one).
Posted by 4Art on :
HILANDER feels that napalm and white phosphorus aren't chemical weapons.
Anyone else want to stand by that opinion?
Posted by HILANDER on :
No art, napalm isn't a chemical weapon. It's an incindiary. Yeah, quinn, riiiight, we're using weapons that do that. Umm, probably shouldn't believe everything you hear or read. And yes quinn, I have. Have you? Do you know how bad your buddies guts smell (at least until they dry out) when you get 'em on your uniform. Hey, I have and idea. Why don't you guys go do the whole Viet Nam thing and find the first soldier or Marine, and not a REMF, but a true combat arms guy and get in his face over this. I mean face to face. Tell him what you think about what he's doing over there. Quinn, you can run up to Ft. Drum and Art, you can run over to Camp Pendleton. And Quinn, I believe no one but myself and my buddies that were there.
Posted by HILANDER on :
Once again Art, they are both classified as incidiary weapons. And yes, if a kid is shooting at you what are you supposed to do? Accept it. You don't, you do what you have to to keep your own guys alive. Pure and simple. Right and wrong get awfully grey when you are trying to survive a situation. And unless you've been in that situation you really shouldn't be passing judgement.
Posted by 4Art on :
I urge everyone to watch this video. It contains testimony from people who were actually there, and undeniable footage. See the video HILANDER calls "cool!" Posted by MasterQuinn on :
quote:No art, napalm isn't a chemical weapon. It's an incindiary. Yeah, quinn, riiiight, we're using weapons that do that. Umm, probably shouldn't believe everything you hear or read. And yes quinn, I have. Have you? Do you know how bad your buddies guts smell (at least until they dry out) when you get 'em on your uniform. Hey, I have and idea. Why don't you guys go do the whole Viet Nam thing and find the first soldier or Marine, and not a REMF, but a true combat arms guy and get in his face over this. I mean face to face. Tell him what you think about what he's doing over there. Quinn, you can run up to Ft. Drum and Art, you can run over to Camp Pendleton. And Quinn, I believe no one but myself and my buddies that were there.
So I should believe who exactly then, please clarify because I can not make my own conclusions with the incredible amount of information I've gone through over the last few years.
I'm not citing the Iraq "war" to come to my conclusions it's with data of past wars and administrations actions.
Hilander, then why are these peoples skin falling off their bodies?
I don't believe most of what I read, like I said I didn't come to this conclusion after watching 1 video.
What is with saying go talk to a soldier, what does you smelling your buddies guts have to do with the government using chemical weapons?
I'll say it again, I don't blame individual soldiers, they do what they are told. In this case the soldiers were just pilots who pressed a button to drop weapons (simlar to weapons we tell people not to use).
So, I don't know what your point is, you seem to take this personally when it is not.
I'm sorry I care about human lives including YOURS.
Posted by 4Art on :
Hey, the american media is talking about napalm and white phosphorus and how we use them.
US army retired col.
Posted by HILANDER on :
Quinn, the only chemical weapon I am aware of that would cause your skin to fall off or perhaps look like it would be possibly a blister agent. But I think those primarily attack the lungs. Blisters form and then pop in the lungs, the lungs fill with fluid and you die of dryland drowning. I do know for a fact that the insurgents did fire chemical mortars at us. They just were ineffective. It did suck though because we had to roll around with our MOPP suits and masks for like a week.
Posted by MasterQuinn on :
It's very strange to see a human body that is probably a day or a few days old melted to the bone and still wearing its clothes which look like they were only dirty.
I don't argue that the soldiers are in a horrible position in the sense that they have to follow orders and they are in life or death situations constatntly, I can't imagine what it's like.
But, you have to remember who put them there... Who put them there is responsible for everything and anything that happens due to their decisions.
Posted by 4Art on :
Most war crimes do eventually surface. It sometimes takes a while.
quote:Originally posted by MasterQuinn: Hey, the american media is talking about napalm and white phosphorus and how we use them.
US army retired col.
Posted by HILANDER on :
Oh, and the common grunt on the ground has no way of employing chems. They can call for fire, but that uually just involves an air or artillery strike.
Posted by 4Art on :
I don't really care who employs 'em. The results are the same. I do care who authorized their use, however.
Posted by 4Art on :
Veteran admits: "Bodies melted away before us."
Posted by 4Art on :
For those interested in learning more about white phosphorous, this is a good start.
Officials confirm dropping firebombs on Iraqi troops
Results are 'remarkably similar' to using napalm
By James W. Crawley UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
August 5, 2003
American jets killed Iraqi troops with firebombs – similar to the controversial napalm used in the Vietnam War – in March and April as Marines battled toward Baghdad.
Marine Corps fighter pilots and commanders who have returned from the war zone have confirmed dropping dozens of incendiary bombs near bridges over the Saddam Canal and the Tigris River. The explosions created massive fireballs.
"We napalmed both those (bridge) approaches," said Col. Randolph Alles in a recent interview. He commanded Marine Air Group 11, based at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station, during the war. "Unfortunately, there were people there because you could see them in the (cockpit) video.
"They were Iraqi soldiers there. It's no great way to die," he added. How many Iraqis died, the military couldn't say. No accurate count has been made of Iraqi war casualties.
The bombing campaign helped clear the path for the Marines' race to Baghdad.
During the war, Pentagon spokesmen disputed reports that napalm was being used, saying the Pentagon's stockpile had been destroyed two years ago.
Apparently the spokesmen were drawing a distinction between the terms "firebomb" and "napalm." If reporters had asked about firebombs, officials said yesterday they would have confirmed their use.
What the Marines dropped, the spokesmen said yesterday, were "Mark 77 firebombs." They acknowledged those are incendiary devices with a function "remarkably similar" to napalm weapons.
Rather than using gasoline and benzene as the fuel, the firebombs use kerosene-based jet fuel, which has a smaller concentration of benzene.
Hundreds of partially loaded Mark 77 firebombs were stored on pre-positioned ammunition ships overseas, Marine Corps officials said. Those ships were unloaded in Kuwait during the weeks preceding the war.
"You can call it something other than napalm, but it's napalm," said John Pike, defense analyst with GlobalSecurity.org, a nonpartisan research group in Alexandria, Va.
Although many human rights groups consider incendiary bombs to be inhumane, international law does not prohibit their use against military forces. The United States has not agreed to a ban against possible civilian targets.
"Incendiaries create burns that are difficult to treat," said Robert Musil, executive director of Physicians for Social Responsibility, a Washington group that opposes the use of weapons of mass destruction.
Musil described the Pentagon's distinction between napalm and Mark 77 firebombs as "pretty outrageous."
"That's clearly Orwellian," he added.
Developed during World War II and dropped on troops and Japanese cities, incendiary bombs have been used by American forces in nearly every conflict since. Their use became controversial during the Vietnam War when U.S. and South Vietnamese aircraft dropped millions of pounds of napalm. Its effects were shown in a Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph of Vietnamese children running from their burned village.
Before March, the last time U.S. forces had used napalm in combat was the Persian Gulf War, again by Marines.
During a recent interview about the bombing campaign in Iraq, Marine Corps Maj. Gen. Jim Amos confirmed aircraft dropped what he and other Marines continue to call napalm on Iraqi troops on several occasions. He commanded Marine jet and helicopter units involved in the Iraq war and leads the Miramar-based 3rd Marine Air Wing.
Miramar pilots familiar with the bombing missions pointed to at least two locations where firebombs were dropped.
Before the Marines crossed the Saddam Canal in central Iraq, jets dropped several firebombs on enemy positions near a bridge that would become the Marines' main crossing point on the road toward Numaniyah, a key town 40 miles from Baghdad.
Next, the bombs were used against Iraqis near a key Tigris River bridge, north of Numaniyah, in early April.
There were reports of another attack on the first day of the war.
Two embedded journalists reported what they described as napalm being dropped on an Iraqi observation post at Safwan Hill overlooking the Kuwait border.
Reporters for CNN and the Sydney (Australia) Morning Herald were told by unnamed Marine officers that aircraft dropped napalm on the Iraqi position, which was adjacent to one of the Marines' main invasion routes.
Their reports were disputed by several Pentagon spokesmen who said no such bombs were used nor did the United States have any napalm weapons.
The Pentagon destroyed its stockpile of napalm canisters, which had been stored near Camp Pendleton at the Fallbrook Naval Weapons Station, in April 2001.
Yesterday military spokesmen described what they see as the distinction between the two types of incendiary bombs. They said mixture used in modern firebombs is a less harmful mixture than Vietnam War-era napalm.
"This additive has significantly less of an impact on the environment," wrote Marine spokesman Col. Michael Daily, in an e-mailed information sheet provided by the Pentagon.
He added, "many folks (out of habit) refer to the Mark 77 as 'napalm' because its effect upon the target is remarkably similar."
In the e-mail, Daily also acknowledged that firebombs were dropped near Safwan Hill.
Alles, who oversaw the Safwan bombing raid, said 18 one-ton satellite-guided bombs, but no incendiary bombs, were dropped on the site.
Military experts say incendiary bombs can be an effective weapon in certain situations.
Firebombs are useful against dug-in troops and light vehicles, said GlobalSecurity's Pike.
"I used it routinely in Vietnam," said retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Trainor, now a prominent defense analyst. "I have no moral compunction against using it. It's just another weapon."
And, the distinctive fireball and smell have a psychological impact on troops, experts said.
"The generals love napalm," said Alles, who has transferred to Washington. "It has a big psychological effect."
"The generals love napalm," said Alles, who has transferred to Washington. "It has a big psychological effect."
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
HYLANDER, ya just have to learn to ignore these non-combat types.
It's better they here on the boards than behind you in a fire fight..
Ya just can't physicaly try to kick all they're ass's...Your knuckles get sore and then it's hard to cast when the Salmon and Steelhead are running.
They are not worth the bother, believe me, as a Nam Vet *been there done that*
Posted by 4Art on :
Did you even watch the video, Dusty?
Remember: The footage of the results of napalm use helped to turn American civilians against Vietnam then.
I don't doubt it will have the same result now.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
4Art, stick it where the Sun dosen't shine..DON'T START MESSING WITH THE VETS..
Show some class and take a hike...
Now I have to get back to work stock trading, just cool it before some people really get pissed off.
Posted by 4Art on :
I'm not messing with the vets, I want the Bush Administration held accountable for this genocide based on lies.
Did you even watch the video, Dusty?
Posted by 4Art on :
"Show some class?" LOL
Posted by 4Art on :
I completely agree, MasterQuinn.
I urge everyone to watch THIS VIDEO and make up their own minds.
quote:Originally posted by MasterQuinn: Would love to hear comments from the peanut gallery that condon the war on this video.
So, our government doing this is acceptable?
What would YOU think of americans if you were born in Iraq and someone came into your country and burned your family and children who were supposed to be liberating you?
Can you imagine the horror if you were there and tried to surrender only to see your family shot?
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
4Art, I don't need to view a video to understand what napalm does to people......
You can't smell it in a video. Nuff said.
Posted by 4Art on :
The video contains testimonials from Iraq War VETS.
Before you insulted me and accused me of "MESSING WITH THE VETS", you should have at least watched it.
The VETS in the video also have stories to tell. Or don't you care?
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: 4Art, stick it where the Sun dosen't shine..
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
Vets can be all over the map, when still in hot blood from combat, sometimes for years afterwards.
The way we feel about the politics of War changes as we vets age. So young troops may say many things contrary to the way they really feel.
Don't tell me about veterans of foriegn Wars.. You don't know diddly squat.
Posted by 4Art on :
Why the personal insults, dusty?
History has repeatedly shown us that, in war, the "I was just following orders" defense only applies to the side that "wins." One day that may not be us.
Posted by 4Art on :
I trust we will be satisfied with our government's definition of what is and isn't "torture" and what are and are not "chemical weapons" when the same standards are applied to our troops.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
Do you really want to keep going on this issue?
I don't have the time right now, I am to busy trading stocks.
But I'll be back if thats the way you want it.
Posted by 4Art on :
Absolutely, I'm looking forward to your insight.
Posted by 4Art on :
In the meantime, I urge everyone to view this video and judge for yourselves.
quote:Originally posted by 4Art: Absolutely, I'm looking forward to your insight.
------------------------------------------------- It's not insight your going to get.... Leave the Viet Nam Vets out of your personal agenda, your really pissing people off.
I am getting phone calls about you, and when I say drop it, I advise you to do so..
Posted by MasterQuinn on :
Why would someone not even try to comprehend anothers perception of the world we live in yet have a comment on something, making assumptions about their thoughts or reasons for doing something?
When you see a parent in the parking lot, and their kids screaming at them, what do you think?
The parent doesnt know what they are doing, they are hurting their child etc etc.
Change your perception.. If you have kids you know what I mean (and even then you'll still jump to conclusions about the persons motives and why they are acting like they are acting).
More times then not you'll realize you actually agree with the person in some sense and understand that person(s) is not attempting to slight who you think or what you think they really are.
4art is not attacking any vets. If you say a VETS voice matters, then you can not say anothers doesn't. It is the way THEY perceived what happened or how they feel about it.
Because 10 said something happened and 10 other said it didn't. What matters is WHY they were there for it to happen.
Get to the root of the problem not the result of the problem.
Otherwise you're doing nothing to solve the problem and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Like terrorism.. What is all of the terrorism based on?
Look at isreal and palenstein and go back through history and look at why the muslims want Jeruselum BACK.
Ask any psychologist. Find the root of the problem and WHY the results of it are happening, otherwise you're WASTING YOUR TIME.
Posted by 4Art on :
Are you threatening me?
Yeah, that'll work.
LOL
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: I am getting phone calls about you, and when I say drop it, I advise you to do so..
Posted by 4Art on :
Thanks again, MasterQuinn. We're certainly on the same wavelength on this subject!
quote:Originally posted by MasterQuinn: Why would someone not even try to comprehend anothers perception of the world we live in yet have a comment on something, making assumptions about their thoughts or reasons for doing something?
When you see a parent in the parking lot, and their kids screaming at them, what do you think?
The parent doesnt know what they are doing, they are hurting their child etc etc.
Change your perception.. If you have kids you know what I mean (and even then you'll still jump to conclusions about the persons motives and why they are acting like they are acting).
More times then not you'll realize you actually agree with the person in some sense and understand that person(s) is not attempting to slight who you think or what you think they really are.
4art is not attacking any vets. If you say a VETS voice matters, then you can not say anothers doesn't. It is the way THEY perceived what happened or how they feel about it.
Because 10 said something happened and 10 other said it didn't. What matters is WHY they were there for it to happen.
Get to the root of the problem not the result of the problem.
Otherwise you're doing nothing to solve the problem and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Like terrorism.. What is all of the terrorism based on?
Look at isreal and palenstein and go back through history and look at why the muslims want Jeruselum BACK.
Ask any psychologist. Find the root of the problem and WHY the results of it are happening, otherwise you're WASTING YOUR TIME.
I know 4 art is not attacking vets, if he was I would not even bother to try and answer him. I try and answer in a simple and short way when there is no short or simple way, just like we all do.
Posted by 4Art on :
Could you let Dusty know that, before he has me killed? LOL
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: I know 4 art is not attacking vets, if he was I would not even bother to try and answer him. I try and answer in a simple and short way when there is no short or simple way, just like we all do.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
quote:Originally posted by 4Art: Could you let Dusty know that, before he has me killed? LOL
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: I know 4 art is not attacking vets, if he was I would not even bother to try and answer him. I try and answer in a simple and short way when there is no short or simple way, just like we all do.
------------------------------------------------- I don't kill folks, just send them prickly pear cactus when they are starving. LOL
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Dusty has a good sense of humor at times, he will laugh at your answer--then kill you.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
Hey, I got a stock runing, prickly pear cactus for all!!!!
And I don't want to hear sum smart azz say, *Well maybe you should catch it before it runs outa the door*!!
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
And yes 4Art, I think you know where you can put the Prickly Pear Cactus if ya get me PO'D again.LOL
Posted by glassman on :
hey 4art.... sometimes? less is more....
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
Torture? banned to the QBID thread for life.....
That would be enough to get any insurgent talking.
Posted by bdgee on :
Some people are getting a bit more than touchy and loosing perspective.
Posted by Ramius on :
quote:Originally posted by MasterQuinn: Why would someone not even try to comprehend anothers perception of the world we live in yet have a comment on something, making assumptions about their thoughts or reasons for doing something?
When you see a parent in the parking lot, and their kids screaming at them, what do you think?
The parent doesnt know what they are doing, they are hurting their child etc etc.
Change your perception.. If you have kids you know what I mean (and even then you'll still jump to conclusions about the persons motives and why they are acting like they are acting).
More times then not you'll realize you actually agree with the person in some sense and understand that person(s) is not attempting to slight who you think or what you think they really are.
4art is not attacking any vets. If you say a VETS voice matters, then you can not say anothers doesn't. It is the way THEY perceived what happened or how they feel about it.
Because 10 said something happened and 10 other said it didn't. What matters is WHY they were there for it to happen.
Get to the root of the problem not the result of the problem.
Otherwise you're doing nothing to solve the problem and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Like terrorism.. What is all of the terrorism based on?
Look at isreal and palenstein and go back through history and look at why the muslims want Jeruselum BACK.
Ask any psychologist. Find the root of the problem and WHY the results of it are happening, otherwise you're WASTING YOUR TIME.
Quinn...I agree with most of this. Here's the part I disagree with...
"Because 10 said something happened and 10 other said it didn't. What matters is WHY they were there for it to happen."
Here's the problem...when you're(we're, or whoever)talking about events that did or did not happen, the truth is important. Perception or perspective doesn't change what did or did not happen.
The only reason I'm saying this is because it seems that in the arguments for and against the war we're seeing a lot of half truths, semi-reliable accounts, and situations taken out of context.
Posted by Ramius on :
I watched the entire video, although I admit a few times I had to turn the sound off because I"m at work and didn't want to disturb those around me.
I'm not calling anybody a liar, but taking this account as "the way it happened" is narrow minded.
It could all very well be true, but here's why I'm skeptical.
1. The source website pasted here on Allstocks is "The information clearing house", with a tag line, "news you won't find on CNN". There's probably a reason we won't find this news on CNN; can't be substantiated? unreliable sources? I don't know.
2. All of the pictures of the "melted" bodied didn't appear melted to me at all. They looked like dead bodies which were badly decomposed, which may explain why the skin was "melted", but the clothes were intact.
3. One of the ex soldiers speaking said he heard the order over the radio that the phosphorus was going to be used in Fallujah. I don't think he said the order specified it was going to be used as a weapon. As stated elsewhere, the phosphorus is normally used to illuminate a dark sky.
4. If they did use it as a weapon, how did they ensure that all US soldiers were "clear" before using it. In a battle zone with fire fights going on would this be difficult?
5. Is it possible that some civilian did get some of the phosphorus on them due to a mis-fire into sky, or wind blowing the wrong way, or some other unintentional means.
Just my point of view, I may be wrong.
Posted by 4Art on :
That's certainly the US media's take.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: hey 4art.... sometimes? less is more....
Posted by 4Art on :
Here's the BBC's Article on the same video.
US 'uses incendiary arms' in Iraq
Italian state TV, Rai, has broadcast a documentary accusing the US military of using white phosphorus bombs against civilians in the Iraqi city of Falluja.
Rai says this amounts to the illegal use of chemical arms, though the bombs are considered incendiary devices.
Eyewitnesses and ex-US soldiers say the weapon was used in built-up areas in the insurgent-held city.
The US military denies this, but admits using white phosphorus bombs in Iraq to illuminate battlefields.
Washington is not a signatory of an international treaty restricting the use of white phosphorus devices.
WHITE PHOSPHORUS
Spontaneously flammable chemical used for battlefield illumination
Contact with particles causes burning of skin and flesh
Use of incendiary weapons prohibited for attacking civilians (Protocol III of Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons) Protocol III not signed by US
Transmission of the documentary comes a day after the arrival of Iraqi President Jalal Talabani on a five-day official visit to Italy.
It also coincides with the first anniversary of the US-led assault on Falluja, which displaced most of the city's 300,000 population and left many of its buildings destroyed.
The documentary was shown on Rai's rolling news channel, with a warning that the some of the footage was disturbing.
The future of the 3,000-strong Italian eacekeeping contingent in Iraq is the subject of a political tug-of-war, says the BBC's David Willey in Rome.
'Destroyed evidence'
The documentary begins with formerly classified footage of the Americans using napalm bombs during the Vietnam war.
It then shows a series of photographs from Falluja of corpses with the flesh burnt off but clothes still intact - which it says is consistent with the effects of white phosphorus on humans.
Jeff Englehart, described as a former US soldier who served in Falluja, tells of how he heard orders for white phosphorus to be deployed over military radio - and saw the results.
"Burned bodies, burned women, burned children; white phosphorus kills indiscriminately... When it makes contact with skin, then it's absolutely irreversible damage, burning flesh to the bone," he says.
Last December, the US state department issued a denial of what it called "widespread myths" about the use of illegal weapons in Falluja.
"Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Falluja, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters," the US statement said.
However, the Rai film also alleges that Washington has systematically attempted to destroy filmed evidence of the alleged use of white phosphorus on civilians in Falluja.
Italian public opinion has been consistently against the war and the Rai documentary can only reinforce calls for a pullout of Italian soldiers as soon as possible, our correspondent says.
Both the Italian government and opposition leaders are talking about a phased withdrawal in 2006.
President Talabani and the US say the continued presence of multi-national forces in Iraq is essential.
US used white phosphorus on Iraqi civilians-report
By Phil Stewart
ROME (Reuters) - U.S. forces in Iraq have used incendiary white phosphorus against civilians and a firebomb similar to napalm against military targets, Italian state-run broadcaster RAI reported on Tuesday.
A RAI documentary showed images of bodies recovered after a November 2004 offensive by U.S. troops on the town of Falluja, which it said proved the use of white phosphorus against men, women and children who were burned to the bone.
"I do know that white phosphorus was used," said Jeff Englehart in the RAI documentary, which identified him as a former soldier in the U.S. 1st Infantry Division in Iraq.
The U.S. military says white phosphorus is a conventional weapon and says it does not use any chemical arms.
"Burned bodies. Burned children and burned women," said Englehart, who RAI said had taken part in the Falluja offensive. "White phosphorus kills indiscriminately."
A U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad said he did not recall white phosphorus being used in Falluja. "I do not recall the use of white phosphorus during the offensive operations in Falluja in the fall of 2004," Lieutenant Colonel Steven Boylan said.
An incendiary device, white phosphorus is used by the military to conceal troop movements with smoke, mark targets or light up combat areas. The use of incendiary weapons against civilians has been banned by the Geneva Convention since 1980.
The United States did not sign the relevant protocol to the convention, a U.N. official in New York said.
The Falluja offensive aimed to crush followers of al Qaeda's Iraq leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, said to have linked up with local insurgents in the Sunni Arab city west of Baghdad.
Some Western newspapers reported at the time that white phosporus had been used during the offensive.
In the documentary called "Falluja: The Hidden Massacre", RAI also said U.S. forces used the Mark 77 firebomb, a weapon similar to napalm, on military targets in Iraq in 2003.
It cited a letter it said came from British Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram, claiming 30 MK 77 weapons were used on military targets in Iraq between March 31 and April 2, 2003.
Italy has nearly 3,000 troops in Iraq despite strong opposition to their presence there.
Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is trailing in opinion polls ahead of April elections, and his center-left rivals have vowed to eventually pull troops out of Iraq.
I posted this on the other thread but since there appear to be two identical topics on the same subject I'll post it here as well.
Note: According to the Geneva Conventions, the Law of war, neither napalm or white phosphorus are chemical weapons.
4Art,
The attack on Fallujah was carried out with advance warning given to the civilians in the town. It was surrounded and they were given the option to leave. Article neglected to mention this
****************
The Times November 02, 2004
American firepower in place as battle for Fallujah looms From James Hider, near Fallujah
ONLY a few miles separate the rebel city of Fallujah from the sprawling complex of US Marine bases. While the Iraqi city is steadily emptying of people, the American camps are rapidly filling up with extra men and armour, ready for what is expected to be a fight for the very soul of Iraq. Almost as soon as the United States elections are over, the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, reinforced by army units specially drafted in from across Iraq, is expected to mount a massive attack on Fallujah.
Skirmishes have begun already. Every day F18 fighter-bombers screech up from carriers in the Persian Gulf to bomb suspected guerrilla safehouses or mortar positions. Eight Marines were killed when a suicide car bomber rammed their convoy at the weekend. And from the military camps, the boom of outgoing mortar shells or the occasional thump of an incoming round regularly breaks the silence of the autumnal desert. In chow halls, Iraqi National Guards soldiers share hi-carb meals with Marines in training for the showdown.
Few doubt that an attack is imminent after Iyad Allawi, the interim Iraqi Prime Minister, gave warning on Sunday that his patience was wearing thin and that the stop-start talks to defuse the crisis were in their “final phase”. Guerrilla sources told The Times that Mr Allawi had given up on talks weeks ago, storming into negotiations and telling the rebels’ representatives: “It is too late, the train of war is already in Fallujah.”
Publicly Mr Allawi has called on the people of Fallujah to hand over Abu Musab al- Zarqawi, the terrorist mastermind who has kidnapped and bombed his way to a $25 million (Ł14 million) bounty, matched only by the price on the head of Osama bin Laden. The city elders have replied that even the Americans have been unable to stop al-Zarqawi and his powerful network. They cannot be expected to step in where the superpower has failed.
In anticipation of the battle, and with memories of April’s bloody and abortive invasion still fresh, as many as two thirds of Fallujah’s 280,000 residents have fled, leaving a ghost town where American commanders expect to confront up to 5,000 rebels and foreign fighters. Regular airstrikes have left many of the buildings, including Fallujah’s renowned kebab shop, as nothing more than piles of dust.
“Whoever looks around Fallujah now can only feel sadness. The damage is so heavy the suburbs look like they were hit by an earthquake,” Mohammed al-Alwani, a bank employee, said.
The Iraqi fighters are a mixture of Islamic extremists, Saddam Hussein loyalists, fiercely territorial tribesmen and criminal gangs, according to Marine intelligence officers. Their allegiances, goals and tactics are constantly shifting: the increase in brutal attacks on Iraqis by the foreign Islamists are showing signs of straining relations between those cells and the Iraqi resistance.
Both sides have had months to prepare for battle. The Marines invaded in April after four American security contractors were burnt, mutilated and hung from a bridge. In the face of the toughest combat since the Vietnam War, with casualties rising on both sides, US commander ordered a halt to its three-week offensive and the creation of a local militia to enforce law and order.
But the Fallujah Brigades were an abject failure, siding with the guerrillas and, in many cases, handing over their weapons to them. Fallujah became a staging point for guerrillas heading across the western and northern areas of the country, pushing a wedge of insurgency through western Baghdad and to the heart of the capital.
With Iraqi elections looming in January, the interim Government has decided that it has to regain control of the rebellious Sunni Triangle or risk seeing the entire US-backed democratic project in Iraq crumble.
“We are gearing up to do an operation and when we’re told to go, we’ll go, and we’ll whack them,” Brigadier-General Dennis Hajlik, the Marines’ deputy commander, said. “As for the number of troops, it’ll be enough to get the job done in a decisive fashion.”
Iraqi forces will be involved in the operation to give it an “Iraqi face”, he said. The Iraqi troops have been in intensive training since the April uprising, when up to 80 per cent of those fighting in Fallujah melted away.
However, the guerrillas have also had months to prepare for the onslaught. Resistance groups say that they have been moving more weapons along the rat-runs through the southwestern desert from Saudi Arabia and along the River Euphrates from Syria. The Black Watch have been deployed to the south of Fallujah to stop more weapons and men heading in or out once the battle starts.
Among the US Marines morale is high, but many admit to understandable pre-battle jitters. “It is a scary thought,” said Cameron Begbie, a 23-year-old Marines medic from Fresno, California, who arrived here a month ago and has never seen combat.
But he knows what he is fighting for and is determined to see the job through. “It’s a city that needs to be liberated to ensure elections go down in the rest of the country. You can’t have a free country when you have pockets of resistance,” he said, adding that few of his comrades believed that the fight would be a quick one.
One of the key tests will be what happens to Fallujah after the battle. Upriver along the Euphrates, US forces have never left Ramadi, but the provincial capital is a virtual battlefield, where gunfights erupt almost daily. The Marines will have to install an effective Iraqi force in the volatile tribal cities to quell violence and allow reconstruction to start and the economy to revive.
Until then the Marines are writing letters home and trying to concentrate on the fight ahead. “I spend as much time as I can with my guys, let them know: ‘I’m with you, you’re with me’,” Corpsman Begbie said. “We’re all nervous, we all want to get back to our families safe and sound.”
*****************
White Phosphorus is not a chemical weapon, nor is its use prohibited by the Geneva Conventions.
chemical weapons
Prohibited under the 1925 Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare.
Incendiary agents such as napalm and phosphorus are not considered to be CW agents since they achieve their effect mainly through thermal energy. Certain types of smoke ammunition are not classed as a chemical weapon since the poisonous effect is not the reason for their use.
Art. 50. Definition of civilians and civilian population
1. A civilian is any person who does not belong to one of the categories of persons referred to in Article 4 (A) (1), (2), (3) and (6) of the Third Convention and in Article 43 of this Protocol. In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian.
2. The civilian population comprises all persons who are civilians.
3. The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character.
Art. 51. - Protection of the civilian population
1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.
2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.
3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.
4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are: (a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective; (b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or (c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol;
and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate: (a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;
and
(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.
6. Attacks against the civilian population or civilians by way of reprisals are prohibited.
7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.
8. Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57.
Posted by 4Art on :
New, improved and more lethal: son of napalm
By Ben Cubby August 8, 2003
The Pentagon no longer officially uses the brand-name 'Napalm', but a similar sticky, inflammable substance known as 'fuel-gel mixture', contained in weapons called Mark-77 fire bombs, was dropped on Iraqi troops near the Iraq-Kuwait border at the start of the war.
"I can confirm that Mark-77 fire bombs were used in that general area," Colonel Mike Daily of the US Marine Corps said.
Colonel Daily said that US stocks of Vietnam-era napalm had been phased out, but that the fuel-gel mixture in the Mark-77s had "similar destructive characteristics."
"Many folks (out of habit) refer to the Mark-77 as 'napalm' because its effect upon the target is remarkably similar," he said.
On March 22nd, correspondent Lindsay Murdoch, who was travelling with the US Marines, had reported that napalm was used in an attack on Iraqi troops at Safwan Hill, near the Kuwait border. Murdoch's account was based on statements by two US Marine Corps officers on the ground.
Lieutenant-Commander Jeff A. Davis, USN, Office of the Assistant Secretary for Defense (Public Affairs) had called Murdoch's story "patently false".
"The US took napalm out of service in the 1970's. We completed the destruction of our last batch of napalm on April 4, 2001, and no longer maintain any stocks of napalm," Commander Davis told smh online. He was apparently referring to Vietnam-era Napalm-B, which consisted of inflammable fuel thickened with polystyrene and benzene.
The inflammable fuel in Mark-77 fire bombs is thickened with slightly different chemicals, and is believed to contain oxidizers, which make it harder to extinguish than Napalm-B.
Neither weapon technically contains napalm. The chemical mixture that became known as 'napalm' - a combination of naphthalene and palmitate - was used only in the earliest versions of the weapon.
Napalm was banned by United Nations convention in 1980, but the US never signed the agreement. Use of Mark-77 fire bombs is considered legal by the US military.
Ms. Toni McNeal, a spokesperson for Rock Island Arsenal, in Illinois, said the facility is currently producing a further 500 Mark-77s for the US Marine Corps.
She said she did not consider the Mark-77s to be napalm bombs.
But Mark-77s are referred to as 'napalm' in some current US inventories and public affairs documents.
A US Navy public affairs document dated 22/10/99 says that the US Navy no longer uses napalm but "the US Marine Corps has a requirement and uses it at ranges at Yuma and Twenty-Nine Palms."
Twenty-Nine Palms, in California, is the home base of some of the Marine Corps units that took part in the attack on Safwan Hill in Iraq.
Captain Robert Crum, USMC, Public Affairs spokesman for Twenty-Nine Palms, said: "Mk 77s are not routinely used in training at 29 Palms. Yet it would be inappropriate to say that they are never - or never would be - used in training here.
"The average young Marine may be unfamiliar with the technical nomenclature, and probably does refer to this munition by the vernacular 'napalm'."
The usual reason for not finding a report on CNN is because it wasn't edited or oked by the Republican National Committee. Certainly reliability is a major concern at CNN and when they discover a reliable source that isn't far right wing, they lie aout it and deny knowledge.
Phosphorous, when used to illuminate the dark sky is not in the place that is to be illuminated, but far far above it. Those artillery rounds have other descriptions and are not refered to as phosphorous and would not be said to be "in" the place, but over it. Some tracer rounds also use phosphorous, but the common soldier does not speak of those as phosphorous (and probably has no idea what causes them to light up). There is no other reasonable or practical use for phosphorous, as phosphorous, in open battle, unless it is what is supposed. If they said "in the town" it is unreasonable to contrive some other meaning or intent, they meant "in the town" not over it, near it or some other innocent thing.
In Order to make sure that your own soldiers were clear of the area, so as not to get hurt by the stuff, it would be sensable to tell them that phosphorous was going to be used in the area so they could get away from it. Surely if they did, it is reasonable to learn from one of them that he heard that phosphorous was to be used theere.
It is crtainly possible that some civilian got phosphorous on them due to "mis-fire into sky, or wind blowing the wrong way, or some other unintentional means". But only if there was pohosphorous being used there in the first place.
Yes,
"Just (your) point of view, I may be wrong."
And so also may your view be wrong when you see that "the pictures of the "melted" bodied didn't appear melted to me at all." Maybe you didn't want to see what was there? Maybe you are right, but it sure doesn't look to be so.
But consider, what if what you want to be true is not and it is exactly what it appears to be to others?
Posted by 4Art on :
Exactly bdgee,
I always check foreign news sources. The US media is generally much too "embedded" (ie. "in bed") with the corporate world and various agencies of the government.
You can occasionally get some good reporting on PBS, although the FCC is has taken steps to minimize even that.
Posted by 4Art on :
See the video that made Dusty and DTW threaten me! Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
4 Art- The problem with a lot of us veterans is we lost our innocence about war a long time ago. It is not a good thing it just happens. I'm glad people have this innocence, hopefully more people can keep it. But if you think some video is going to shock many of us, it not, because we have seen much worse up close and personnel. The closest we can get you to this would be 911 and that was just 1 day. Even the soldiers that think there ready to go to war after all their training are never ready for the true reality when it comes. It usually takes many months before they really know what's going on that was why the casuality rate was so much higher in Vietnam in the first 3 months in country. That's why they called them FNG's
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
When I first got in-country my brand new fatigues made me a non person{ FNG }
After awhile when my boonie hat and fatigues aged a bit I looked at FNG'S the same way I was looked apon..
Brand new? we were Charly bait.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
4 Art needs to slow down his posts, I am not sure which one I am on,feels like I'm lost in the jungle.
Posted by HILANDER on :
Yeah, he is good at spamming.
Posted by RiescoDiQui on :
it's all he is good at.
Posted by 4Art on :
I never spam. Look it up.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
The other thing 4 Art, when you post pictures like this and then follow with these statements, you are pushing some veterans buttons. Some Vietnam Veterans went through bad experiances when they came home because of these things. It's your choice but be prepared for a bad response.
Posted by bdgee on :
At least he is good at something.
Posted by 4Art on :
Thanks, I think. LOL
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: At least he is good at something.
Posted by 4Art on :
I agree with you there, IWISHIHAD. However I do not intend to offend the war vets in any way, and they have every right to not watch the video, which is clearly labeled as graphic.
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: The other thing 4 Art, when you post pictures like this and then follow with these statements, you are pushing some veterans buttons. Some Vietnam Veterans went through bad experiances when they came home because of these things. It's your choice but be prepared for a bad response.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I know you try and understand what we are saying ,but it is not the graphic part that will bother most of them. It was the title that was given to them because of pictures like this.
Posted by 4Art on :
So... you're saying pictures like this should just be buried?
I can't condone that in any way.
Posted by HILANDER on :
no way, I have all kinds of cool pics.
Posted by 4Art on :
So what are you saying? I should just shut up and watch Fox News?
I can't condone that in any way. Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I am not telling you anything other than another way of looking at what you are doing, that's your choice.
Posted by HILANDER on :
No not Fox. I can't even watch it and keep a straight face.
Posted by 4Art on :
I see that side of it, but maybe people being offended is the "collateral damage" caused in the effort to get these issues heard.
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: I am not telling you anything other than another way of looking at what you are doing, that's your choice.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I guess what your saying is that you want the Iraq veterans to be labled the same way Vietnam Veterans were. You seem to think that these few pictures are what the war is all about. If you think these pictures are going to change something good luck.
Posted by bdgee on :
A whole generation was born and has had children of their own since the Viet Nam war ended. It is time you stopped dwelling on what people said to you then and blaming that on people you have no good reason to believe were part of that (in many cases, as I suspect is happening now, people that were not alive then to have done anything to you). If you expect to be respected and to have you views respected, the way to that goal is not through threats and name calling and attacking of people that never showed you any disrespect. You have no right to expect respect for your opinions if you begin by declaring anyone else to not have any right to an opinion. A person has every right to an opinion and to voice that opinion without being subjected to ridicule and insult from emotionally troubld bitter people whose only contribution to the subject is to insult someone.
Posted by 4Art on :
IWISHIHAD,
No, I don't think any US Soldier deserves to be called a "baby killer." (That is what we're talking about, isn't it?)
But Donald Rumsfeld? I'm not so sure.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
4Art has a problem, it's called diarrea of the mouth.....
In his case, of the keyboard...
He plays the game of the caring, while all along he just spews a sophisticated hatred..
4Art, I think you are a troubled person, as the night wears on I am begining to see a pattern of someone who just can't grasp the humanity involved in supporting the troops and respecting America....
I don't think you are fighting us, I think you are fighting with yourself.
Have you lost someone to violence?
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Bdgee Once again you fill in the blanks to fit your views. So how do you think we should protect our troops? What is your background in the military? What do you base your views other than BS? Of course knowing you there will not be a answer.
Posted by 4Art on :
No I haven't lost anyone to violence.
You're ahead of me in the "troubled" department, I suspect. Especially if you drank much of that water from the contaminated 50 gallon barrel that had been used to transport dioxin.
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: 4Art, I think you are a troubled person,
Posted by bdgee on :
I don't deserve that insult. I ask for general respect and courtesy and nothing more. In return I get insulted.
Posted by 4Art on :
These guys are the ones that spew hatred, bdgee.
Take 'em even a little below the surface in the critical thinking department and they freak out.
Posted by 4Art on :
Both Colin Powell, US Secretary of State, and Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's closest adviser, made clear before September 11 2001 that Saddam Hussein was no threat - to America, Europe or the Middle East.
quote:4Art, I think you are a troubled person, as the night wears on I am begining to see a pattern of someone who just can't grasp the humanity involved in supporting the troops and respecting America....
What does "supporting our troops and respecting America" mean?
What do you do to support the troops? Make kind remarks and say good job? Never speak of the atrocities that happen during war?
Respecting America? You're joking right? The people who are destroying this countries constitution and trading your freedoms for securities should be rewarded and backed up?
How about, opening your eyes and seeing through the LIES you've been fed and face the FACTS that your government is corrupt and abuses its power for profit?
Maybe in your lifetime you'll see complete Totalitarism in america and then maybe you will change your mind.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Keep digging 4Art... Pretty soon the hole will deep enough to bury you in.
Posted by 4Art on :
Keep digging NaturalResources... Pretty soon the hole will deep enough to bury you in.
-------------------- "si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes."
Posted by 4Art on :
I love my country. That's why I work for change.
quote:Originally posted by MasterQuinn:
quote:4Art, I think you are a troubled person, as the night wears on I am begining to see a pattern of someone who just can't grasp the humanity involved in supporting the troops and respecting America....
What does "supporting our troops and respecting America" mean?
What do you do to support the troops? Make kind remarks and say good job? Never speak of the atrocities that happen during war?
Respecting America? You're joking right? The people who are destroying this countries constitution and trading your freedoms for securities should be rewarded and backed up?
How about, opening your eyes and seeing through the LIES you've been fed and face the FACTS that your government is corrupt and abuses its power for profit?
Maybe in your lifetime you'll see complete Totalitarism in america and then maybe you will change your mind.
Posted by MasterQuinn on :
I shoulds point out when I said
"Respecting America? You're joking right? The people who are destroying this countries constitution and trading your freedoms for securities should be rewarded and backed up?"
I don't mean americans. I mean the administration in place.. Before I get attacked.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
quote:Originally posted by 4Art: No I haven't lost anyone to violence.
You're ahead of me in the "troubled" department, I suspect. Especially if you drank much of that water from the contaminated 50 gallon barrel that had been used to transport dioxin.
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: 4Art, I think you are a troubled person,
------------------------------------------------ Actually you are right, my spleen had to be removed years later because of it..
I am one of a group 5, 2 still living, that the VA treats and monitors. The Evans Syndrome that took me down 28 years after Nam, is very rare and was most likely caused by Dioxon exsposure in Nam.
And yes the Almighty has been a strength to my Wife, family and myself..
In your zeal to make a name for yourself and spew your self-rightous intellectual garbage you are only breeding contempt for 4Art...
Many of us are getting damn sick and tired of you.
You ran with a pack of dogs that attacked Wallace and me on another thread one night, do you think I have forgotten that.
One of your buddies even attacked me for being a disabled Veteran, and you piled on.
So, yes I see the suddle attempt at dispuraging me again.
I thought you were to much of a light weight to have lost someone close to violence, because if you had, your attitude would be more tempered.
Just what makes you think your so damn important around here?
The only stock I have ever seen you on, is QBID. To my knowledge you have never tried to pick a stock other than pumping that POS QBID.
So tell me, what use are you?
Posted by 4Art on :
So tell me, what use are you?
Please don't attack me for what "one of my buddies" may have said. That's insane.
Aw, let it out Dusty. Whatever blows your hair back. I even started a thread for you to do just that!
Thats it, listen you no good piece a crap.. Back off.
Posted by 4Art on :
Why do I threaten you so much?
Posted by bdgee on :
MasterQuinn,
Yes, I see you recognize the need for stating your position so specifically, before your position is twisted into something it never was.
It is sad that there are those so obsessed with contorting honest and heartfelt concerns for the most fundamental precepts of society and the Constitution that they will construe it to agrue against the very documents itself.
And they do so for the sake of the Party, the all powerful Party. Party loyalty over all else has destroyed more than one republic.
And yes you are right....it is the nest of vermin that infests the Administration (assisted by factions in Congress and the Courts) that are doing heinous wrongs in the name of our country.
Posted by 4Art on :
Well said, bdgee.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
quote:Originally posted by 4Art: Why do I threaten you so much?
------------------------------------------------- I'm telling ya, back off... Or I will tell ya what I really think you are.
Posted by 4Art on :
Please do! I've even provided a thread for just such a purpose.
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: I'm telling ya, back off... Or I will tell ya what I really think you are.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
You have have no idea punk, how PO'D some people are getting towards you...
Posted by 4Art on :
Let it out! It's healthy.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Bdgee I assumed you were telling me I was bitter and name calling. I stated that Vietnam Vets. in general had bad experiances because of pictures like these. I never did , but I am very sensitive to these issues concerning other vets of all wars. I am not sure what you consider name calling point it out to me. Understand one thing I am not here to gain anyone's respect if I do fine if not that's fine to. The one thing I don't understand is that some of old farts as stated by someone else are suppose to be getting stuck in our ways, but it appears that some of you young dudes don't want to hear any of the truth if it does not fit your opinion's.
Posted by HILANDER on :
All right Art, it's on now. Look, you sanctimonious POS who isn't man enough to have worn a uniform, you spew all of this crap about what is happening but never have even been in the military. Your opinion on the matter is moot. You haven't been there or done it so shut up. Folks are getting sick of you around here. I may not agree with Glass or Bdgee but at least they have some class. I guess that's because they have both served, understand, and know what it's like. Something you will never know.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
Hilander, the pos does have a purpose, practice for ya!
When they are dumb enough to get in your face in real time, just think about 4Art and how pathetic they are.
It may save ya from doing some jail time, like I had to.
The charges were dropped and I walked, but they nearly cost me my job.
Washington is full of greenies and they are really starting to get wound up again, control your temper...At the fishing hole LOL
Posted by bdgee on :
IWISHIHAD,
I am very sensitive to anyone that denies another the right to participate in the society, in any way. I am MORE than sensitive to someone claiming some special position such that only those that have such a positioin may contribute and participate in the society or some part of it.
You don't debate or discuss. The only subjects you ever participate in are to quote the Party line and then provide insulting remarks to the effect that someone has no right to an opinion differing from that because you were military (a condition you do not suffer alone!) and they weren't.
First of all, you don't know that they were or not military.
Second if you did know, it wouldn't contribute to the discussion at hand.
Third, the assumption on your part that someone isn't smart enough to participate becaues they were or were not in the military is both absurd and crude, at best.
Forth, you do not have greater rights or privileges by having been in the military than does someone who hasn't and the constant claim that you do is insulting to the Constitution and the Nation as well as the individual you are attacking.
As far as you being old and me being a "young dude that doesn't want to know the truth", you again don't know what you are talking about.
If you have a valid point, make it, and see if it stands up to test. But get off the threats and name calling and insults you lean on in lieu of substance. Try respect for people and providing information rather than attacking. Who knows, you might be able to sway those opinions you don't like if you were willing to communicate and provide information.
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
IWISHIHAD, we should know better than get mixed up in this stuff......I mean WE should really really really know better........
As Nam Vets, we are a special fraternity, and you know that.... And all the argueing in the world with the radical left always ends up the same way.. The same is true for the radical right.
In the future I am not going to waste my time on them, unless I can some how get paid for my time .LOLLOL
The fact is, some of these cats, just don't have the horsepower or the price of the ticket to run with us..So I guess that makes us elitists. lol
Glassman has paid his dues big time as well, he is combat certifiable. hehe
It's weird, but sometimes I think they are envious and jealous of us...
Posted by 4Art on :
Edited for brevity. LOL Posted by 4Art on :
Thank God for that!
quote:Originally posted by HILANDER: All right Art, it's on now. Look, you sanctimonious POS who isn't man enough to have worn a uniform, you spew all of this crap about what is happening but never have even been in the military. Your opinion on the matter is moot. You haven't been there or done it so shut up. Folks are getting sick of you around here. I may not agree with Glass or Bdgee but at least they have some class. I guess that's because they have both served, understand, and know what it's like. Something you will never know.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Bdgee- Once again you talk in circles and say nothing. You do your best to attack people. I believe your the one that called me a emotionally trouble bitter person. This seems to be the game you play. Your the type of person that only wants his view to be heard. I have seen the crap you play on this board on other people. Maybe I have talked to much about Vietnam as a referance point, although I have not seen you referance anything.I guess I should quit talking about it, but I feel it is similiar to Iraq combat. Some one had ask me at some point asked me to clarify my statements with some fact. I was never that anxious to talk about it anyway. Any time your in the corner you pull the kind of crap you pulled on me.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I agree dustoff, I don't know how I got started They want to know but they really don't. How dumb of me.
Posted by 4Art on :
I always appreciate your views, IWISHIHAD.
HILANDER, on the other hand, is just a little too "combat ready" for my taste...
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
quote:Originally posted by 4Art: I always appreciate your views, IWISHIHAD.
HILANDER, on the other hand, is just a little too "combat ready" for my taste...
------------------------------------------------- 4Art, I wouldn't road race with HILANDER if I was you, he Knows how to drive a M1 Tank... He knows how to use that big gun sticking out of the turret as well.
Posted by BuyTex on :
C'mon, guys--Hilander is a sweetheart...nuthing wrong with an ol boy who just wants to make a good trade now n then...
Posted by Ramius on :
wow, last night was exciting around here.
Posted by 4Art on :
Sure was, Ramius! I just hope everyone got a chance to see the video. If not, here it is.
4ART wants to play happily in a field of daisies, unable to accept that we live in a time of daisy cutters. True, if their desires were the rule of the land they would get their wish. Our enemies would gladly provide that field of daisies, and make certain every single American - liberal or conservative - was pushing them up
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
It would be nice, if just for a few days, 4ART would recall that he's an American first and a liberal second.
Posted by 4Art on :
It would be nice, if just for a few days, CashCowMoo would recall that he's an American first and a fascist second.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
LOL