Liberals are now looking into impeaching Rove - investigating whether high Bush officials, like Rove, can be impeached.
Glasmann and Purl Gurl have said things like Rove compromised our national security, is a criminal and a traitor, and other liberal lies.
Plame was not an undecover agent, as defined by the law prohibiting revealing names of CIA undercover agents. Plame and Wilson were working together and were Kerry supporters against the idea of toppling Saddam - Plame (not Cheney as Wilson later lied to congress about) instigated the CIA to send her husband Wilson to Niger, and wanted him to dispel the notion that Saddam was trying to get uranium. This is in contrast to the fact that Saddam had earlier (in the 90's) sought to do just that. If anyone has acted improperly in all this, it is Plame and Wilson.
And what about Sandy Berger who violated national security laws, illegally sneaking out and taking home classified documents for the purpose of obstructing a congressional investigation and influencing the outcome of an investigation?
Oh, he was a democrat not a republican.
What about Hillary Clinton who stole and locked classified material about JFK's wrongdoing (that were more serious than Nixon's Watergate) in order to obstruct justice?
Oh, she was a democrat not a republican.
When the demos do wrong they get a pass.
When the Repubs do nothing wrong, they get crucified.
The negative do-nothing-but-obstruct-and-destroy politics of liberals is sickening. Read glassman's and Purl Gurl's posts to see what I mean.
Liberals are part of the problem, not of the solution.
Posted by glassman on :
Art: Glasmann and Purl Gurl have said things like Rove compromised our national security, is a criminal and a traitor, and other liberal lies.
glassman:
why don't you just speak for yourself, or at least get your quotes correct art....
you show a serious lack of ability to comprehend what i write.... i have never said Rove is a criminal or a traitor.... YOU DID..
you can't even get facts straight off a page...
i'm beginning to think your mommy should take away your computer priveledges...
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
I said Rove is a traitor, and he is. Rove chose to compromise the security of one of our CIA agents. That is federal crime and is treason.
Rove's history is full of crime. His crimes are documented and factual just as are crimes committed by Bush.
Problem with Bush is his daddy secreted away all documentation into his presidential library. Documentation of Bush's crimes are now sealed and unavailable to the public, in the interest of national security.
Give me a break.
Bush is harboring a traitor, all know this, just as we know Bush lied when he told America he would "fire" anyone leaking sensitive information. Rove is still standing right behind Bush, whispering in Bush's ear. Bush is a liar, proven many times.
Simpson is murderer. Blake is murderer. Jackson is a child molestor. Under law, said innocent as a result of fancy lawyers, not justice.
Rove is a traitor. Bush is a liar. Spin doctors are hard at work tainting the minds of those who would judge them; America.
I am an Okie. I firmly believe in Oklahoma justice. We don't pay any mind to the lies of lawyers anymore than we pay mind to lying politicians. We look at facts and judge accordingly. Fancy words are for are fooling the ignorant.
Rove is a traitor. Bush is harboring a traitor.
In nineteen-fifty Oklahoma, both would have already been hung, justifiably so.
Posted by Purl Gurl on :
McCain, hundreds of other American soldiers were tortured to gain military secrets. None talked. Many died.
Rove gives away our country's secrets simply for the benefit of Bush's political aspirations, in this case, as punishment for showing Bush to be a liar about Iraq.
McCain endures years of torture, never talks.
Rove, such a cowardly traitor. He betrayed our country for political benefit, with no torture.
What does Bush do? He protects Rove. That, in my mental system of justice, makes Bush a traitor.
Posted by glassman on :
Art: Plame was not an undecover agent, as defined by the law prohibiting revealing names of CIA undercover agents.
glassman: who are you to define what Plame's position is? NOBODY.... i patiently await the descision of the qualified people.. part of the problem here is that the President himself is the one who is supposed to make the call in these cases, and he obviously has a conflict of interest...
Art: - Plame (not Cheney as Wilson later lied to congress about) instigated the CIA to send her husband Wilson to Niger, and wanted him to dispel the notion that Saddam was trying to get uranium.
glassman: i suppose you were there at the meetings held by the State Dept and the CIA when the desision was made to send Wilson?... i think you are in lalalaland....you imagine yourself in the halls of power?
here is a more factual account... Tim Phelps and Knut Royce in July, 2003. They reported on July 22 that:
"A senior intelligence officer confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked 'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.
a statement by wilson himself: on July 13 of this year, David Ensor, the CNN correspondent, did call the CIA for a statement of its position and reported that a senior CIA official confirmed my account that Valerie did not propose me for the trip: Posted by Purl Gurl on :
Contrasting this, some would call for Flora Homma to be prosecuted. Not so. We all know she was the meanest, most murderous woman in Eagletown history.
However, if you are stupid enough to come close to Flora, you deserve what you get. We were told to keep distance from Flora. If she trottled one of us, that was his fault, not hers, because he chose to contest her by coming close.
On her murder of a husband. He was known to be a mean abusive drunkard. He needed killin'. None care because justice was served to him.
If a farmer down the route was caught with another's cow, chances are we would call for his hanging.
We know what is right, and what is wrong, despite what laws might indicate, otherwise.
In Oklahoma, Simpson would be executed, Blake would be executed, Jackson in prison for life, and Rove, publically hung with fanfare.
Posted by keithsan on :
Source: Rove said reporters told him of CIA operative's identity
Friday, July 15, 2005; Posted: 6:43 p.m. EDT (22:43 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of a CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.
The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.
Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story.
The conversation eventually turned to Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration's use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said.
Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Niger, according to the source.
Novak's column, citing two Bush administration officials, appeared six days later, touching off a political firestorm and leading to a federal criminal investigation into who leaked Plame's identity. That probe has ensnared presidential aides and reporters in a two-year legal battle.
since i believe both reporters and politicians are liars. hmmmm
Posted by glassman on :
yeah, this is typical of how Rove operates too..
he's good...there have been numerous instances where he has allowed/encouraged journalists to make mistakes and let them run with them long enough to look dumb....
the interesting thing about this case? Cheney's office was the first one accused (way back last year)...now it is Rove, and (in spite of certain uninformed claimants) Plame was classified covert by the CIA....
Judith Miller is in jail refusing to talk.....
we know that NUMEROUS journalists were "leaked" whatever the data was...we still don't know who did it...
so? by the time we get the truth? there will have been so many rumors that everybody will be sick of hearing about it... Rove has used this technique successfully for most of his career..disinformation ...
Rove gave written permission to the journalist who had HIS name on the e-mail to reveal his source.... so Rove did engineer this little bit of the story... can't wait to what's next.. Posted by keithsan on :
LOL- cant argue with that-
everything rove says is an engineered lie, which he's been doing for life.
Just cant argue with that. I get this argument from europeans on the war with Iraq "Bush just wants to kill everybody"
you shrug and walk away.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by keithsan: LOL- cant argue with that-
everything rove says is an engineered lie, which he's been doing for life.
Just cant argue with that. I get this argument from europeans on the war with Iraq "Bush just wants to kill everybody"
you shrug and walk away.
let me ask you this Keith...
which matters more?
the facts, or the perceptions?
you may recall last election where i said i couldn't vote for Bush again (that is AGAIN Art) simply because the rest of the world has no respect for him... and that i was concerned that if we re-elect him we would end up paying a terrible price in world opinion....
the argument against that is "who cares" right?
the thing is? most of the world DOES care, and just under half the US voters DO care...
Posted by keithsan on :
the worlds opinion on clinton was poor, same with bush the first and reagan, before that i was too young.
The europeans I know and meet here, don't like and haven't liked american policies. Including democratic ones. War just brings out the protests. They protested Clinton in Kosovo and actually I had more complaints about that war and still.
I disagree that the world cares, I think they would be more than happy to see the U.S faill and have higher taxes and 16+% unemployement, like their countries. Nobody likes the country on top, you like the nascar driver on top? they hate armstrong.
When i started spending time in Europe clinton was president, he was disliked and the media was laughed at for making a big deal out of banging a 20 year old.
Hasnt changed, now they hate bush and think americans are stupid for voting for him.
Posted by Art on :
Art: Plame was not an undecover agent, as defined by the law prohibiting revealing names of CIA undercover agents.
glassman: who are you to define what Plame's position is? NOBODY....i patiently await the descision of the qualified people..part of the problem here is that the President himself is the one who is supposed to make the call in these cases, and he obviously has a conflict of interest...
Art: Valerie Plame was at a desk job for over the last five years - not working in the field. This excludes her as an undercover agent, as defined in the law prohibiting the release of names of CIA undercover agents.
Art: Plame (not Cheney as Wilson later lied to congress about) instigated the CIA to send her husband Wilson to Niger, and wanted him to dispel the notion that Saddam was trying to get uranium.
glassman: i suppose you were there at the meetings held by the State Dept and the CIA when the desision was made to send Wilson?... i think you are in lalalaland....you imagine yourself in the halls of power?
here is a more factual account... Tim Phelps and Knut Royce in July, 2003. They reported on July 22 that:
"A senior intelligence officer confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked 'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.
a statement by wilson himself: on July 13 of this year, David Ensor, the CNN correspondent, did call the CIA for a statement of its position and reported that a senior CIA official confirmed my account that Valerie did not propose me for the trip: [/QB][/QUOTE]
Art: Your "factual account" is ludicrous. Funny you should quote Wilson whose testimony before congress is a public record of his lies. Now for some reality, that blows your account out of the water:
By Susan Schmidt Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, July 10, 2004; Page A09
Former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, dispatched by the CIA in February 2002 to investigate reports that Iraq sought to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program with uranium from Africa, was specifically recommended for the mission by his wife, a CIA employee, contrary to what he has said publicly.
Wilson last year launched a public firestorm with his accusations that the administration had manipulated intelligence to build a case for war. He has said that his trip to Niger should have laid to rest any notion that Iraq sought uranium there and has said his findings were ignored by the White House.
Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.
The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address.
Yesterday's report said that whether Iraq sought to buy lightly enriched "yellowcake" uranium from Niger is one of the few bits of prewar intelligence that remains an open question.
The report turns a harsh spotlight on what Wilson has said about his role in gathering prewar intelligence, most pointedly by asserting that his wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame, recommended him.
Plame's role could be significant in an ongoing investigation into whether a crime was committed when her name and employment were disclosed to reporters last summer.
The report states that a CIA official told the Senate committee that Plame "offered up" Wilson's name for the Niger trip, then on Feb. 12, 2002, sent a memo to a deputy chief in the CIA's Directorate of Operations saying her husband "has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." The next day, the operations official cabled an overseas officer seeking concurrence with the idea of sending Wilson, the report said.
Wilson has asserted that his wife was not involved in the decision to send him to Niger.
"Valerie had nothing to do with the matter," Wilson wrote in a memoir published this year. "She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip."
Wilson stood by his assertion in an interview yesterday, saying Plame was not the person who made the decision to send him. Of her memo, he said: "I don't see it as a recommendation to send me."
The report said Plame told committee staffers that she relayed the CIA's request to her husband, saying, "there's this crazy report" about a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq. The committee found Wilson had made an earlier trip to Niger in 1999 for the CIA, also at his wife's suggestion.
The report also said Wilson provided misleading information to The Washington Post last June. He said then that he concluded the Niger intelligence was based on documents that had clearly been forged because "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong."
"Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong' when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports," the Senate panel said. Wilson told the panel he may have been confused and may have "misspoken" to reporters. The documents -- purported sales agreements between Niger and Iraq -- were not in U.S. hands until eight months after Wilson made his trip to Niger.
Wilson's reports to the CIA added to the evidence that Iraq may have tried to buy uranium in Niger, although officials at the State Department remained highly skeptical, the report said.
Wilson said that a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, was unaware of any sales contract with Iraq, but said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq -- which Mayaki interpreted to mean they wanted to discuss yellowcake sales. A report CIA officials drafted after debriefing Wilson said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to UN sanctions on Iraq."
According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.
Still, it was the CIA that bore the brunt of the criticism of the Niger intelligence. The panel found that the CIA has not fully investigated possible efforts by Iraq to buy uranium in Niger to this day, citing reports from a foreign service and the U.S. Navy about uranium from Niger destined for Iraq and stored in a warehouse in Benin.
The agency did not examine forged documents that have been widely cited as a reason to dismiss the purported effort by Iraq until months after it obtained them. The panel said it still has "not published an assessment to clarify or correct its position on whether or not Iraq was trying to purchase uranium from Africa." Posted by glassman on :
keithsan: When i started spending time in Europe clinton was president, he was disliked and the media was laughed at for making a big deal out of banging a 20 year old.
galssman: i experienced the same while living at a Kalifornication University in Riverside... i was pretty ticked about monica...the attitude there in general was "what's the big deal"... my response was, it's called sekshal hurasmunt, and lying into the cameras...
i guess lying is now OK???
anyway, i'll continue to bitch and moan about whoever is power..that's the name of the game anyway...
i think we do pay a price when world opinion is against US... i don't think it matters toooo much about opinion until you end up in the UN and not able to garner support for your proprositions... getting rid of the UN would be a waste..
i disagree that Reagan or Bush #1 had world opinion against them... Clinton? more than them but a LOT less than Bush.... Bush has managed to offend them all.... even the Brits are turning against him...
hows the beaches there? see any more nashty old fat people with no suits on this year? Posted by glassman on :
Art, why don't you stop using bold face in your own statements? it makes it appear you are quoting other people...
that article is good, but it does not say WILSON LIED......
you are misinterpreting it....
it clearly sates the PLAME was not in position to send her husband..yes she threw his name out as a suggestion but she is didn't have the authority to send him....
most importantly?
i persoanlly have read the full (de-classified portion) document that Susan Schmidt Washington Post Staff Writer refers to... here's a link for you...
you have latched onto a few minor portions that aren't pertinent to the fact of the case...
State and IAEA both debunked the Niger documents as forgeries very quickly..CIA had internal STRIFE over how to interpret the Niger documents AND the aluminim tubes... what went to the white house from the CIA was contradicted by both STATE and the IAEA, but the CIA apparently ignored a lot of data to come to their conclusions and they don't make it clear why or how they managed to ignore teh data that made the IAEA and State classify the Niger documents as forgeries...tehy just say they neve considered the evidence ...
from the gov. report.. K. Niger Conclusions
U) Conclusion 13. The report on the former ambassador's trip to Niger, disseminated in March 2002, did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal, but State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) analysts believed that the report supported their assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.
as you can see? the statement is NOT that Wilson lied, it is that his trip didn't force anyone to change their original positions.... the CIA now agrees that they made some serious mistakes.... (U) Conclusion 15. The Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) Directorate of Operations should have taken precautions not to discuss the credibility of reporting with a potential source when it arranged a meeting with the former ambassador and Intelligence Community analysts.
(U) Conclusion 16. The language in the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate that "Iraq also began vigorously trying to procure uranium ore and yellowcake" overstated what the Intelligence Community knew about Iraq's possible procurement attempts. Posted by keithsan on :
no naked people yet, haven't hit the islands, if there are any fat naked ones, it will be a surprise, with all the norwegians/italians/greeks/germans, its tough to find a fat young one, i'll keep my eyes pealed for you
Reagan defiantely with the arms race had everyone complaining and scared, don't forget nicaragua. first bush did Iraq not liked either. but you can disagree
U.N. honestly I would like to see us leave. Waste of time and money. Big fat gov't organizations are just a waste of time and money. Nothing good is accomplished, have they ever solved a problem.
Leave for Naxos island at 5 am will be there for 8 days. will be trying to flip the q's looking for a short entry only but need to check puter for house incase it sells, how's new haven working out? culture shock?
Posted by glassman on :
here's what is kind of scary Art..and it still makes me suspicious that the CIA has covered up something for somebody... they flat out state that they sent Wilson to Niger without ever even examining the documents PHYSICALLY... do you really believe this? i don't say anybody is lying here, i just say that credibility is stretched as thin as i possible....
Conclusion 18. When documents regarding the Iraq-Niger uranium reporting became available to the Intelligence Community in October 2002, Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) analysts and operations officers should have made an effort to obtain copies. As a result of not obtaining the documents, CIA Iraq nuclear analysts continued to report on Iraqi efforts to procure uranium from Africa and continued to approve the use of such language in Administration publications and speeches.
if you read the whole report, you will find that the CIA ADMITS they did have the Niger documnets in their possession, but never "bothered" to examine them for authenticity and ignored the report from State that said they were bogus...
that's hard for me to believe...
Conclusion 19. Even after obtaining the forged documents and being alerted by.a State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) analyst about problems with them, analysts at both the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) did not examine them carefully enough to see the obvious problems with the documents. Both agencies continued to publish assessments that Iraq may have been seeking uranium from Africa. In addition, CIA continued to approve the use of similar language in Administration publications and speeches, including the State of the Union. Posted by glassman on :
as you can see Art?
the State of the Union address was rightfully critisized by Wilson....
Posted by keithsan on :
yeah great criticism.......
Posted by keithsan on :
anyways, i get the feeling the hype that has been presented to kill rove for a long time now may be misplaced. If it is found to be misplaced I also have the feeling that the story will die quick.
Posted by glassman on :
Rove? he's the master of the game right now...
of course they will go after him at every chance...
he's a very interesting character...
BTW? i don't think he's in the clear just yet....
Posted by glassman on :
there are a lot of references in the Senate report to unspecified white house speech writers contacting the CIA about wording.... and we all know that could possibly lead them right back to Rove anyway.....
there is a story that Rove went to a dubya biographer and told him dubya had been busted in Texas in the 70's for coke. then dubya's dad got it fixed by using his connections to the Republican Judge that got dubya's case... the fact? there were NO, i repeat, NO GOP judges in Texas way back when pretty slick way to make anybody afraid to cover a similar story, even if it's true ain't it
secondly? whoever outed Plame? might just have used one journalist to "spread the word" thru to other journalists.. and we still don't know who did it...
the original theories were that Cheneys cheif of staff did it... whoever did it was talking directly to the CIA... that's the only way they would have known that Plame offered her husbands name to her superiors for their consideration....
it's kindof interesting that the CIA used a state dept person to gather intel in a case that they obviously had serious disagreements over... makes ya wonder why they didn't keep it in-house...
i go back to my original theory that there is/has been a career war going on in the intel community
Posted by glassman on :
deeper research.....
the "revelation" that Rove was told by journalists? LOL it's illegal too...more things to DD...
The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist ...
this will be fun to watch too.. Posted by glassman on :
more rumor than substance here i think...
karl is till not "in the clear"
Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson's wife from another member of the news media but he could not recall which reporter had told him about it first, the person said. Posted by Art on :
glassman: Art, why don't you stop using bold face in your own statements? it makes it appear you are quoting other people...
Art: No it doesn't. I clearly show my sources and what they say, apart from my own remarks.
glassman: that article is good, but it does not say WILSON LIED......you are misinterpreting it....it clearly sates the PLAME was not in position to send her husband..yes she threw his name out as a suggestion but she is didn't have the authority to send him....
Art: No one ever said that Plame sent Wilson to Niger on her own authority. Everyone, but Wilson, says Plame suggested this to her boss, and that it was acted on. Wilson said Plame had nothing to do with it - lying to protect his wife - but you wouldn't see a liberal lie if it slapped you in the face and often see a conservative truth as a lie. Self deception allows you to do this.
glassman: State and IAEA both debunked the Niger documents as forgeries very quickly..
Art: So? Doesn't mean that Saddam wasn't actually seeking uranium from Niger, as he had previously in the 90s, does it. Wilson'e own reporting acknowledged this. The forgery means only that someone was trying to instigate action against Saddam, not that Saddam was absolutely not trying to get uranium. It is possible that Saddam was trying to get uranium while at the same time someone forged a document saying this. You don't seem to be able to understand this.
glassman: CIA had internal STRIFE over how to interpret the Niger documents AND the aluminim tubes... what went to the white house from the CIA was contradicted by both STATE and the IAEA, but the CIA apparently ignored a lot of data to come to their conclusions and they don't make it clear why or how they managed to ignore the data that made the IAEA and State classify the Niger documents as forgeries...they just say they neve considered the evidence.
Art: So? There are often differences of opinion as you described above, in interptreting intel that is thin, as intel often is. No big deal here.
So the CIA erred on the side of caution. They should, to protect this country. Bush erred on the side of caution in saying Saddam had WMD based on his having them in the past, and his jerking the UN inspectors around, and Saddam's constantly violating UN agreements he had signed. Bush couldn't take a chance with the security of this country. Those who would have taken that chance, like most liberals, would have put Saddam ahead of the USA - protecting Saddam at a risk to us.
Posted by BuyTex on :
quote:glassman: Art, why don't you stop using bold face in your own statements? it makes it appear you are quoting other people...
Art: No it doesn't. I clearly show my sources and what they say, apart from my own remarks.
Art, Glass is right. You get confused over responses in argument as opposed to somebody trying to tell you something...lol, glass is in effect saying, "Hey, man, you got spinach in yer teeth."
Then you respond, "Uhhh, no i don't."
Really, the continuous, continual, continued BOLD is goofy. Typefaces have "meaning," a syntax almost...
Posted by glassman on :
Art: So? Doesn't mean that Saddam wasn't actually seeking uranium from Niger, as he had previously in the 90s, does it. Wilson'e own reporting acknowledged this. The forgery means only that someone was trying to instigate action against Saddam, not that Saddam was absolutely not trying to get uranium. It is possible that Saddam was trying to get uranium while at the same time someone forged a document saying this. You don't seem to be able to understand this.
glassman: sadam didn't get any uranium in the nineties..it was all before the Gulf War(which i suported) you don't bother to read these reports? you rely on your Catherine Schmidts and Judith Millers and Limbuggers to make your opinions for you? Art, i almost feel sorry for ya man... the conclusions of the WHOLE US INTEL group is that sadam didn't get uranium from niger after the Gulf War....and that ALL of the WMD evidence the admin relied on to instigate the war was BAD...
and you say liberals don't get it.... you don't get it... nobody in America is ready to lie down and let the terrorists take over or whatever it is they want to do...
BUT?
we need to have the cooperation of the whole damn world to beat these ba$tards and guess what? they don't trust US as much as they should now...that's why i was saying that we need world opinion to be more in our favor... i'm no brown-noser, i'm a pragmatist....we can't defeat the terrorists if we don't have cooperation in the international arena...and we've lost a lot of the support we need (and coulda had) for that cooperation...
Posted by Art on :
Art: So? Doesn't mean that Saddam wasn't actually seeking uranium from Niger, as he had previously in the 90s, does it. Wilson'e own reporting acknowledged this. The forgery means only that someone was trying to instigate action against Saddam, not that Saddam was absolutely not trying to get uranium. It is possible that Saddam was trying to get uranium while at the same time someone forged a document saying this. You don't seem to be able to understand this.
glassman: Saddam didn't get any uranium in the nineties..Art, i almost feel sorry for ya man... the conclusions of the WHOLE US INTEL group is that sadam didn't get uranium from niger after the Gulf War....and you say liberals don't get it.... you don't get it...
Art: Nobody said Saddam got uranium in the 90s - only that he was trying to.
glassman: we need to have the cooperation of the whole damn world to beat these ba$tards and guess what? they don't trust US as much as they should now...
Art: Nonsense. We are getting the same cooperation we would have gotten. Where is this not true? We have only not goten support eith the war in Iraq but that is changing fast as even France and Germany are helping in Iraq.
Posted by Art on :
BuyTex: Really, the continuous, continual, continued BOLD is goofy. Typefaces have "meaning," a syntax almost...
Art: Yes, I use bold on a dark section like this, and also in reply to a quote in bold - easier to read that way.
So, sorry it offends your sensibilities. Posted by BuyTex on :
lol
Posted by glassman on :
art, as long as you keep repeating the lies? i will keep pushing the truth back in front of your lies...
Wilson's report has been twisted so far out of proportion that you don't seem to have any clue what it said...
simple facts here...
Wilson said that his report SHOULD have settled any questions that Cheney's office had... Cheney himself did admit that he did communicate with the CIA that he wanted more data in the Niger situation...no, Cheney himself didn't order Wilson tt go, but Wilson never said Cheney himself ordered it, just that the CIA was acting in response to Cheney's questions...
it really is amazing how many ways these guys can twist the truth...
the stories that Wilson is a liar are blown way out of proportion because the WMD declarations are what got the support of the country in invading Iraq... and without them? nada... it wouldn't have happened...
i patiently await the rest of the story....
BTW? Rove's stories are unraveling fast on the Sunday morning news shows.....
Posted by glassman on :
Art: Nobody said Saddam got uranium in the 90s - only that he was trying to.
glassman: the evidence suggests otherwise art, and wilson did not confirm that at all....
White House Backs Off Claim on Iraqi Buy By Walter Pincus Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, July 8, 2003; Page A01
The Bush administration acknowledged for the first time yesterday that President Bush should not have alleged in his State of the Union address in January that Iraq had sought to buy uranium in Africa to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program.
what's even more disturbing is the way that the admin went about trying to justify their claims to begin with... there was much discussion about which reports to go with, and it is crystal clear that they knew they COULD NOT use the CIA's stuff without breaching the classified data rules... so when they started to slam Wilson? they had to know that they were treading on thin ice as far as the "neither confirm nor deny" rules... it is still a question of who did IT, not whether it was done...
Rove is not off the hook yet....
Posted by glassman on :
glassman: we need to have the cooperation of the whole damn world to beat these ba$tards and guess what? they don't trust US as much as they should now...
Art: Nonsense. We are getting the same cooperation we would have gotten. Where is this not true? We have only not goten support eith the war in Iraq but that is changing fast as even France and Germany are helping in Iraq.
glassman:
that's a pretty stupid thing to say, remember this??????
after prolonged negotiations between the United States, Britain, France, Russia and other U.N. Security Council members, the United Nations declared that Iraq would have to accept even more intrusive inspections than under the previous inspection regime - to be carried out by the U.N. Monitoring, Verification, and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) - or face "serious consequences." Iraq agreed to accept the U.N. decision and inspections resumed in late November 2002. On December 7, 2002, Iraq submitted its 12,000 page declaration, which claimed that it had no current WMD programs. Intelligence analysts from the United States and other nations immediately began to scrutinize the document, and senior U.S. officials quickly rejected the claims. (Note 2)
Over the next several months, inspections continued in Iraq, and the chief inspectors, Hans Blix (UNMOVIC) and Mohammed El Baradei (IAEA) provided periodic updates to the U.N. Security Council concerning the extent of Iraqi cooperation, what they had or had not discovered, and what they believed remained to be done. During that period the Bush administration, as well as the Tony Blair administration in the United Kingdom, charged that Iraq was not living up to the requirement that it fully disclose its WMD activities, and declared that if it continued along that path, "serious consequences" - that is, invasion - should follow.
The trigger for military action preferred by the British government, other allies, and at least some segments of the Bush administration, was a second U.N. resolution that would authorize an armed response. Other key U.N. Security Council members - including France, Germany, and Russia - argued that the inspections were working and that the inspectors should be allowed to continue. When it became apparent that the Council would not approve a second resolution, the United States and Britain terminated their attempts to obtain it. Instead, they, along with other allies, launched Operation Iraqi Freedom on March 19, 2003 - a military campaign that quickly brought about the end of Saddam Hussein's regime and ultimately resulted in his capture.
i know this is the "intellectual" version of history....
but it is correct in every detail....
Posted by Dardadog on :
I'm currently reading "The Lies of George W. Bush" by David Corn. Great read. Goes into great detail of the many (and I mean many) fabrications and falsehoods this cowardly ass has spewed over the last thirty five years. Gives good depth on when he was AWOL from the National Guard for a year and a half. "Hail To The Cowardly Dictator".
Dar
Posted by glassman on :
seems Rove DID tell Cooper aboutt Plame , and not the opposite... and Cooper did say that Rove admitted to "telling him too much"
i'd say that's a smoking gun...
Posted by Kate on :
I think a lot of the "disrespect" that other countries have for our President, isn't because of disrespect at all! They know that he means what he says, and that he will do it, and they don't like it! They hate him, because he is trying to stop their illegal and immoral lifestyles! Same here is our own country! People that want to live immoral lives, don't like a moral president! They want one, that will live in the same kind of sins that they live in, so that they don't feel guilty about what they are doing with their own lives! People that lie, usually call other people liers, whether they are or not, because they don't have the capacity to "trust" anyone else with telling the truth! You can't sit in judgement of people, that you have never even met, and don't even know, just because you don't like them! That is God's job! You see, the difference between some of you, and me, is that I give people a chance! I accept them for who they are, and go by the actual facts, not inuendos, and false accusations! If the person has been proven beyond a doubt, to be guilty, then I act accordingly! Until then, I pray for them, and give them my support! How unhappy some of you guys must be, to hate someone, right from the start just because he is a republican, and a Christian, and your guy didn't make it into office! Geech, that's sad! And yes, I'm cranky! Even I get fed up with crap from time to time!
Posted by glassman on :
Kate?
i've told you all along that my politics is not about party...
if you look back to last election? you will find that i clearly warned about THIS PLAME case in specific and that the WMD issue would come back to haunt US.
i like quite a few things Bush has done, but the WMD issue will go down in history as one of the biggest political scandals ever....
we have only scratched the surface of this...
as i recall? you said nah nah on the day after the election? and i told you then that i did my DD, and i wasn't just putting out lies (liberal or mikey moore or whatever brand you call them) and that i did my best to analyse the data critically and give you fair warning...
there is a slight chance that Bush and Rove will negotiate their way out of this... watch who Bush nominates for the Supreme Court...
i BET that the nominee will have Christian Conservatives HOWLING......
i could be wrong about that, but i don't see Bush as truly supporting the evangelicals...he just wanted their vote...
Posted by Dardadog on :
Kate, when Bush was Governor of Texas he was pro-abortion. He also passed a bill that allowed Texas to pull the plug on people who could not afford to pay their hospital bills. "The State of Texas" was given the right to pull the plug. He also signed bills that were pro-abortion. This is not "my opinion"! This is fact!!!!!
Dar
Posted by Dardadog on :
It is also documented and proven that he did not show up to serve one single day of duty when he got his "transfer" out of the Texas National Guard to avoid being called up to active duty during Nam. A year and a half he was missing. I was active military so don't stand on the soap box with me. The assh0le was a raving coward!!!!!
Posted by glassman on :
they don't care Dar...
it's all "liberal lies" to them....
they will roll back the clock on women's reproductive rights and then scream bloody murder when the poorest of the poor apply for more welfare.. while the wealthy women will still get their little problems "taken care of" like they always have....
Posted by bdgee on :
Anyone who "thinks" they know Bush is an upstanding anything isn't thinking. Look at the record! I mean the facts, not the crap he and the party claim to be. He lies, then lies the opposite to cover for the first. He will foster any cause for which sufficient monies go into the pockets of the "Family". The record proves irt to be so.
Posted by glassman on :
i'm not a Prairie Home Companion fan, but i have to say this IS funny....
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dardadog: [QB] It is also documented and proven that he did not show up to serve one single day of duty when he got his "transfer" out of the Texas National Guard to avoid being called up to active duty during Nam. A year and a half he was missing. I was active military so don't stand on the soap box with me. The assh0le was a raving coward!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------
Dardadog the pink pumper!
I dont think I'll believe your documented proven anything...
Got MLON?
Posted by glassman on :
hmmmmm.... dustoff you shouldn't argue that one....
it is documented...(at least the part about shortening his duty tour)
nobody cares.... they proved it by ignoring it and voting for him anyway... the only real question is why/how he manged to get away with it...
he's not a "normal" guy, so "normal" rules don't apply to him, and besides? he's been saved and his sins are washed away.... clean as a newborn babe....
[ July 20, 2005, 17:45: Message edited by: glassman ]
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by glassman: [QB] hmmmmm.... dustoff you shouldn't argue that one....
it is documented...
nobody cares.... they proved it by ignoring it and voting for him anyway... the only real question is why/how he manged to get away with it...
he's not a "normal" guy, so "normal" rules don't apply to him, and besides? he's been saved and his sins are washed away.... clean as a newborn babe....
-------------------------------------------------
glassman, dardadog states bush is a raving a$$hole coward,,,bullchit!, guess he is blind..
Dardadog, do you call the scene at ground zero [ 9/11 ] and the pitch in yankee stadium the actions of a coward?
If you do, your all twisted up in birdie land..
glassman, you say I shouldn't argue that one..
I can hold my own with you two.
Posted by glassman on :
O, i know you can dusty, but throwing baseballs and standing at ground zero don't count for much to me.... what President wouldn't have stood at ground zero????? Carter or Clinton woulda been there too, and so would you or I....
i think dubya probly woulda gone to fly combat if they woulda let him.... but "they" didn't let him....
i don't think he's a coward... but he did get his tour length "fixed " somehow...
i do think his crew has made some serious value judgement errors, and that's what i've always said...
i am amazed how much "forgivenss" he has recieved from the American people...
especially the ones that claim to be so "hardline".....
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
glassman, many people were spoiled by the Karizzzzzma of Clinton, he has such a command of the English language. We just expect our Presidents to speak that well now...
Bush has a speach impediment, that is really annoying, and yes his manerizms can be a little odd..
He didn't spend a lot a time with the hollywood types, thus, he is not so self-absorbed..
BUT, he has a steel beam for a back bone.
Second term Presidents generaly bring on they're core agendas..
So, it's no surprise that he will appoint conservative judges..
20yrs from now, Bush will probably be spoken of as one of our great Presidents.
Posted by glassman on :
conservative judge?
i'm glad that everybody thinks so....
i think this guy will do what is correct....( i like him) cuz he's smart.... and he is NOT controversial...
the women's rights groups should look carefully at how old he and his wife are, and how young his children are.....
remeber who appointed O'connor? yup Reagan did...
as far as history goes?
i think Bush will be MOST noted for the WMD thing...(it ain't going away) and for establishing a religious government in Iraq.. i've always said that will happen, and i think it will take about 3 years after we withdraw...IF we ever do....( we can't, IMO) people keep saying Iran isn't a democracy, but it is a FORM of democracy, and that's what we'll see in Iraq eventually... too....
in Iran? they have ONE party that chooses all the candidates... here? we have TWO...big friggin deal....
Posted by BuyTex on :
I don't know much about the new pick, but I like he clerked under under Rehnquist. None of us like politicos on the campaign trail who flip-flop in rhythm to the polls, but to be able to change your position with new information and a more seasoned respect for the big picture is important, especially in the judiciary...jmo
Bush: sorry Dusty, the only backbone he's shown me is he's willing to sign on the dotted line when his pop's cronies tell him, "Hey, this is a good deal, Jr."
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
He is young enough to become a great supreme court justice.. The man is very comfortable in his own skin..
I think Bush picked him becouse of this....
His credentials speak to his abilitys..
But I'll bet Bush picked the man, not the hype..
Posted by BuyTex on :
could be set to follow in Rehnquist's footsteps--hey, we could do a lot worse.
Posted by glassman on :
yes, he's 50 and he's been in DC for a long time and managed not to make any serious enemies...
i like that IN A JUDGE...that would be wierd for anybody else..
my point about his age and his wife's age is that they waited a long time to have children... that is a good sign for women's rights...
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
Ya, a boy 4 and a girl 5..... That otta keep him connected to the real world...
He dosen't show intellectual arrogance. I like that in a judge.
Posted by BuyTex on :
i heard that, lol...
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuyTex: i heard that, lol...
-------------------------------------------------
Tex, i didn't herd a ting, nope not a thang.. What was that!!!!!! I herded it !
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...
Posted by Dustoff101 on :
Hey Tex, I told ya I was losing it.. You'll catch up, a few more years and I will make sense to ya....Make sure your well grounded when it happens!
------------------------------------------------- My fishing trip, been delayed to long.
Posted by glassman on :
iyit awlreyaday maykes seyense ta mey ayand ah just turned 45 this month Posted by glassman on :
this should raise some eyebrows....
Iran and Iraq look to heal old wounds with oil deal
By Christian Oliver REUTERS
12:17 p.m. July 19, 2005
TEHRAN – Old foes Iran and Iraq on Tuesday signed an oil deal they hope will pave the way to further diplomatic rapprochement between them.
The signing was the keystone of a visit to Iran by an Iraqi ministerial delegation led by Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the first Iraqi leader to visit Tehran in decades.
Advertisement Iran and Iraq bludgeoned each other to a standstill in a war between 1980 and 1988 characterized by trench warfare and gas attacks. Hundreds of thousands of people were killed.
Starting to rebuild bridges, Iraq signed a preliminary agreement to export 150,000 barrels per day (bpd) of crude from the southern city of Basra to Abadan refinery in southwest Iran, a spokeswoman for Iran's oil ministry said.
In return, fuel-starved Iraq will import gasoline, gas oil and kerosene across its eastern border.
Iraqi Oil Minister Ibrahim Bahr al-Uloum has said the project could be running within a year as pipeline construction should take only three to six months.
The United States has reservations about growing ties between the two neighbors, but the language from Iranian and Iraqi officials alike has been warm throughout the visit.
US Buys Up Iraqi Oil to Stave Off Crisis By Faisal Islam and Nick Paton Walsh Observer January 26, 2003 (a month and a half before we invaded)
Facing its most chronic shortage in oil stocks for 27 years, the US has this month turned to an unlikely source of help - Iraq. Weeks before a prospective invasion of Iraq, the oil-rich state has doubled its exports of oil to America, helping US refineries cope with a debilitating strike in Venezuela. After the loss of 1.5 million barrels per day of Venezuelan production in December the oil price rocketed, and the scarcity of reserves threatened to do permanent damage to the US oil refinery and transport infrastructure. To keep the pipelines flowing, President Bush stopped adding to the 700m barrel strategic reserve.
But ultimately oil giants such as Chevron, Exxon, BP and Shell saved the day by doubling imports from Iraq from 0.5m barrels in November to over 1m barrels per day to solve the problem. Essentially, US importers diverted 0.5m barrels of Iraqi oil per day heading for Europe and Asia to save the American oil infrastructure.
The trade, though bizarre given current Pentagon plans to launch around 300 cruise missiles a day on Iraq, is legal under the terms of UN's oil for food programme. But for opponents of war, it shows the unspoken aim of military action in Iraq, which has the world's second largest proven reserves - some 112 billion barrels, and at least another 100bn of unproven reserves, according to the US Department of Energy. Iraqi oil is comparatively simple to extract - less than $1 per barrel, compared with $6 a barrel in Russia. Soon, US and British forces could be securing the source of that oil as a priority in the war strategy. The Iraqi fields south of Basra produce prized 'sweet crudes' that are simpler to refine. On Friday, Pentagon sources said US military planners 'have crafted strategies that will allow us to secure and protect those fields as rapidly as possible in order to then preserve those prior to destruction'.
there is also considerable evidence that Turkey and Jordan (our allies) had tacit aproval to "smuggle" oil under/from both the Clinton and Bush administrations.....
Posted by BuyTex on :
oil--the name of the game...
for fun?
imagine a planet such as ours with silica for fuel...
extrapolate the dynamic...
nothing like we see/have seen...
Posted by glassman on :
as a glass fanatic? i have to say it's dang hard to oxidise silica what would we use as/to replace oxygen
i've come to the simple conclusion that terrorism is profitable if you are sitting on oil....
we are in a world o'doo doo, and there is no short EZ answer...
Posted by BuyTex on :
too literal--sorry
how about hydrogen?
only meant to invoke "what-if" possibilities
[achhh, forgot the silica-glassman connex, lol]
surely, fuel cells offer at least a reprieve...
Posted by glassman on :
yes, fuel cells do offer US a great possibility...
if we can get fuel cells to run on CH4 (methane) we can replace a lot of our oil dependance..
ehtanol fuel cells are here, and we expect to see them used for laptops soon, you refill them like a zippo ...i think Toshiba got the patent on them...
methane solidifies at 33 degrees under pressure... the floor of the ocean is literally covered with methane ice crystals..it it estimated that there is at least 80 times the amount of methane just lying there than all of the world's oil reserves...
in my "liberal la la fantasy mode" i see a govt "manhattan project" to bring this conversion to fuel celss about quickly, but i don't see anybody (liberal, conservative, GOP, or DEM) ready to roll up their sleeves and "make it so #1"
The current generation of DFCs are carbonate fuel cells; Fuel Cell Energy is exploring the use of solid oxide technology for smaller size units in the future. This is not the same type of fuel cell as the PEM used in an automobile, which is smaller, runs at lower temperatures, produces less power and requires an external supply of hydrogen.
The direct fuel cell takes in methane as a fuel, and reforms the gas internally to produce the hydrogen required for use in the fuel cell reaction. During normal operation, the fuel cell itself only consumers some 70%–80% of the hydrogen feed, leaving 20%–30% available for export.
basically? pure hydrogen is a pain in the butt to store and handle, but using simple carbon-hydrogen molecules (CH4 toluene benzene?) are a lot easier based on todays technology..refrigerating hydrogen to liquid is 'spensive liquifying methane is relatively cheap...
Posted by BuyTex on :
yup, that's what I'm talking about...thanks
so wut's the prob? if fuel cells run on hydrogen or natural gas, doesn't seem like a great leap to methane...?? of course, I'm no chemist...but much closer than the hypothetical silica...yes?
Posted by glassman on :
my understanding is that alot of the problem is that efficiency decreases rapidly cause the carbon gums up the membranes where the oxidation takes place...
Posted by BuyTex on :
true, it *is* carbon-rich...
maybe we need Amory Lovins to figure a profit model for extracting that carbon...
what can you make from C?
(j/k on that one)...
how 'bout industrial mini-diamonds?
Posted by Dardadog on :
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Dardadog: [QB] It is also documented and proven that he did not show up to serve one single day of duty when he got his "transfer" out of the Texas National Guard to avoid being called up to active duty during Nam. A year and a half he was missing. I was active military so don't stand on the soap box with me. The assh0le was a raving coward!!!!!
-----------------------------------------------
Dardadog the pink pumper!
I dont think I'll believe your documented proven anything...
Got MLON?
Sorry MLON was the only stockplay I've ever yelled that you ever took the time to play. You've missed a lot. I have been playin' at 76% for the past eighteen months. 'Course then on MLON, I don't recall pinnin' your arms to your chair so's you couldn't reach your sell button. Maybe you should take up "bonds". They don't react so quickly as the OTC.
Ruff!!!
Posted by Dardadog on :
quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: [QUOTE]Originally posted by glassman: [QB] hmmmmm.... dustoff you shouldn't argue that one....
it is documented...
nobody cares.... they proved it by ignoring it and voting for him anyway... the only real question is why/how he manged to get away with it...
he's not a "normal" guy, so "normal" rules don't apply to him, and besides? he's been saved and his sins are washed away.... clean as a newborn babe....
-------------------------------------------------
glassman, dardadog states bush is a raving a$$hole coward,,,bullchit!, guess he is blind..
Dardadog, do you call the scene at ground zero [ 9/11 ] and the pitch in yankee stadium the actions of a coward?
If you do, your all twisted up in birdie land..
glassman, you say I shouldn't argue that one..
I can hold my own with you two.
Sorry Pal. But I don't recall verbally nailin' you just because I solidly feel your opinion is full of sh!t.......an' as far as holdin' yer own wid me........you couldn't hold my cordless mouse.
Ruff!!!!!!!
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Roberts lives in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and is the first Supreme Court nominee since Stephen Breyer in 1994. He is a practicing Catholic. He has three sisters—Kathy, Peggy, and Barbara—and is the second oldest of his siblings. He and his wife, Jane Marie Sullivan Roberts, who was previously the vice-president of Feminists for Life, have two adopted children, Josephine ("Josie," age 5) and Jack (age 4).
[edit] Views
Posted by bdgee on :
As I once served time as a chemist, I point out to you that the consideration, "if fuel cells run on hydrogen or natural gas, doesn't seem like a great leap to methane...?" is moot. Natural gas is almost pure methane. I also note that there are technologies that avoid the "liquification" problem of hydrogen by storing it in gels. For example, check our the stock MCEL.
Posted by BuyTex on :
I propose: The New Fuel Cell Corporation
we got the talent right here to make it work, and if things go sour, we just GLUV the market!
j/k...lol
seriously, wow, fuel cells...
Posted by glassman on :
don't confuse propane with natural gas either... not the same... propane has a lot more "kick" Posted by BuyTex on :
see, Chief Science Officer Glassman,
New Fuel-Cell Technology Corp, home base? Earth...
for the luv of God, Scotty, you have to accept!
(all respect to James Doohan [sp?] )
Posted by bdgee on :
I haven't run any of the equations in years, but considering that avoiding the carbon compounds that gum up works and float off into the athmosphere to become green house gasses are an obvious culprit, completely avoiding any production or use of any carbon containing compound in the process would be a desirable approach to gaining an advantage in energy production. Pure hydrogen fuel cells will serve as one step. Producing the hydrogen and storing it are not necessarilly processes that require ANY need for the use of fossil fuel. I propose that it is possible to use electricity directly from windmills and solar cells passing through water to break it down into its two constituants, hydrogen and oxygen. Then, to avoid the need to use some outside source of energy to compress these gasses, the process should be carried out in containers so that the gasses become "compressed" due to the addition of molecules from the anode and cathode (or that discharge the hydrogen and oxygen into some form of gell, ready for use in the hydrogen fuel cell).
Posted by BuyTex on :
for real, fuel cells gotta be the way to go. I read a coupla years ago about a police station somewhere in the US that converted to an on-site fuel-cell power plant so they'd never be down, regardless of the grid. Seems like the technology would be more widespread by now.
bdgee, love the hydrogen angle, but wouldn't splitting water eventually "use up" the water? OK, seawater...but still, water is finite...
Posted by glassman on :
for pure hydrogen already compressed? it occurred to me in the 80's that the obvious place to put the electrodes would be in the Marianas trench....
CH4 is less of a pollutant than you are suggesting... in fact? it is a more significant pollutant as CH4 than if it is oxidised.....
there is a STRONG theory that underwater landslides off the coast of Norway triggered the release of enough of the gas to cause global warming and end the last ice age....
Posted by BuyTex on :
O my, was i off base:
"Here's how they work: Pure hydrogen gas – or hydrogen extracted from a fuel like gasoline – is fed into a cell where a catalyst or membrane separates it into electrons and protons. The electrons are diverted through a wire, producing electric current that can be used to power electric motors in the vehicle. The protons are passed along to the end of the process where they are recombined with the electrons and oxygen to produce the fuel cell's exhaust: water.
(Another byproduct is heat, which in some applications, can be captured and also used for energy purposes.)"
In January, for example, during his State of the Union address, President Bush proposed spending $1.2 billion on a plan to launch the first elements of a "hydrogen economy": "With a new national commitment," Bush said, "the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen, and be pollution-free."
think of what 20 or 30 billion$ would have done.....( this is one of the reasons i am so furious about Iraq. not because i'm anti-war or a peace-nik, but because it was a bad cost-benefit solution, we spent 10 time that and we probly won't get a significant return on our investment)
fuel cells have been proven reliable on the space shuttle for 113 missions, that amounts to over 90,000 hours, and require no backup system.... this page is very informative: http://www.utcfuelcells.com/space/spaceshuttle.shtm Posted by BuyTex on :
and good news re automobile progress, fuel-cell powered 2003 Nissan "25,000 trouble-free kilometers":
this page give some idea of how the mebrane is constructed.... it's complicated...
an interesting note: there is some resemblance here to biological cells in the sense that bio-cells have complicated membranes for the exchange of materials into and out of them.....
Posted by BuyTex on :
and they produce liquid "waste" and heat...
Posted by bdgee on :
Now I'll give you another "ingredint" in my world of "safe" energy production. If I were a man of unlimited wealth, I would start a program to develop roofing made of solar cells. There is already technology that can inexpensively construct solar panels in thin sheets that can be rolled up like a rug. Moreover, those solar panels are durable enough to withstand the elements for years, just like the artificial shingles we now shed water with on roofs. The cosrt of instillation shouldn't be much different than with shingles that only shed water. Then the resulting electricity can be fed into a unit that separates water into its elements, thereby avoiding all the horror stories the power companies foster about the need for batteries and their expense. That hydrogen can feed a fuel cell that powers the home. I've been constructing these notions for years.
Posted by timberman on :
Thanks for the links, timberman.
Posted by BuyTex on :
Man, this company's got it going on...I would like to work for them. Their stocks swings, too Posted by bdgee on :
Yep, I do like that chart. But I don't keep enough funds in my account to play with stocks that expensive. Wish I'd known about them back in March of 04. If you'd bought then, it's sorta gone up up up since.
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