posted
SF, i am very open-minded about religion. i won't bash anybody for thier Faith, but i tried to understand Mormonism when Romney ran last time. I went directly to a Mormon.com page that i can't find anymore. I made sure it was the real deal and began reading and i got lost real quick because it seemd more like sci-Fi than even the Bible or the Q'oran which are both interesting if try to read them literally as sci-fi and replace the names with Captain Kirk or Commander Spock with angels as crew meber and 'devils' and Djin as Kling-ons
I'm a real deist, i don't think you can break God's rules, period. If you can do it? God didn't prohibit it. That doesn't make me think it's ok to sin either
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posted
The two main pages of the Church are Mormon.org and LDS.org, if I remember at the moment. I've never heard it compared to Star Trek before...lol. Could you give me an example?
As for Deism, I'll have to admit a little ignorance. I've always understood it to be an 'intellectual man's' agnosticism. Basically a belief that we can never truly know God and that He(She, It, etc...) doesn't talk to His (Her, It's, etc...) creations.
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: The two main pages of the Church are Mormon.org and LDS.org, if I remember at the moment. I've never heard it compared to Star Trek before...lol. Could you give me an example?
As for Deism, I'll have to admit a little ignorance. I've always understood it to be an 'intellectual man's' agnosticism. Basically a belief that we can never truly know God and that He(She, It, etc...) doesn't talk to His (Her, It's, etc...) creations.
Deism? not ever truly know God? You are always surrounded by God in Deism. noone is closer than you are.
There are differnt versions of deism where people argue that we live in the mind/body of God and there are versions of deism where God created teh universe and "walked away" too...
in general deists reject the notion that God "plays favorites" or intervenes at all. You cannot break the Laws God made period. The more you understand them the more you can make the world "respond(?) to your needs and wants. One fundamental rule is the conservation of energy. That can be psychic/spiritual or kinetic/potential. It's all been created and just flows... understand the flow
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: The two main pages of the Church are Mormon.org and LDS.org, if I remember at the moment. I've never heard it compared to Star Trek before...lol. Could you give me an example?
As for Deism, I'll have to admit a little ignorance. I've always understood it to be an 'intellectual man's' agnosticism. Basically a belief that we can never truly know God and that He(She, It, etc...) doesn't talk to His (Her, It's, etc...) creations.
teh star trek thing is a joke. i was poking fun at everybody. i have never read the Bible or the Q'oran front to back, i tried, but both have some really boring parts. I have read reread most of the parts that interest me in both. I pay particular attention to teh "red words"
What i was getting at is that they do read like sci-fi written by naive people. for instance, Jr and i were talking about the power of God last night and he told me God isn't omnipotent in the Bible, he related Judges 1:19 to me, and i had to go read it, we have not yet followed up on the discussion:
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
i will have to 'splain to him that loss of Faith is what made them lose in ht evalley, not he iron itself, they didn't beleive God could overcome the iron......
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quote:That doesn't make me think it's ok to sin either
To the Deist, then, what does it mean to 'sin'?
same things as other for the most part... i've never been bothered by the idear of bigamy ofr instance. but is it listed as a sin? nope...
you've got your ten, we all know them, I am the Lord your G-d who has taken you out of the land of Egypt.
You shall have no other gods but me. You shall not take the name of the Lord your G-d in vain. You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy. Honor your mother and father. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.
So as a deist i am going to pick th eones in hter that make sense as good laws to make society work, don't lie cheat steal... Don't cheat on your wife w/o permission,
the sabbath is everyday, and you are always in Church so we can ignore that...
listen to Mom and dad till you are 18 take care of 'em when they are 68 (or need it)
Taking th eLord's anme in vain means don't ask God to curse otehrs or for favors, and deists don't think God is paying attention if you do anyway...
as to 1st? it says God is jealous, and deists once again don't think God cares so, it's made up by men who are itno it to control you thru your church...
but when you start trying to define sin as eating pork? it don't really work... that was "proscribed behaviour" not sin... same book said don't lay with people of your same sex, or maybe even men with men which leaves women free to do it.. not sin
King James Bible? sin is the transgression of the law.... so when you go there, i sin when i break the speed limit and i do that every day but then we are all sinners after all right?
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posted
OK, SF, i looked at both sites and neither were waht was up 4 years ago...
i was looking at the LDS copy of the Book of Mormon 4 years ago or so, and this is the stuff i was reading:
Chapter 8 Lehi sees a vision of the tree of life—He partakes of its fruit and desires his family to do likewise—He sees a rod of iron, a strait and narrow path, and the mists of darkness that enshroud men—Sariah, Nephi, and Sam partake of the fruit, but Laman and Lemuel refuse. About 600–592 B.C. Chapter 9 Nephi makes two sets of records—Each is called the plates of Nephi—The larger plates contain a secular history; the smaller ones deal primarily with sacred things. About 600–592 B.C. Chapter 10 Lehi predicts that the Jews will be taken captive by the Babylonians—He tells of the coming among the Jews of a Messiah, a Savior, a Redeemer—Lehi tells also of the coming of the one who should baptize the Lamb of God—Lehi tells of the death and resurrection of the Messiah—He compares the scattering and gathering of Israel to an olive tree—Nephi speaks of the Son of God, of the gift of the Ho y Ghost, and of the need for righteousness. About 600–592 B.C. Chapter 11 Nephi sees the Spirit of the Lord and is shown in vision the tree of life—He sees the mother of the Son of God and learns of the condescension of God—He sees the baptism, ministry, and crucifixion of the Lamb of God—He sees also the call and ministry of the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb. About 600–592 B.C.
also i wasreading how Joseph Smith acquired this knowledge....
Section 2 An extract from the words of the angel Moroni to Joseph Smith the Prophet, while in the house of the Prophet’s father at Manchester, New York, on the evening of 21 September 1823 (see History of the Church, 1:12). Moroni was the last of a long line of historians who had made the record that is now before the world as the Book of Mormon. (Compare Malachi 4:5–6; also sections 27:9; 110:13–16; and 128:18.)
this is the "real deal" right? the the plates of Nephi? and how he reads them is difficult for me...
i will repeat, i have Faith and i respect others Faith, it is stronger in some than others and works better for some than others, but not necessarily because it is stronger.
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posted
heres' some fascinating stuff from The Testamnet of Solomon:
(translated from the codex of the Paris Library, after the edition of Fleck, Wissensch. Reise, bd. ii. abth. 3)
11. I Solomon, having heard the name of the archangel, prayed and glorified God, the Lord of heaven and earth. And I sealed the [18] demon and set him to work at stone-cutting, so that he might cut the stones in the Temple, which, lying along the shore, had been brought by the Sea of Arabia. But he, fearful of the iron, continued and said to me: "I pray thee, King Solomon, let me go free; and I will bring you all the demons." And as he was not willing to be subject to me, I prayed the archangel Uriel to come and succour me; and I forthwith beheld the archangel Uriel coming down to me from the heavens. 12. And the angel bade the whales10 of the sea come out of the abyss. And he cast his destiny upon the ground, and that [destiny] made subject [to him] the great demon11. And he commanded the great demon and bold Ornias, to cut stones at the Temple12. And accordingly I Solomon glorified the God of heaven and Maker of the earth. And he bade Ornias come with his destiny, and gave him the seal, saying: "Away with thee, and bring me hither the prince of all the demons."
I mean this without sarcasm, Glass, but if I understand you, as a Deist, you can choose which tennets of various religious groups that you believe to be good for the society (according to your cultural views) and that reflects God's will for you?
And yes, the Apocryphal books have alot of 'interesting' stories in them.
posted
no, God doesn't have a particualr will for me...
God may be "pleased" when i "do good" but the rewards are not in this system...
God knows when the sparrow falls, but God doesn't reach in and fix it... simple observations tells us this by time we are 5
i do beleive God already "fixed" it so that the energy of the sparrow lives forever but can assume differnt kinetic and potential energies. i.e. the sparrow reincarnates in any of the many life forms
The first law of thermodynamics is a version of the law of conservation of energy, specialized for thermodynamical systems. It is usually formulated by stating that the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work performed by the system on its surroundings. The law of conservation of energy can be stated: The energy of an isolated system is constant.
sorry Pagan but wiki is easier to grab abd cut and paste...
in other words, God doesn't "reach in", when God does? I may change my beleif systems.. till then i am a deist
Roman and Greek Mythologies were actually Religions before we started calling them mythology...
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posted
Democrat Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid issssss.....MORMON! I dont hear the left talking about that EVER.
Reid (who was raised agnostic) and his wife (who was born to Jewish immigrant parents and grew up in Henderson), converted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon or LDS Church) while he was a college student
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posted
But, Glass, that is the very point of my question. How do you know what constitutes 'doing good'? Upon what basis is an action considered 'good' or 'better' than some other act? And how do you know what, if any, reward is tied to those actions and when you will receive them if it is not revealed in some way to someone.
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: But, Glass, that is the very point of my question. How do you know what constitutes 'doing good'? Upon what basis is an action considered 'good' or 'better' than some other act? And how do you know what, if any, reward is tied to those actions and when you will receive them if it is not revealed in some way to someone.
and my point to you is to ask the same question of you and anyone else who is selling me realestate in heaven or earthly rewards from God.
i consider my skills to be a Gift from God, and i aproach my work in that way everyday without expectation of any reward from God.
the gift from God is NOT that i personally got the skills, the Gift is the whole thing, life, the things we have to use to do waht we do, the energy to do it etc...
those who pretend to know all those religious teachings about rewards are frauds IMO. show me proof, and i'll beleive, but proof that they are frauds is already abundant. the fact that mosquitoes with malaria bite an dhave bitten million upon millions of innocent infants is enough evidence for me
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posted
Just looking for consistency, Glass. On one hand you say you disbelieve in revelation then cite teachings/commandments from a man who claimed to speak with God through a burning bush.
quote:show me proof, and i'll beleive,
The fact that the ancient egyptians or greeks had no 'proof' of the existence of DNA or Nuclear Fission did not negate their reality.
(shrug)
But we've strayed quite far from the intent of this thread. Why is it that when people are getting fired for speaking ill of Islam that Catholics and Mormons are still considered fair game?
posted
Why is it that when people are getting fired for speaking ill of Islam that Catholics and Mormons are still considered fair game?
i dunno... it's wrong, and i'm not sure that it was fair for people to be fired for being honest for saying they are afraid.
i do think it's wrong NOT to address those fears openly and have reasonable dialogue. that's how you fix preoblems, but people have to be reasonable.. If i wear a US uniform rto place where we just were in a war? I expect people to react... good and bad.. I can't help it ifi don't recognise another persons cultural attire as NOT a uniform until i am actually exposed to it..
on th eother hand? if i say i want "them" off my plane just cuz they look different? then i am being unreasonable, right?
the terroists were out to make people change, that's the defined goal of terroristic activity-changing other peoples behaviour.
as to Moses and his commandments? i think some of themmake sense for a better life for everybody, and i think some of them are a sales job... a jealous God? hmmmmm... jealousy is one of the baser human traits.. not very God-like IMO...
the Egytpians had chimera statues,sphynx people with croc heads, wings, hawk heads, jackal heads, do you beleive in them? did they see them and make them from real subjects, or were they imagination, or were they metaphorical?
why do religions eventually become mythology? i assure you the Romans were just as serious about their Gods in 400BC as people are today, whichever names they give them..
Hercules, son a human woman and Zuess (top God of the day)... hmmmmm... sounds vaguely similar to another ....
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posted
ROFL, religious history is a personal favorite of mine, Glass. I've enjoyed reading and studying differing belief structures for years. The Hercules case in specific (or the demi-god concept in general) is not unique to any specific religion. The mating of the human and divine (or supernatural) is found in most belief structures. The similarities between belief systems vastly outweigh the differences in most cases. This has lead several scholars to debate the existance of an 'alpha' religion from which the rest took pieces and adapted. From the judeo-christian viewpoint this makes sense since Adam/Eve would have taught a belief structure which would have been the foundation of all future cultures. (shrug) I could spend days and threads on this one so I'll let you decide how far you would like to go with this on a seperate thread.
quote:i dunno... it's wrong, and i'm not sure that it was fair for people to be fired for being honest for saying they are afraid.
i do think it's wrong NOT to address those fears openly and have reasonable dialogue. that's how you fix preoblems, but people have to be reasonable..
posted
SF, have you researched Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago? The church who had a very controversial speaker of Jewish hatred and was pastor to President Obama.
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posted
Very little about the church in specific. It was the Jeremiah Wright lead church that Obama attended for twenty some odd years. (shrug) They have there very own wiki link:
What little I know that applies is that they teach a 'brand' of Christianity known as 'black liberation' theology. If you want to discuss what makes this theology different than mainstream christianity we can. If it's mostly the controversy surrounding Wright that interests you I think Glenn Beck has beaten that horse to death several times over...(not that Wright made it really difficult)...
posted
People being reasonable...what a novel idea.
true enough...
you asked me about he Ten Commandments, and i found this "schaloarly" page interesting, it includes what i consider to be the "distillation" of his red words...
it's in PDF and i somehow "lost" my cahracter recognion tool so ican't cut-n-paste form apdf like used to....
it also talks about the what made Moses tablets physically unusual...
keep in mind that my views are my own and i do respect other peoples Faith, i am only intersted in sharing my views with interested people who either wish to "change" my views (you are welcome to try politley) or are intereested in mine... i am generally interested in in all views but i am not going to just latch onto them for my own. i do beleive that epiphanies are possible and when one happnes to me i willbe prepared to accept it.
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posted
Interesting page. I actually hadn't read that there was a Midrash that held that the Tablets were made of saphire. I'll have to find some time at the end of the semester to dig a little deeper into that link.
quote:keep in mind that my views are my own and i do respect other peoples Faith, i am only intersted in sharing my views with interested people who either wish to "change" my views (you are welcome to try politley) or are intereested in mine... i am generally interested in in all views but i am not going to just latch onto them for my own. i do beleive that epiphanies are possible and when one happnes to me i willbe prepared to accept it.
Everyone has their time, Glass. My approach with religion has always been one of example and comparison. I can't convince anyone.
Have class members read 1 Thessalonians 2:2–3. Point out that Paul said the gospel should be taught with boldness and without deceit or trickery. Elder James E. Talmage added that we should boldly teach the truth without criticizing or attacking other people’s beliefs. Share the following story to illustrate this:
When he was a student, Elder Talmage was once approached by a man offering to sell him an excellent oil lamp. Elder Talmage already had a lamp he felt was satisfactory, but he allowed the lamp seller to come up to his room to demonstrate.
“We entered my room, and I put a match to my well-trimmed lamp. My visitor was high in his praise. It was the best lamp of its kind, he said, and he had never seen a lamp in better trim. He turned the wick up and down, and pronounced the judgment perfect.
“ ‘Now,’ he said, ‘with your permission I’ll light my lamp,’ taking it from his satchel. … Its light made bright the remotest corner of my room. Its brilliant blaze made the flame in my lamp weak and pale. Until that moment of convincing demonstration I had never known the dim obscurity in which I had lived and labored, studied and struggled.”
Elder Talmage bought the new lamp, and he later suggested what we can learn from the lamp seller as we teach the gospel: “The man who would sell a lamp did not disparage mine. He placed his greater light alongside my feebler flame, and I hasted to obtain it.
“The missionary servants of the Church of Jesus Christ today are sent forth, not to assail nor ridicule the beliefs of men, but to set before the world a superior light, by which the smoky dimness of the flickering flames of man-made creeds shall be apparent. The work of the Church is constructive, not destructive”
posted
i like that story. it goes well with my feeling that people who have fears should be able to find a way to express them fairly. that is IMO how you overcome all kinds of major problems.
alos i wanted to make soemthing clear that i didn't address well;
. On one hand you say you disbelieve in revelation then cite teachings/commandments from a man who claimed to speak with God through a burning bush.
i didn't accept the 10 commandments as written by God. I mant that i beleive they were impressive, adn make sense for the most part, but that i cannot overcome the Anthropomrphisation of God that appears in them. jealousy is trait of the Greek and Roman Gods, but not of the One God IMO... so, the tablets may have been inspired, but they were still advertising and or propagandized to supplement the power Moses already weilded over his people.
i don't mean to be disrepctful to anybody , but i can't reconcile it no matter how hard i try...
people'round these hear parts like to put up signs of them in their yards all over, and most of them prolly never considered the ridiculousness of the concept that an Omnipotent is jealous
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