posted
One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.
General Orders (2 May 1778); published in Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XI, pp. 342-343
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to William Canby (18 September 1813).
To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to Benjamin Rush (12 April 1803)
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: LOL, it's been almost exactly one year since we went the rounds on this one, Jordan. Here's the link if you want to skim it.
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.
General Orders (2 May 1778); published in Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XI, pp. 342-343
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to William Canby (18 September 1813).
To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to Benjamin Rush (12 April 1803)
SF, he really doesnt like to be proven wrong.
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Clearly, this country was founded by thinkers who saw the traps in dogmatic religion. Hence our guarantee to 1) freedom of religion and 2) freedom from religion.
No matter what anyone digs up in or out of context, there's no denying the founders intended us to be free of any sort of "national religion."
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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posted
Very true the framers were thinking of sounding good but the did not let people have a fair say.
Like women,poor white males,African Americans, and Native Americans were not Allowed to vote period.
I do say one thing the constitution was a flexable enough document that could let change take place even it did take 150 years and the struggle goes on yet its not 100% finished.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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Clearly, this country was founded by thinkers who saw the traps in dogmatic religion. Hence our guarantee to 1) freedom of religion and 2) freedom from religion.
No matter what anyone digs up in or out of context, there's no denying the founders intended us to be free of any sort of "national religion."
LOL, I challenge you to find one instance of 'Freedom FROM Religion' in ANY form from the works of the Founders, Tex.
You are right, however, on your final point. They did not want there to be a National religion. This was in reaction to the Catholic\Church of England type spats. They wanted every man to worship God as they chose. But they all, almost to a man, believed in God and believed that religion and morality were inseperable.
posted
I have to disagree, Jordan. Freedom of religion means you are free to worship (or not worship) as you see fit. It does NOT mean that you will not encounter it.
Let's use the example of the Pledge of Allegance. It has been removed from many schools in a mistaken (imo) impression that the "under God" infringes on some people's right to not worship. A more consistant path would be to have the pledge and allow those kids (or their parents) who disagee to choose not to participate. By removing it entirely you are, in fact, infringing on the rights of those that believe in it and what it stands for.
Do you see the difference? By giving a vocal minority their 'freedom from religion, you are taking away the majority's freedom of religion.
posted
Well all of you miss one very important point most of the founders had close enough tie to Europe yet to see people murderd because of relegious beliefes. And these victims most could not escape the people that wanted to kill them they were hunted.
Never let us forget the pilgrams fit into this catagory.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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Clearly, this country was founded by thinkers who saw the traps in dogmatic religion. Hence our guarantee to 1) freedom of religion and 2) freedom from religion.
No matter what anyone digs up in or out of context, there's no denying the founders intended us to be free of any sort of "national religion."
LOL, I challenge you to find one instance of 'Freedom FROM Religion' in ANY form from the works of the Founders, Tex.
You are right, however, on your final point. They did not want there to be a National religion. This was in reaction to the Catholic\Church of England type spats. They wanted every man to worship God as they chose. But they all, almost to a man, believed in God and believed that religion and morality were inseperable.
Dang...it's the very first phrase of the First Amendment.
That's what makes the tacked-on phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance hinky: they should return to the original wording.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Dang...it's the very first phrase of the First Amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Really, Tex? Not sure how you see that interpretation.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion... simply means they shall not establish, by law, a STATE religion.
...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; means that they CANNOT pass laws prohibiting ANYONE from exercising the right to PRACTICE their religion.
Now, before you get all, 'hey, that means sharia law is ok', remember that one's rights end when they trample on anothers. Nowhere does it say you have the right to not be offended by someone else's beliefs or their practicing of them.
quote:Originally posted by raybond: Seeking freedom in our schools which are public they sould be free of religion so as not to make one sect feel outside of society
Same as politics in a church the two don't mix
Question, Ray...
How large does the minority have to be before they can tell the majority what they have to do so that noone's feelings get hurt?
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: when would you want to hurt anyone's feelings?
Intentionally? Never.
But I cannot control what others feel about what I or someone else happens to say\believe. If you are offended by something like, say, the pledge of allegiance, you have the right NOT to repeat it...you do NOT have the right not to be offended by it or to force others NOT to repeat it.
posted
You can worship whatever you want where ever you want... The idea is that government can not endorse any religion, nor should it found laws based on any religion. One can be moral and not believe in God. Morality is common sense.
I don't get what this argument is over really?
Are the Christians feeling **** upon for some reason?
Get over it. Your religion is just as fake as all the rest.
Allowing government to speak for God.. Wow among ****ty ideas that's a monster.
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posted
it shouldnt even be a choice.."under god" should not be in the pledge...now that i think about it.. really have never given it a moments thought..but its just wrong..{shrugs}..this country was not founded under god
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: when would you want to hurt anyone's feelings?
Intentionally? Never.
But I cannot control what others feel about what I or someone else happens to say\believe. If you are offended by something like, say, the pledge of allegiance, you have the right NOT to repeat it...you do NOT have the right not to be offended by it or to force others NOT to repeat it.
Lol, it's not a matter so trivial as being offended--it could be life or death. That's why the founders didn't want to open that door.
Look, let's say my party, the Toadies, get in power. We change the Pledge again, not back to the original, but since we worship the Great Creator Toad who lives in the center of the Eaarth, now you and your kid have to recite the PLEDGE no matter where you are every morning at 8:15-- "I pledge allegiance to the flag. . . Republic for which it stands, one Nation over Toad..."
The first offense is a fine. It escalates into jail time and ultimately a death sentence.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: One other note:
Every single U.S. President (save one) has taken his Oath of Office by swearing on the 'Christian' Bible.
and yet the Article 6 of Constitution clearly states
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
now take note, this is not an amendment, this was written in the original Constitution
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
i can't beleive nobody responded to this yet,these quotes you posted of Tom Jefferson? they are Deism in the Age Enlightenment:
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to William Canby (18 September 1813).
To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.
Thomas Jefferson Letter to Benjamin Rush (12 April 1803)
you will note that he speaks *only* of morality in the first quote. He speaks nothing of Salvation which is the basis for all Christian religions. Salvation is not simply important it defines what Christianity is. The Jews beleive that Jesus was a good teacher. Jefferson could have been Jewish and still expressed this beleif...
In the second quote? Again he is talking about moral conscience.
He specifically denies any other attributes to Jesus than human excellence. He is specifically denying Jesus' "saviourship" or Deity... There's nothing there to suggest that Jesus is God. Christians beleive Jesus is God and hte Saviour. Ask any one of them.
Precepts are rules.... Jefferson is clearly saying that Jesus gave good rules to live by and never claimed any other...
there is only one way to interpret this:
ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.
TJ did not Worship Jesus. He followed his teachings and beleived they were excellent, but he beleived he was human. He is saying so in very few words...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
LOL, I challenge you to find one instance of 'Freedom FROM Religion' in ANY form from the works of the Founders, Tex.
and i take that challenge and show you article 6 (again)
but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
that is Freedom FROM religion. pure and simple..
it is plainly written. the Founders could not have been more clear. You can not be required to take an oath before God to hold office and ANY requirement that you do so is UnConstitutionl..
requiring you to swear an oath on a Bible is likewise a Religious test and is not Constitutional. It is purely voluntary.
the Constituion is flexIble to some degree, but in this wording? It not flexible at all....
*shall* and *ever* are both clear legal words with power.
public Trust? that's pretty much any Citizens responsibilities. note that they say *any* Office *or* public Trust. capitalizations are important too..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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