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Author Topic: Health care bill getting disected......
a surfer
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At least somebody has read part of it even if congress hasn't.
> *Subject:* A few highlights from the first 500 pages of the Healthcare bill in congress...>
> Contact your Representatives and let them know how you feel about this. We, as a country, cannot afford another 1000 page bill to go through congress without being read. Another 500 pages to go. I have highlighted a few of the items ....
>
> • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
> • Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
> • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
> 8 0 Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
> • Page 50: *All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services*.
> • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
> *_• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
> _*• Page 65: *Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans20(read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)*
> • Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
> • Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
> • Page 91: *Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens*
> *_• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
> _*• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
> • Page 124: No company can sue the government for pr ice-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
> • Page 127: *The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages*.
> *• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
> *• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
> *• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the _public option_, pays an 8% tax on payroll
> • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the _public option_, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
> • Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
> • Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
> *• *_Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records._*
> • Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
> • Page 239: *Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected*."
> • Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
> • Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
> • Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
> • Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
> • Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
> • Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
> • Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
> • Page 317: *Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies*!
> • Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without gov ernment approval.
> • Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
> • Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
> • Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
> • Page 354: *Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals*.
> • Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
> • Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
> • Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
> *_• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death._*
> • Page 427: Government mandates program that=2 0orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
> • Page 429: *Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.*
> _*• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
> *_• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
> • Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
> • Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
> • Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
>
>

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Lockman
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Kinda scary if you ask me.

And I'm sure my Senator The Dis-honorable Chris Dodd will be one of the first to sign and not read.

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Let's Go METS!!!

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CashCowMoo
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This is sick, talk about special interests.

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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Newbie13
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WoW! This vet knows his sh*t and it doesn't seem like a lot of support for this senator on health care! Educated man... I like that.

Oh wait though... I have to keep working so I can pay for the people who don't. Get a clue.. all for helping the people who really need it, but so many are capable of working up the ladder like the rest of us have! I'm scared either way this issue goes!

Good luck to all you lefty's and righty's!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y98HxYbsdBM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efacebook%2Eco m%2Fhome%2Ephp&feature=player_embedded

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Newbie13
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• Page 354: *Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals*.

----------------

Are you kiding me?!!! The people who need it the most! R I D I C U L O U S!

------------------------------

> *• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
> *• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
> *• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the _public option_, pays an 8% tax on payroll
> • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the _public option_, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
> • Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
> • Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
----------------------

This is laughable.... The American Dream.... come to the USA legally! Work hard, start small and work your way up to create a good life! (Work ethic)

The NEW American Dream.... come to the USA get on public assistance, find a way to get more, the people who work 40 to 80 hours a week will pay for it!!! Gotta love it

Why isn't the Governments plan just going to be an option for people instead of a Mandate? I wouldn't mind if this was just an option for people. Choice is what made this country GREAT! We all make them and we all have to live with the choices we make! So please don't make excuses for the people who make piss pour choices time and time again!

I'm glad I already work and pay for my insurance! (I fore went the nice fancy vehicle so I have insurance! 2001 hyundia accent woo hoo)

Hope they don't take my insurance away!

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glassman
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this is funny:

Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).

what is a non-resident alien?
see IRS form 851:

Since resident and nonresident aliens are taxed differently, it is important for you to determine your status. You are considered a nonresident alien for any period that you are neither a United States citizen nor a United States resident alien.

You are considered a resident alien if you met one of two tests for the calendar year.

The first test is the "green card test." If at any time during the calendar year you were a lawful permanent resident of the United States according to the immigration laws, and this status has not been rescinded or administratively or judicially determined to have been abandoned, you are considered to have met the green card test.

If you are a resident alien, you must follow the same tax laws as U.S. citizens. You are taxed on income from all sources, both within and outside the United States. You will file Form 1040EZ (PDF), Form 1040A (PDF), or Form 1040 (PDF) depending on your tax situation. The return is due by April 15, and should be filed with the service center for your area. If the due date falls on a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday, the due date is delayed until the next business day.


it goes on and on, but basically it means you do business here, and pay SOME taxes but don't really live here as a legal definition.

in other words? you are legally a not a citizen and you don't live here

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
this is funny:

Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).

what is a non-resident alien?
see IRS form 851:

Since resident and nonresident aliens are taxed differently, it is important for you to determine your status. You are considered a nonresident alien for any period that you are neither a United States citizen nor a United States resident alien.

You are considered a resident alien if you met one of two tests for the calendar year.

The first test is the "green card test." If at any time during the calendar year you were a lawful permanent resident of the United States according to the immigration laws, and this status has not been rescinded or administratively or judicially determined to have been abandoned, you are considered to have met the green card test.

If you are a resident alien, you must follow the same tax laws as U.S. citizens. You are taxed on income from all sources, both within and outside the United States. You will file Form 1040EZ (PDF), Form 1040A (PDF), or Form 1040 (PDF) depending on your tax situation. The return is due by April 15, and should be filed with the service center for your area. If the due date falls on a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday, the due date is delayed until the next business day.


it goes on and on, but basically it means you do business here, and pay SOME taxes but don't really live here as a legal definition.

in other words? you are legally a not a citizen and you don't live here

This is what the new majority in congress comes up with?
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glassman
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the IRS already had it on the books.
non-resident aliens pay taxes here, but don't live here. there's lots of 'em.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc851.html

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
At least somebody has read part of it even if congress hasn't.
Bah! Who needs to read what we sign into law?

During his speech at a National Press Club luncheon, House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich.), questioned the point of lawmakers reading the health care bill.


“I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill,’” said Conyers.


“What good is reading the bill if it’s a thousand pages and you don’t have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?”



Don't bother reading it. Just vote for it.

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glassman
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Don't bother reading it. Just vote for it.

yeah, just like the Patriot Act.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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SeekingFreedom
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Yes, Glass. Just like the Patriot act...and the TARP...and the Stimulus...

I'm not saying it's just one side. But to be THAT blatant about it smacks of some pretty healthy hubris.

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
Yes, Glass. Just like the Patriot act...and the TARP...and the Stimulus...

I'm not saying it's just one side. But to be THAT blatant about it smacks of some pretty healthy hubris.

i remember when Hillary didn't read the security breifings before she voted to give Bush war powers in Iraq.


here's the "thing"

memebrs of Congress are similar to any CEO of any corp.

they assign tasks to their employees.

now, i cannot speak directly for any particual meber of congress, but if it were me in there?

i'd have the task divided up into reasonable amounts of data and sifted by my TRUSTED staff and then get breifed by them all at one conference so they can compare notes and hear my questions as i ask them.


as i recall the election cycle in '08? one of the main themes until the TARP program was the congress did nothing


When Democrats won control of Congress in 2006, Republicans were eager to tar them as "do nothing," an echo of Democrat Harry Truman's successful 1948 presidential campaign during which he railed against the "Do Nothing Congress" led by Republicans.

"The Democrats in charge of this Congress have been heavy on fluff and light on substance," says Republican leader Rep. John Boehner of Ohio. "Resolutions are fine but why aren't we also passing legislation to lower gas prices? What about health-care reform and runaway entitlement spending?"



BTW? that's from the WSJ not exactly a "Liberal Rag"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121910897089651793.html


of course as soon as they do something? it's too fast. [BadOne]

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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in case you aren't sure if this was a major them? i can pull over 100 articles to backitup:

Put Up or Shut Down?
“Do-Nothing Congress” has little time left for appropriations.

By David Freddoso

September 4, 2007 6:30 AM


The Democratic 110th Congress has passed 80 bills that President Bush has signed into law. These include 35 bills naming or renaming federal facilities (mostly post offices); ten bills extending current laws and levels of spending on such items as Indian housing and a commission on diplomacy, and one bill allowing construction of a 540-foot stretch of road in eastern Missouri. Just before the August recess, Congress also unanimously passed a bill to rebuild the collapsed bridge in Minnesota.


that's the National Review

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTRhZWE0NTg2OWYyMjIzMzc2OTc2M2EwM2U3MGQ4NmI =

and on and on and on ad nauseum...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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to be fair? this do-nothing theme has been the theme of one side or the other in almost all the campaigns

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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SeekingFreedom
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And I don't disagree with any of that. If you do nothing, nothing can come back to haunt you, I guess. This was something in Pres. Obama's campaign that I actually applauded. His '5 day online' pledge. I had my doubts because in general, the most vocal opinion is not always the majority opinion. But I thought that it would be a step in the right direction to hold those '545 people' accountable. I still hope he gets around to implementing it before his time is up.
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glassman
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politics is some screwed up stuff.

imo you have to be a little crazy to want to follow a career in it.

i don't even think there's a cure for the insanity [Wink]

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Lockman
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Term limits...then at least in their last term they aren't just trying to get elected again.

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Let's Go METS!!!

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CashCowMoo
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So...what does this mean for me since im a small business owner? Will I be strong armed?

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
So...what does this mean for me since im a small business owner? Will I be strong armed?

don't hire employees, hire sub-contractors

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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raybond
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Republicans Reveal Their Hypocrisy On Health Care, Refuse To Support Bill To Kill Government-Run Medicare
For months, Republicans have been trying to scare Americans away from supporting a public option in health care reform, claiming that “government-run” medicine is akin to socialism and would be disastrous. But the government already runs several successful, well-loved health care programs — most notably, Medicare.

Yesterday, Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) decided that it was “put-up or shut-up time for the phonies who deride the so-called ‘public option.’” He offered an amendment that would eliminate government-run Medicare:


Not a single member of Congress voted for the amendment, and Republicans were blasting it as a “political farce.” Last night, Weiner went on MSNBC and explained the GOP’s hypocrisy:

WEINER: Well, for some reason, I guess Republicans don’t like publicly funded, publicly administered health plans except for Medicare, and, I guess, except for the Veterans Administration and except for the health care that our military gets from the Department of Defense. The fact of the matter is, what we’ve learned is that government administered health care works pretty darn well. It’s got lower overhead and people like it.

So, when my Republican colleagues pound the drum and pound the podium about how they hate government-run health care, I guess they haven’t looked at what they get.
Republicans are refusing to acknowledge the hypocrisy in their statements warning about “socialized” medicine and their support for Medicare. Of course, conservatives also opposed the creation of Medicare in the 1960s and made many of the same claims that their counterparts are doing today. Forty-four years later, Medicare has helped America’s senior citizens live longer, healthier lives. By not voting for Weiner’s amendment, conservatives are acknowledging that their supposedly substantive claims about health care reform are nothing more than crass political fear-mongering.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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Newbie13
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RAYBOND...
Blah...blah....blah.... blah

There's just as much democratic redorick about issues as well! DEMS/ REPS who gives a F*CK.
What about the AMERICAN PEOPLE???
poor, rich, middle class, white, black, or hispanic.. amongst many more!

What's all wise raybonds solution? or better yet compromise to benefit the most americans? not just either parties interest?!!!

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Newbie13
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Why doon't we make this a true democracy and get ride of most of government and let the people vote on the issues?
Then and only then will the majority of voices be heard!
Instead of some I don't care except for my namesake senator or represenative!

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Newbie13:
Why doon't we make this a true democracy and get ride of most of government and let the people vote on the issues?
Then and only then will the majority of voices be heard!
Instead of some I don't care except for my namesake senator or represenative!

because then the poor would really be in control,

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Newbie13:
RAYBOND...
Blah...blah....blah.... blah

There's just as much democratic redorick about issues as well! DEMS/ REPS who gives a F*CK.
What about the AMERICAN PEOPLE???
poor, rich, middle class, white, black, or hispanic.. amongst many more!

What's all wise raybonds solution? or better yet compromise to benefit the most americans? not just either parties interest?!!!

redorick=rhetoric maybe?

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It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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The Bigfoot
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Question....who here has read or even attempted to read H.R. 3200? Other than Glass that is...lol

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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The Bigfoot
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P.S. Glass,

I do believe that the non-resident alien description became necessary to identify seasonal migrant workers within the tax code. Not completely sure on that one though.

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
Question....who here has read or even attempted to read H.R. 3200? Other than Glass that is...lol

not me...I been wading through this:

http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/ppdp/2009/ppdp0904.pdf

Talk about dense [Roll Eyes]

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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rounder1
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I will ask a the same question that is before congress.....I will just put it in more simple terms:

Why should any other person carry the burden (without freedom of choice) for my lifestyle, my genetics, my misfortune?

Ultimately, the passage of this bill will curb the profitability of the medical practice in the U.S.......follow the logic.

If that happens....the best and the brightest will focus their interests elsewhere because it will cease to be as profitable to cure cancer, aids, alzheimers, herpes, syphilus, .........to infinity.

I would imagine that they would all become personal injury lawyers and run commercials every five minutes on Fox News (i like fox....but they should quit runninn those stupid commericials).

We all go back and forth about everything that the government does......rarely do we b***h about private industry.

Does anyone on this board, beit dem or rep., really want to trust the welfare of their family to the political machine that has become D.C.......

I say "HELL NO." Give me the overpriced insurance company and the Doc that has to drive a Mercedes.........At least I know what their motivations are.

With the government fools you don't know what your up against........

You guys do a ton of research and I thank you all for it; but, c'mon......imo.....this is not an area of your life that you want the government in.

If you accept this we should change the governments nickname from "uncle sam" to "daddy sam."

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"The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)

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The Bigfoot
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quote:
Originally posted by rounder1:
I will ask a the same question that is before congress.....I will just put it in more simple terms:

Why should any other person carry the burden (without freedom of choice) for my lifestyle, my genetics, my misfortune?


They already do Rounder. It is called Insurance and if you think there is freedom of choice involved feel 'free' to cancel your plan and show us the results of your choice.

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T e x
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Why should any other person carry the burden (without freedom of choice) for my lifestyle, my genetics, my misfortune?

hold on, take a breath...

what is the "burden" you describe?

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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rounder1
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Point taken....and it is valid.

However, it is not universal. As a free enterprise.....insurance companies will deny coverage to people that are more at risk or have pre-existing conditions.

This means that I am paying for the benefits that I will use; and, for the most part, persons that are at approximately the same risk level as I (and my family) are. If either of these criteria are trumped.....it is only done because there are enough people to make the risk to the insurer financially feasible....if not advantageous.

I noticed that you addressed only one aspect of the argument that I put forth.

What say you about the repression of R and D?

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quote:
Originally posted by rounder1:

If that happens....the best and the brightest will focus their interests elsewhere because it will cease to be as profitable to cure cancer, aids, alzheimers, herpes, syphilus, .........to infinity.


They're attention will wander elsewhere eh? Kinda like big Pharma's has???

quote:
But while the rhetoric is stirring, it has very little to do with reality. First, research and development (R&D) is a relatively small part of the budgets of the big drug companies—dwarfed by their vast expenditures on marketing and administration, and smaller even than profits.

Second, the pharmaceutical industry is not especially innovative. As hard as it is to believe, only a handful of truly important drugs have been brought to market in recent years, and they were mostly based on taxpayer-funded research at academic institutions, small biotechnology companies, or the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The great majority of "new" drugs are not new at all but merely variations of older drugs already on the market.

Third, the industry is hardly a model of American free enterprise. To be sure, it is free to decide which drugs to develop (me-too drugs instead of innovative ones, for instance), and it is free to price them as high as the traffic will bear, but it is utterly dependent on government-granted monopolies—in the form of patents and Food and Drug Administration (FDA)–approved exclusive marketing rights. If it is not particularly innovative in discovering new drugs, it is highly innovative—and aggressive—in dreaming up ways to extend its monopoly rights.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244

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rounder1
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quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
Why should any other person carry the burden (without freedom of choice) for my lifestyle, my genetics, my misfortune?

hold on, take a breath...

what is the "burden" you describe?

I require intensive medical treatment.....that comes at a premium cost......why should you have to pay for it.

To B.F.s point.....that happens with insurance today.....but you maintain the option of finding other companies.

I will concede that in almost every case....it will continue to play out about the same way; but, if that is the case then why is there a need for a "national healthcare" program.

You may say that; "there are people with no insurance." That is valid.....However, those are the people that would not pay into the government anyway. So you are left with this.....

Healthcare for everyone.....and the same amount of people paying in to it.....= costs go up.....or you just tax the most successful to cover it. The latter idea is the most appealing to politicians because you satisfy the majority and piss off the minority.....then again.....there are fewer and fewer wealth people.....they only cast so many votes.

Then, again if my question about R and D is addressed then perhaps there are fewer wealthy people to cover our a$$......People should understand something about the wealthy.....they will not let anyone tax them into poverty.....they will eventually pick up their marbles and find another place to play.

At that point.....it ends up with my poor a$$ paying for your poor a$$.......

With all choice removed the only way for me to come out on top is to be sicker than you.

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"The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)

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rounder1
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quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
Why should any other person carry the burden (without freedom of choice) for my lifestyle, my genetics, my misfortune?

hold on, take a breath...

what is the "burden" you describe?



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"The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)

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T e x
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Is this your answer to my "burden" question?

quote:
I require intensive medical treatment.....that comes at a premium cost......why should you have to pay for it.
cuz if it is, I can answer that, too...

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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