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Author Topic: Consevative new scare tactic about health care
raybond
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Conservatives fabricate ‘mandatory’ end-of-life consultations in health bill.
Yesterday, during President Obama’s AARP town hall, a caller stated that she had “heard lots of rumors going around about this new plan.” “I have been told,” she continued, “there is a policy there that everyone that’s Medicare-age will be visited and told to decide how they wish to die.” This “rumor,” which seems to have been started by infamous health care provocateur Betsy McCaughey, has made its way into the standard conservative critique of the Democrats’ reforms. Watch a compilation:

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a surfer
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Raybond,

Thats the last issue of this bill thats of immediate concern.

Do you understand that IF this was to pass that government "workers" would be responsible for over 55% of our annual GDP.

Ask yourself if thats what you think your fore fathers wanted.

Be honest......


This is not a partisan issue.

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CashCowMoo
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He wont ever admit if he is wrong

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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glassman
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peopoe deserve to hear the truth surf,

government "workers" would be responsible for over 55% of our annual GDP.

does it even matter anymore?

somebody recently asked if our health wasn't worth every penny...

well that's what the health care providers are working on getting. every penny we got.


the bigger problem is that we are in the process of shipping all of our jobs overseas anyway.

there are no other major industrialised nations without govt run health care provided to about 90% of their citizens, except China, which basically has no health plan whatsoever as of today.

last year? we spent over 7000$ per PERSON in the US.

the health insurance co's will be dead in a few years anyway, unless THEY start rationing. the HMO's have been since day one.

pay rates stopped going up in large part because health care costs were eating up the money that could have been paid.

the US worker is the most productive worker in the world and we pay the highest percentage of GDP toward health care , this is now two years old:

U.S. Workers Ranked as World's Most Productive

Thanks to longer workdays and better training, U.S. employees generate more overall value than those in other nations.
By Angus Loten | Sep 18, 2007

Despite recent gains in parts of Asia and Eastern Europe, longer workdays are keeping the United States more productive than other nations, a new report shows.

Last year, U.S. workers each produced $63,885 in value-added labor, compared to $55,986 by workers in Ireland, the next closest economy, according to the United Nation's International Labor Office.

Yet, measured as value added per hour worked, American workers dropped behind those in Norway where workers produced $37.99 per hour, compared to $35.63 in the United States and $35.08 in France. That's because U.S. employees tend to work much longer hours than workers in other developed economies, the Geneva-based agency reported.


http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200709/labor.html


in spite of all the claims of people running to America for health care?

the people running here are extremely affluent and there is no data to show that they get HEALTHIER. sure they get thier butts kissed by the people they are paying cash to, but statistically? the US leads the industrialised world in several of the bad categories like infant mortality and death from infection at hospitals...

the fact is? i know of no other business where the customer never looks at the cost of the service until after the service has been provided.

when they talk about the govt rationing health care? they are talking about stopping people from going to the doctor for a cold cuz they'll get better on their own anyway....

docotors know this, yet they "have" to prescribe SOMETHING, anything just to please the patients.


people with insurance go because they do not have to pay the bill... their insurance does.

people without insurance go to the ER because they cannot be turned away and the ER charges our INSURANCE anyway.

so something does in fact have to be done.

it is a good question, what is your health worth?

just don't ask that in a malpractice case right?

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T e x
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We should pay the doctor once a week or month or quarter, as long we're well--then stop paying when we get sick...then start paying again when we're well.

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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CashCowMoo
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no way tex!

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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T e x
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why not? People would get well quicker...

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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raybond
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Sufer and cow I never heard of a more piss poor argument in my life.

Bringing up our for fathers look at someone like Bush,Ronnie bonzo boy, they certainly crapped on the laws of the land.

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raybond
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some repulican remarks conservative idiots

V- Laura Ingraham: Old people could be visited in their homes and essentially be told ” all right, sweetie, you’ve had a good life...I don’t want a government bureaucrat telling him what kind of treatment he should consider to be a good citizen. That’s frightening.

- Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC): [Americans will be] put to death by their government.

- Rush Limbaugh: The bureaucratic going to make the decisions. You aren’t. And it’s in the House bill. Once you reach, I don’t know what the age is, every five years, it’s in the sixties, every five years some counselor shows up.

- Sean Hannity: In other words, they would mandate that those who get government care literally could be pushed to refuse care.

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Kaona
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Well looks like no one will be able to use sick days anymore beacuse noone is "sick enough" now.

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Night shift stock player.

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a surfer
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
Sufer and cow I never heard of a more piss poor argument in my life.

Bringing up our for fathers look at someone like Bush,Ronnie bonzo boy, they certainly crapped on the laws of the land.

You have your head so far up your azz that you're talk is muddled by your own fecal matter and all you see is brown.......good luck with that.
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Newbie13
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I'm kind of split on this issue. I want the government to be an option to compete against the private sector, in hopes that the cheaper competition will bring down the over all cost of health care. Not to be mandated as a cure all save all.
I studied sports medicine and interned at two separate hospitals. I eventually changed my major my junior year because I hated the beaurocracy in the hospital, not the care.

Why haven't I seen or heard of any preventative care measures in this, ie. fighting obesity, alcoholism, etc.
Also why isn't there legislation to end ridiculous law suits that have cause all premiums to sky rocket the last couple decades?

I believe it's a case of each party pushing there own AGENDA instead of coming together in constructive debate and find what would be best for the majority, not just certian money brackets! or NON money brackets!

As for all the "poor people" I know plenty of people I know on state assistance, some who deserve it and some who play it. All of them have state subsidized health care (COBRA) which is actually great for them. It's free except for the very very low co-pays on office visits and perscriptions.
I know system first hand, because when I broke my back 3.5 years ago I had no insurance and needed to ask for assistance and they placed me on cobra and it was affective retro active to the piont I was hurt. So I am very grateful for the help, but I don't want the BIG Brother government in DC running healthcare as a whole. The should be the firm that subsidizes out to state programs now and let the states open up there restrictions some to help include all children and the adults who truely need it.

JMO

Cheers!

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The Bigfoot
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Newbie,

Are you sure what you were in was called Cobra? State subsidized health care and COBRA are two very different things in my health care vernacular. State subsidized insurance is a cheap option available to those who are meet low income thresholds. COBRA is extended coverage available for purchase after you leave a job and generally cost several hundred dollars a month. Something generally only used to gap fill.

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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Newbie13
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You are correct BF. It is called the HUSKY PLAN. My bad!
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glassman
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how's your back doing now?

do you feel that you were given adequate care?


the point i'm interested in getting at is that even tho quite a few people in America are not covered, we as Americans still find a way to pay the bills ALREADY.

the care may not be as good, (or it may be) but we still bear the costs already because the American Opinion is that we want everybody to have the health care they need.

most people that are not covered are just out of college or just left home and are not yet in a "career" job that provides the benefits.

much of this could be fixed by allowing parents to carry their kids longer on their policies

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glassman
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Also why isn't there legislation to end ridiculous law suits that have cause all premiums to sky rocket the last couple decades?

the cost of all these lawsuits is not why health care costs have soared.

that is simply another paper tiger.

the right to a civil trial (lawsuit) is Constitutionally protected.

if you lost an arm because of someone not properly labeling a medication or the provider not reading the label? do you feel that you should be limited to what your arm is worth?

i ask this in particular because it is a recent notorious case.

i would not have a problem with limiting what a lawyer can collect for fees in these cases [Big Grin]

people don't want the govt deciding what care they get? but they do want the govt deciding what their arm is worth?

Bush recomended 250,000 case limits.

that's 1/3 to the lawyer and the rest of the other half to expenses.

so losing an arm would be compensated by 125,000$?

i don't think so.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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another claim is that doctors HAVE to order so many extra tests to "protect" themselves from lawsuits.

that sounds great.

however, a little DD on the business side shows very different stories.

it shows ownership by doctors in labs. totally reasonable, i have no problem with them investing in their industry, but please be realistic and honest about it.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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raybond
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sufer
You have your head so far up your azz that you're talk is muddled by your own fecal matter and all you see is brown.......good luck with that.
-------------------------------------------------

Thanks but I can't get my head in there to many replican are having lunch

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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raybond
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Here is a real conservative brain storm


Right-Wing Florida Legislators Propose State Constitutional Amendment To Ban Federal Health Care
As the Obama administration and Congress work to pass legislation that would expand affordable coverage for all Americans, some state lawmakers are trying to preemptively undermine those efforts.

Earlier this week, Florida State Senator Carey Baker (R) and State Representative Scott Plakon (R) introduced a state Constitutional amendment that, if adopted, would prevent Floridians from enrolling in any federal health care plan. The language of House Joint Resolution 37 states:

To preserve the freedom of all residents of the state to provide for their own health care:

A law or rule shall not compel, directly or indirectly, any person, employer, or health care provider to participate in any health care system.

“We believe this unprecedented power-grab by President Obama and Congress is clearly not in the best interests of the citizens of Florida,” Baker and Plakon said in a joint statement. Baker, who is a Republican candidate for Commissioner of Agriculture and Consumer Services, participated in the right-wing tea parties on July 4. Both he and Plakon are sponsors of a “sovereignty” memorial, a measure meant to serve “as a notice and a demand to the Federal Government…to cease and desist, effective immediately, from issuing mandates that are beyond the scope of [their] constitutionally delegated powers.”

Their amendment to ban health care would need approval by a three-fifths vote in both the House and Senate. If passed by the legislature, Florida voters would vote on the constitutional amendment on Election Day 2010.

The Orlando Sentinel notes, “Nearly 4 million Floridians are uninsured presently, and an effort last year by Gov. Charlie Crist and the Legislature called ‘Cover Florida’ to try and make more no-frills coverage plans available without placing mandates on businesses or insurers has so far failed to make a dent in that number.”

Unfortunately, Florida is not the only state considering such radical measures. The Arizona state legislature has previously approved a bill that would “put a proposal on the 2010 ballot which would constitutionally override any law, rule or regulation that requires individuals or employers to participate in any particular health care system.”

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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raybond
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GOP Health Plan Is Modeled on Banking Deregulation
Apparently incapable of coming up with a single new idea, House Republicans plan to release a health plan today which is plagiarized almost entirely from the McCain-Palin health plan that voters soundly rejected last November. Amazingly, the “new” GOP plan even lifts McCain’s widely-panned proposal to deregulate the health insurance industry in exactly the same way the banking industry was deregulated over the last several decades. As McCain promised during the 2008 campaign:

I would also allow individuals to choose to purchase health insurance across state lines. . . . Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.

Here’s how this “new” plan works: Once upon a time, banks were governed by something known as “usury laws,” state laws which prohibited lenders from charging excessive interest to homeowners and other borrowers. In 1978, however, the Supreme Court held that banks are only required to follow the usury laws of the state where they are “located,” effectively immunizing banks from the interest rate caps in each of the other 49 states.

The result was a race to the bottom where states competed to enact the least protective usury laws in order to coax the banking industry into relocating within their borders. Eventually, South Dakota “won” this race by repealing its usury laws altogether, and Citibank rewarded South Dakota by moving its lending offices to that state. The rest of the industry soon followed suit, immunizing itself from interest rate caps altogether by locating in places like South Dakota.

At a time when Americans are terrified of being denied care because of a preexisting condition, or even having their health insurance provider pull coverage the minute they get sick, the McCain-Palin/House GOP health plan calls for health insurers to have even greater latitude to deny coverage; and it does so by fully adopting the banking model’s approach to state regulation. If the House Republicans are successful in enacting their plan, a short list of laws that would effectively cease to exist includes:

Women’s Health: 49 states and the District of Columbia require health plans to cover reconstructive surgery after breast cancer, mammograms, and maternity stays;
Fair Appeals: 44 states and the District of Columbia allow patients to appeal denials of coverage to an external review board;
Preexisting Conditions: 38 states and the District of Columbia restrict how far into the past a insurance company can “look-back” to determine whether a patient is disqualified because of a preexisting condition;
Healthy Children: 31 states require health plans to cover well child care.
The choice is clear. President Obama has promised to cut health care costs, expand coverage and eliminate discrimination against Americans with preexisting conditions. Conservatives have a very different vision. They think that insurers “don’t need to be ‘kept honest’ by the government,” and they plan to dismantle many of the existing laws which Americans rely on to ensure that their medical conditions are covered. We have already seen the cost of bank deregulation on the nation’s economy; it is truly mind boggling that conservatives want to do the same thing to health care.
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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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rounder1
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quote:
Originally posted by Newbie13:
I'm kind of split on this issue. I want the government to be an option to compete against the private sector, in hopes that the cheaper competition will bring down the over all cost of health care. Not to be mandated as a cure all save all.
I studied sports medicine and interned at two separate hospitals. I eventually changed my major my junior year because I hated the beaurocracy in the hospital, not the care.

Why haven't I seen or heard of any preventative care measures in this, ie. fighting obesity, alcoholism, etc.
Also why isn't there legislation to end ridiculous law suits that have cause all premiums to sky rocket the last couple decades?

I believe it's a case of each party pushing there own AGENDA instead of coming together in constructive debate and find what would be best for the majority, not just certian money brackets! or NON money brackets!

As for all the "poor people" I know plenty of people I know on state assistance, some who deserve it and some who play it. All of them have state subsidized health care (COBRA) which is actually great for them. It's free except for the very very low co-pays on office visits and perscriptions.
I know system first hand, because when I broke my back 3.5 years ago I had no insurance and needed to ask for assistance and they placed me on cobra and it was affective retro active to the piont I was hurt. So I am very grateful for the help, but I don't want the BIG Brother government in DC running healthcare as a whole. The should be the firm that subsidizes out to state programs now and let the states open up there restrictions some to help include all children and the adults who truely need it.

JMO

Cheers!

There are more poor people than wealthy....

More votes if you appease the poor.....

BTW...I would consider myself lower than middle class; but not poor.

Keep in mind this is all cyclical and expansionary at the same time. If I were an elected official that knew it was the "poor" that put me in office.....How do I make sure that I continue to get elected?

I expand government with shallow promises that make you feel secure. In reality, I am killing incentive.....creating a greater social class divide.....demonizing success (it is very easy to play to a persons envy)......Ultimately I am creating a brand new form of "slavery".....of a type that is not only condoned by the government; but, also created by it.

I think that it was in the movie "Platoon" that a character stated; "Free your mind; and your a$$ will follow."

The greatest social accomplishments will always take place at a local level by persons that know you, care, and love you. If anyone, in this day, is hanging their hopes on elected officials compulsion to "do the right thing" (Spike Lee?).....I believe they are in for a rude awakening. That applies to both sides of the aisle.......Big government is death to the "American Dream".......whether it is big elephant or big donkey.

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"The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)

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Newbie13
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Glassman....

how's your back doing now?
do you feel that you were given adequate care?
------------------------------------------------

Hey Glass. My back is okay, I do yoga everyday, and have an inversion table which works great. The muscular damage is whats the worst. second degree tears through out most of my back. Long story... basically landed upside down and bent back in half.
Thanks for asking!

As to the care, care is care in most place. Mis-diagnosed at the ER then a month later found out the real damage.

But not being able to work for 6-8 months was tough with NO MONEY coming in and big hospital bills. Couldn't get any living assistance but the state did take care of the medical bills. The state was mostly there when I ABSOLUTELY needed the help!!! Thank good my parents are great for letting me move home til I could work again.

Now I'm back stronger than ever. Always risen above anything thrown my way... hell its only pain... and most of it is in the head.
I have more of an eastern and homeopathic philosiphy on medicine after 3 years of intense study and a year of internship.

I agree 85% of lawsuits are just, but the ones that aren't and awarded millions do have an affect on premiums for all of us and the doctor's malpractice ins, or the hospitals insurance.
Lawyers well thats whole other topic! LMAO!

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Rounder1..... BRAVO!! BRAVO!

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
Sufer and cow I never heard of a more piss poor argument in my life.

Bringing up our for fathers look at someone like Bush,Ronnie bonzo boy, they certainly crapped on the laws of the land.

I never even made an argument in this thread...there you go again jumping to conclusions.

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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raybond
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Castor: Tumult at town hall ‘has strengthened my resolve’ to push for health care reform.
Last night, a town hall hosted by Rep. Kathy Castor (D-FL) was disrupted by an angry mob of protesters, which led to at least one fist fight. But the fracas isn’t deterring Castor’s desire for health care reform:

U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, the focus of tumultuous reaction at a town hall meeting Thursday night, said in an interview this morning that the event has strengthened her conviction to support health care reform.

“It has strengthened my resolve to stand up for families and seniors,” Castor said. “Floridians are bearing a great burden in health care costs, more than almost any other state.”

“A healthy debate is good, but the rude behavior is not helpful,” she said. “I think it backfires. The response we’re receiving today is pretty overwhelming to speak up for families and bring down the cost of health care.”

Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-TX) had a similar reaction after he was targeted at a town hall by the right. “I am more committed than ever to win approval of legislation to offer more individual choice to access affordable health care,” said Doggett in a statement. “An effective public plan is essential to

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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raybond
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SEIU receives phone call threatening gun violence over its health care reform advocacy.
The Service Employees International Union, which supports health care reform, received a call today falsely accusing it of engaging in “thuggish violent tactics” and claiming that if the union does not stop disagreeing with reform’s opponents, “y’all are gonna come up against the Second Amendment.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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CashCowMoo
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You know what? The SEIU could just tell some newspaper that happened and everyone believes it. No credibility in my book.

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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FreedomWorks VP Refuses To Try To ‘Calm Down’ Angry Protesters At Health Care Town Hall Meetings »
FreedomWorks, an industry-backed right-wing group led by former GOP congressman Dick Armey, has been heavily engaged in organizing conservatives to ambush Democratic members of Congress supporting health care reform at town halls across the country during the August recess. Its “astroturf” campaign is designed to present the appearance of wide-spread public discontent with health care reform, but the reality is that the town halls have become forums for disruption, extremism and even violence.

Last night on MSNBC, FreedomWorks Vice President Max Pappas boasted about flooding congresspeople’s town hall meetings and “blowing them apart.” “We have about 400,000 on-line members who we can contact with an e-mail database that we have, send them information about when the town halls are, give them briefings on the health care reform plans,” he said.

Pappas was on C-SPAN this morning, and a Republican veteran called in and asked Pappas to “to tell these people to wrap it down.” “We Republicans already have the image of being owned by corporate America. Now we’re getting the image of being owned by wild red-neck America,” the caller complained. But Pappas refused his request, claiming he doesn’t “have the power” to calm down his troops:

PAPPAS: We don’t have the power to control how many people turn out or how they behave there. All we really do is facilitate their participation by letting people know when these town halls are and giving them information about the issues that are going to be discussed The passions are so deep about this issue that we can’t send out an email that says “calm down.”

Another caller who claimed to be from the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) — a group that claims the U.S. is a European country and was founded by a “longtime white-power activist” — praised Pappas. “I want to salute you, you’re a true patriot,” he told Pappas, who later urged the CCC member to join FreedomWorks. “[I]f the caller wants to join FreedomWorks, it’s free. You can sign up on our website and we’ll keep you up to dated on what’s going on on Capitol Hill,” he said.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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raybond
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Sen. Grassley's "Idiotic" Failure In Bipartisanship
August 06, 2009 4:39 pm ET by Matt Finkelstein
Sen. Chuck Grassley made an absurd straw man argument to support his claim that Democratic proposals for health insurance reform are "idiotic."

In a new interview with Newsmax, Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA), who's supposed to be the key player in "bipartisan" health care talks, called Democratic proposals to pay for health insurance reform by taxing the richest one percent of Americans "idiotic":

[Democrats have] got the feeling you can raise taxes on the top one percent and solve all the problems of government. That's not real. You could confiscate, let alone tax, all the income over $250,000 that people make each year, and you couldn't run the federal government for more than three or four months. So it's idiotic to think that's a solution...

But Grassley is setting up a straw man -- and a ridiculous one at that. Nobody is talking about solving "all the problems of government," nobody wants to "confiscate" all income over $250,000, and nobody suggested that doing so would raise enough money to "run the federal government."

What some House Democrats are proposing is a surtax on the super-rich, who in recent years have seen their income skyrocket while middle-class wages remained somewhat flat. As noted by Pat Garofalo, "Between 1979 and 2006, the inflation-adjusted after-tax income of the richest 1 percent of households increased by 256 percent, compared to 21 percent for families in the middle income quintile."


Nonetheless, Bush's tax cuts gave the top one percent of earners over $700 billion in tax breaks over ten years, which didn't exactly stimulate the economy for everyone else. The proposed surtax, which would have no effect on 98.8 percent of Americans, would require them give a portion of that unearned money back, while raising significant revenues for health insurance reform.

At any rate, Grassley's claim that such a plan is "idiotic" is in line with his other recent failures in bipartisanship. Earlier this week, Grassley used Sen. Ted Kennedy's brain tumor to fear monger about a public health insurance option.

–Matt Finkelstein

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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CashCowMoo
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"Between 1979 and 2006, the inflation-adjusted after-tax income of the richest 1 percent of households increased by 256 percent, compared to 21 percent for families in the middle income quintile."


Here is the problem, there are the innovative go getter thinkers and there are ones happy where they are. Nothing wrong with either. Just because one group figured out how to acquire more wealth and the other didnt doesnt mean..."oh you have more than me time to give me some"

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
"Between 1979 and 2006, the inflation-adjusted after-tax income of the richest 1 percent of households increased by 256 percent, compared to 21 percent for families in the middle income quintile."


Here is the problem, there are the innovative go getter thinkers and there are ones happy where they are. Nothing wrong with either. Just because one group figured out how to acquire more wealth and the other didnt doesnt mean..."oh you have more than me time to give me some"

LOL. you keep telling yourself that.

they are the people that caused this crash Cash.
there's a big difference between the top 90% to 99% and the top 1%.

a very big difference.

it's odd to me how many of the "little people" defend this group. and trust me, i know they'd take everything you have for sport if you were big enough to get their attention and make it worth their while.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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Summary of Federal Individual Income Tax Data, 2007

top 1% AGI ($ millions)- $2,008,259

All Taxpayers ($ millions) -$8,798,500


Group's Share of Total AGI--22.83%

Income Split Point $410,096

Average Tax Rate 22.45%

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html


now if you look carefully? the top 1% paid only 22.45% in federal income taxes in 07. the bracket is much higher, but they take advantage of legal gimmicks that they lobbied congress for.

yes, they paid 40.42% of all fed income taxes, but if you look on down the chart?

the bottom 50% of wage earners made only 32,879 per year and they paid only 2.89%, but they have NO money left over to pay taxes with after that anyway, collect more from them and they won't be able to pay the rent or buy cars and that hurts the economy too....

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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