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CashCowMoo
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We all aware of what has been and is going on in Iran. Here is where I am at though. Are we going to not be vocal in our government showing support for a free Iran? Obama is sooo big on freedom. The nut job leader has called for the destruction of Israel as we all know and the regime has supplied insurgents in Iraq with weapons to attack troops. I know this because I have been on raids there where we found brand new Iranian munitions supporting shiite militias.

Wouldnt surprise me if Obama didnt want to upset any muslim leaders. We need to not leave them hanging over there like we have so many other countries in our nations history. We just use people left and right and dont stand behind them when things get hairy.


CMON Obama, what would Che do? WWCD?

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glassman
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Ok, i'll bite.

first off? this guy they are protesting in support of? he's rated a C+ by Iranian Americans versus a C- for Amadinejad. He's barely better form OUR perspective.

Second? If Obama did throw his support behind the guy? the next thing that would happen would be that about 100,000 people protesting would get "disappeared".

What would happen here if those kinds of protests happened? IMO The only reason they didn't in '00 after Bush beat Gore is that Gore didn't ask.


the US people that are supporting "uprising" over there are the same people that threw protesters in NYC during the '04 GOP convention in jail for no reason., never charged, then released. It happened. at least a thousand of 'em...

i admire the people standing up for what they beleive in, but do not mistake them for allies, and intervening is not in our interest, or theirs.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Ok, i'll bite.

first off? this guy they are protesting in support of? he's rated a C+ by Iranian Americans versus a C- for Amadinejad. He's barely better form OUR perspective.

Second? If Obama did throw his support behind the guy? the next thing that would happen would be that about 100,000 people protesting would get "disappeared".

What would happen here if those kinds of protests happened? IMO The only reason they didn't in '00 after Bush beat Gore is that Gore didn't ask.


the US people that are supporting "uprising" over there are the same people that threw protesters in NYC during the '04 GOP convention in jail for no reason., never charged, then released. It happened. at least a thousand of 'em...

i admire the people standing up for what they beleive in, but do not mistake them for allies, and intervening is not in our interest, or theirs.

Glass, this isnt about just supporting a leader. This is about a young nation sick of not being able to kiss their girlfriend in public. This is a sick society. Most people have no clue what this place is like. This is about an under 30 populous wanting change in THEIR country. True freedom.
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glassman
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yeah, i know that, but it is not clear that we CAN help them.

you ready to be drafted? cuz that's what it would really take. paying lip service does NADA.

as for other Muslim leaders? Iran is Shi-ite, they are the only major Shi-ite nation. i'm not sure the other leaders care that much.

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CashCowMoo
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Well, I wouldnt be drafted I would just be called back into the Army. Im still in the IRR (individual ready reserve) for about 3 more years.

We can provide clandestine support, but just follow through this time.

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glassman
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i bet we are already. but it wouldn't be clandestine if we admitted it now would it ? [Big Grin]

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glassman
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my take on what's happening is that the govt got caught by surprise and by cracking down will self-destruct. I admit that i really don't know what the right thing to do is.

if Obama got on stage and acted like he was supporting the protestors? the Govt wold have an "excuse" to start executing people for ttreason, it's happened before.

by not picking a side? but by saying that there is big problem? Obama has hopefully discouraged the idea of mass executions and this will play out the that Amadinejad will STILL end up as president, but the Govt will slowly but surely change because they have to. The people have spoken clearly, but it is very unlikely that they will get a new election because the elctions were farces anyway. Maybe next election will be real now?

peaceful change has been shown to be the most beneficial. it lasts.. revolutions tend to breed more revolutions.

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CashCowMoo
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Both Democrats AND Republicans are calling on Obama to not be so soft. This is a chance to change Iran from within and without military force.

The sad thing is that it looks like Obama will end up being pressured into doing something not because he really wants to see "change" but because he wants people to like him so much.

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glassman
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actually, i think it's a good thing for the Congress to say such things and the President to be reticent.

realistically speaking these protestors do not stand a chance if the govt decides to drop the boom.

Obama speaking up could be the straw that does that.

the people are trying to protest peacefully

i dunno where you get the idea he isn't for change. He represents the most change we've ever seen in the White House.

i remember our response to Tieneman square was to increase trade with China... even tho the politicians condemned it.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Envoys of President Bush traveled to Beijing shortly after
the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown with the message that the United States
wanted good relations with China but needed an end to the arrests and
killings.

Talking points for the mission, made public Tuesday, conveyed to the Chinese
that what they did with their citizens was an ``internal affair'' but how
Americans reacted to the oppression was an internal affair of the United
States.

http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl*listserv.aol.com/msg14614.html

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thinkmoney
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Life is not easy and appeasement and apathy loses...
Ultimately, in life you stand with your life for your right to live freely -
We in this country are not free but we are more free than any other country -
another topic-

USA is for freedom from its origins and cowardness should not stop USA from standing for freedom -
There always is a price but USA has been for freedom and hopefully will stand on the right side of history - it is a price to pay but when you stand for something you fight for it and not be a coward-

I am not saying send troops but USA should show support for all Iranians that want freedom then momentum happens and life changes - but for USA to be coward due to OBama and be afraid of ARmanjahead? is strikin at this country's heart --

Obama finally after pressure has give a little support - it should be instataneously because freedom is what america is- free to pursue happiness,etc..with no or little govt interference. Govt is there for defense and create environment for freedom -

Heck, lets support the Iranians for freedom and let momentum build and lets be for freedom as is/was our principle from USA origin -
We dont have to send troops but momentum changes history and support builds and folks gain freedom - but, for USA TO DO AS OBAMA wants- AFRAID TO OFFEND THE STAUS QUO - but quick to offend America -
BUT, Obama has not choice cause he knows americans are free and he is the leader and not the dictator - he will learn- a leader is a servant to the people -

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glassman
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but for USA to be coward due to OBama and be afraid of ARmanjahead? is strikin at this country's heart --
LOL..
why is he afraid? charging in like a bull in china shop will get people dead quick.
the real violence didn't even start til today.

if Obama had spoken up? then people that don;t like him would be critisizing him for telling the Iranian govt to "bring it on". [Wink]

i swear i heard that somewhere before.

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glassman
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Top cleric may be playing role in Iran unrest

By HAMZA HENDAWI – 36 minutes ago

CAIRO (AP) — One of Iran's most powerful men may be playing a key role behind closed doors in the country's escalating postelection crisis.

Former president and influential cleric Ayatollah Hashemi Rafsanjani has made no public comment since Iran erupted into confrontation between backers of hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and reformists who claim he stole re-election through fraud.

But Iranian TV has shown pictures of Rafsanjani's daughter, Faezeh Hashemi, speaking to hundreds of opposition supporters. And Rafsanjani, who has made no secret of his distaste for Ahmadinejad, was conspicuously absent from an address by the country's supreme leader calling for national unity and siding with the president.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei praised Rafsanjani, 75, on Friday as one of the revolution's architects and an effective political figure for many years, but he acknowledged that the two have "many differences of opinion."


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jqWP8PXaBUwyqRa30GRUJAsd4jcwD9 8UL81G0

there's always more than meets the eye in this stuff..


Revolutions rarely have the desired results. the USA was very lucky in ours.
In most revolutions the meanest SOB's win and take power.

Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani (Persian: علی اکبر هاشمی رفسنجانی Ali Akbar Hāshemī Rafsanjānī, Hashemi Bahramani (هاشمی بهرمانی); born February 15, 1934) is an influential Iranian politician, writer and former president. Currently he holds the position of Chairman of the Assembly of Experts[2] (a deliberative body of Mujtahids that is charged with electing, monitoring, and dismissing the Supreme Leader of Iran) and Chairman of the Expediency Discernment Council of Iran (an unelected administrative assembly that resolves legislative conflicts between the Majlis and the Council of Guardians).

Rafsanjani served as President of Iran from 1989 to 1997. In 2005 he ran for a third term in office, winning the first round of elections but ultimately losing to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in the run-off round of the 2005 election.

Rafsanjani is reportedly associated with the Iranian business class and is hostile to Ahmandinejad and the more ideological tendency in the Islamic Republic. He has been described as a pragmatic and conservative, who supports a centrist position domestically and a moderate position internationally, seeking to avoid conflict with the United States[3].


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar_Hashemi_Rafsanjani

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The Bigfoot
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There is much to be considered. That there are continued demonstrations in the street proclaiming dissatisfaction despite the legitimization of the election by the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is even more astonishing than I think a majority of Americans realize.

The only comparison I can think of that would have close to equal weight would be if the Catholics of Rome were to continue protesting even after the Pope came out and told them to stop. Near unthinkable.

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thinkmoney
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To be silent to aspiration of freedom is wrong side of history -

Support -moral -we as a country can give -

But, to be afraid due to status quo is cowardly -OH, but if we show support , more killings say the cowards - LAME---
The only analogy I can give - that is at crux to get my point across - folks in Iran are being brave and Obama is afriad cause he may offend Amanadejead - It is sad to think there are those that rather keep silent and be afriad vs showing moral support -

Being cowardly is not the way - does anyone think that Armanajead and mullahs can suppress?

Silence is what brings suppression and support leads to victory -

I support the Iranians that are fighting for freedom ---regardless of our prez -
cause I do feel most americans support freedom -
The republicans and democrats in Congress pressured Obama to give moral support - what a joke --

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jordanreed
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i dont think you quite get the joke..

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jordan

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The Bigfoot
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Money,

I'm not saying one way is correct and one way isn't but I wonder...

If the American President were to strongly and internationally denounce the Iranian election as fraud and call for Ahmadinejad to step down and make way for Mir-Hossein Mousavi, what is to stop the current Iranian regime from using that rhetoric to say that the current demonstrations are not shows of political disaffection but rather a subversive attempt by the White devil America to sow dissension and rebellion within their greatest Islamic rival and use that as an excuse to ruthlessly crush all opposition?

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thinkmoney
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I am not saying the american prez should denounce the election -
We dont know wheather rigged- what I am saying is the american prez should support freedom and denounce violence against own folks - There should be no fear in giving moral suppoirt to freedom and the Iranians that are fighting for it -
The prez should fully support freedom -
But ,I will say Obama is being more supportive now but his initial response was silence until pressured by both the dems and repubs...but he was very vocal to meet with the oppressors -

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rounder1
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I would just like to say; "I for one, and glad to see the people of a middle eastern nation taking to the streets and acting like "fairness" is important to them."

That behaviour is the only behaviour that will bring about a lasting and substantiative change.

I have to stand with "thinkmoney" on this one. The event is to rare a spark not to try and kindle. However, "what is the best way to kindle it"; that is the real question.

I should think that very open and moderately vocal support is the ticket for now.....but if the Iranian people demonstrate the courage of their convictions for a while......we should definately do more......please don't ask what.....I haven't thought that far just yet.

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glassman
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i beleive allot of Americans are mistakenly transferring their ideals onto people that do not share their ideals with them.

i admire these people for standing up for what they beleive in. but they aren't looking for an American lifestyle at all. supporting them is not going to give them what we have, they aren't even asking for it. listen to what they are asking for next chance you get.

i beleive you could show your support by sporting green...
put something green on your car. like a towel flapping

and remember this as you cheer THEM on:

Republican Convention Arrest Total: Over 800

RYAN J. FOLEY and MARTIGA LOHN | September 5, 2008 10:49 AM EST

ST. PAUL, Minn. — Percussion grenades, tear gas and nearly 400 arrests marked the final anti-war march during the Republican National Convention. More than 800 arrests were reported during a week of sometimes peaceful, sometimes violent dissent.

Anti-war protesters rallied Thursday at the state Capitol and then planned to march to Xcel Energy Center, where Sen. John McCain was due to accept the GOP presidential nomination.
But their permit had expired,
and police _ in riot gear
and using horses,
snow plows and dump trucks _ blocked their way.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/05/republican-convention-arr_n_124208.html


and this:

Videos expose false arrests at 2004 Republican Convention protests in New York
By Peter Daniels
19 April 2005

Seven months after the mass arrests of over 1,800 protesters at the Republican Convention in New York City last summer, 91 percent of the nearly 1,700 cases that have been concluded have resulted in acquittals or the dismissal of charges. Four hundred cases were dismissed after video recordings made by volunteer observers and others showed that there was no reason for the arrests, the New York Times reported last week. Some of the videos also exposed false testimony by the police


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Republican_National_Convention_protest_activit y


a little bit ironic ain't it?
the Islamic Revolution started just like this too. that was whe the Shah was deposed.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
This is about a young nation sick of not being able to kiss their girlfriend in public.

The Middle East culture do not show public affection to each other in terms of males and females. Whether it's westernized or not.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i beleive allot of Americans are mistakenly transferring their ideals onto people that do not share their ideals with them.

i admire these people for standing up for what they beleive in. but they aren't looking for an American lifestyle at all. supporting them is not going to give them what we have, they aren't even asking for it. listen to what they are asking for next chance you get.


Exactly. Though I have a young co worker who is from Iran and immigrated here with her family about 10 years ago. I haven't asked her opinion about the situation but perhaps I will next time.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i bet we are already. but it wouldn't be clandestine if we admitted it now would it ? [Big Grin]

I always believed clandestine operations are more suitable then what we did in Iraq. Like during the Cold War.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
This is about a young nation sick of not being able to kiss their girlfriend in public.

The Middle East culture do not show public affection to each other in terms of males and females. Whether it's westernized or not.
No they dont, and its because of the same thing you are so critical of "the conservative right" in America. However, in Baghdad around the university when I was in the area we saw young couples holding hands in public. Only in a few certain areas though close to the chai shops.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
No they dont, and its because of the same thing you are so critical of "the conservative right" in America.

Not really. It's 2 different worlds and we can't force anyone to adopt our way of life. Some asian countries are the same way about public affection. Has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It's just how their world is for thousands of years.

Plus to me public affection is a non issue and if you really wanted to change them you would focus more on such things like honor killings which is more of a issue.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
No they dont, and its because of the same thing you are so critical of "the conservative right" in America.

Not really. It's 2 different worlds and we can't force anyone to adopt our way of life. Some asian countries are the same way about public affection. Has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It's just how their world is for thousands of years.

Plus to me public affection is a non issue and if you really wanted to change them you would focus more on such things like honor killings which is more of a issue.

All I know is Obama is going to get more involved this week once the pressure for him to speak more on it doesnt stop.

Im not saying we need to take any forceful action just start talking smack on Iran. Iran has been doing it to us. He needs to start being vocal about their leader. This isnt some sane minded compassionate guy. Bush was talking about this back in the day and everyone bashed him over it. Now we have an uprising from within and its the perfect opportunity to show encouragement.

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raybond
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I really don't have A lot to say now. the only thing is I listen to you guys and put two and two together and say to myself it is none of our business what thoes people do.

We can make it our business if we want to we can even go to war over the Iranian election just like it was our own election if we want to.

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rounder1
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
I really don't have A lot to say now. the only thing is I listen to you guys and put two and two together and say to myself it is none of our business what thoes people do.

We can make it our business if we want to we can even go to war over the Iranian election just like it was our own election if we want to.

First let me say that I do not promote any particular course of action; since I am not sure what the next step should be.

...and I will concede that perhaps the U.S. should sit on the sidelines for now.....but; the people are mobilizing in a country that (to my knowledge) has not experienced anything like this in a very long time.

The U.S. has a very important stake not only in the country itself but also in the region. I do not contend that our actions should be motivated by some effort to capitalize....rather we should recognize that the leader of a country that has been openly hostile to the U.S. is under some serious fire from within his own country.....and do not forget......we could could absolutely destroy Iran; but we would wait for them to throw the first punch.....I have been in several fights and usually waited for the agression. I will tell you from first hand knowledge.....it is usually a doozey.

Passive (for now), I can understand and support; but idle is foolish.....history does not provide such opportunities very often.

I think that it is very much our business; but we should afford the people of Iran the opportunity to draw their line in the sand first....show the rest of the world that they are serious about defending that line.....and then...and only then; the U.S. should openly recognize and begin to support the will of the people of Iran.

To say that it is not our business is "ostrich behaviour."

At Yorktown, French soldiers outnumbered colonists 3 to 1. Without the recognition of the U.S. by France.....it is very likely that we would still be under English rule.

But France waited until they new that a colonial victory could happen before they threw their hat into the ring.

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raybond
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The major difference is france and britian were already at war.

And it sure sounds like you are promoting a lot at this time join up lead the charge.

The best thing we could ever do in this country is have a special election held as to figure out if we want to go to war or not if we decide to go to war then everybody goes no deferments no nothing no excuses you go.

I have never been an ostrich in my life idiot and do not infer that I am I think I am seeing the world very well. No matter what our stake is in the world and I sure don't have a stake in that area of the world and niether does 98% of America American Capital has a stake in that part of the world.

So if Obama keeps us out of Iran and no troop committment All the better and if American capital looses ther investment they can whine about it till hell freezes over the way I feel about it. And once more it really is none of our business. Lets keep our own elections fair

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
raybond
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ps when I learn more about what is going on I will have a real opinion about the area and what I would like to see done

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by rounder1:

I do not contend that our actions should be motivated by some effort to capitalize....

But it is. Our actions always have capitalism in mind not democracy. Do not confuse Democracy with Capitalism. Our motivations are always $$ first and everything else 2nd even if we do not like to admit it.

As for the French helping us vs Britain, we asked for their help and Iranians are not asking for ours that is the difference. It is none of our business. Iranians need to take care of their own problems as do we.

Bush smeared our reputation with the Iraq issue and if we do the same with Iran we will have a double black eye.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:

So if Obama keeps us out of Iran and no troop committment All the better and if American capital looses ther investment they can whine about it till hell freezes over the way I feel about it. And once more it really is none of our business. Lets keep our own elections fair

I agree with this...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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CashCowMoo
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dont you just love watching how upset Obama gets when people call him a wimp over this situation and on north korea?

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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rounder1
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The "stake" that I spoke of has nothing to do with money.....as for "ostrich behaviour" if the shoe fits then ......?

People can choose to acknowlede it or not; but, there is obviously some serious social discontent within a country that is openly hostilie against America.

Read my earlier posts.....passive for now, and if the Iranian people hold true. SUPPORT and all that entails.

With regards to the "American Colonies" asking for help.....you are correct, Mach. However, you fail to recognize the difference. between a foreign colony (utilizing a majority opinion and based on that; colllectively signing a "Declaration of Independence") and a locally supressed people.

I doubt that any of the people throwing rocks in the streets have Obama on speed dial.....or any member of the congress for that matter.

Seriously "Ray", I was not trying to call you an Ostritch. I am simply just as dismissive about doing nothing in this case as you are about action. As for the apparent challenge to let those that would choose intervene be the first......that scares the hell out of me.....but does not change anything that I believe.....I would be scared as hell and twice as honored.

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"The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." (WC)

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