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Author Topic: Wind Energy
Sunnyside
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Is anyone investing in wind energy companies?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165441.htm

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glassman
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so far? the plays are in materials. corning and GE etc.

there aren't any public trading wind power co's worth anything YET...

AWNE (OB)is down bad this year

MKBY (OB) has has had some moves, but it's at 4 cents...

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Sunnyside
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I'm trying to find true wind energy stocks that are publicly traded. I guess the "not worth anything yet" is the trick. Like investing in the internet when it wasn't worth anything yet.

I've found a few but they're foreign and the others are only subsidiaries of larger energy companies or, as you mentioned, privately held companies.

It just seems so interesting and the possibilities.

Thanks Glass.

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunnyside:
I'm trying to find true wind energy stocks that are publicly traded. I guess the "not worth anything yet" is the trick. Like investing in the internet when it wasn't worth anything yet.

I've found a few but they're foreign and the others are only subsidiaries of larger energy companies or, as you mentioned, privately held companies.

It just seems so interesting and the possibilities.

Thanks Glass.

Keep an eye on T Boone Pickens. He has become a big wind energy supporter and you know eventually he will IPO whatever entity he has pushing it.

I actually saw a commercial the other night, paid for by T Boone Pickens, preaching the virtues of wind energy. So he is throwing his money into it. Just keep an eye on what he is doing IMO.

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Sunnyside
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I have been watching.

Pickens' Mesa Power orders GE wind turbines
$2 Billion Wind Turbine Order Is Largest Ever
T. Boone Pickens orders 667 GE wind turbines:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Oil investor T. Boone Pickens' Mesa Power LLP said on Thursday it ordered 667 wind turbines from General Electric Co as part of the $2 billion first phase of a planned Texas wind farm.

It said the turbine order was the world's largest for a single-site wind power development.

The 667 turbines are capable of generating 1,000 megawatts of electricity, enough to power more than 300,000 average U.S. homes, Mesa said in a release.

The four-phase Pampa Wind Project would be the world's largest wind energy generator, with more than 4,000 megawatts of electricity, enough for 1.3 million homes, when completed in 2014, Mesa said.

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunnyside:
I have been watching.

Pickens' Mesa Power orders GE wind turbines
$2 Billion Wind Turbine Order Is Largest Ever
T. Boone Pickens orders 667 GE wind turbines:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Oil investor T. Boone Pickens' Mesa Power LLP said on Thursday it ordered 667 wind turbines from General Electric Co as part of the $2 billion first phase of a planned Texas wind farm.

It said the turbine order was the world's largest for a single-site wind power development.

The 667 turbines are capable of generating 1,000 megawatts of electricity, enough to power more than 300,000 average U.S. homes, Mesa said in a release.

The four-phase Pampa Wind Project would be the world's largest wind energy generator, with more than 4,000 megawatts of electricity, enough for 1.3 million homes, when completed in 2014, Mesa said.

I'm right there with you Sunny. When someone of his stature and money starts throwing out billions, I keep a keen on on their manuevers [Wink]

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SeekingFreedom
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I've had a question about all this excitement about the up and coming wind 'sector' that maybe somebody can clear up for me:

Why is everyone so excited about it?

Best case scenario it will reduce the overall dependence on fossil fuel energy production but it can never replace it.

It has two major flaws: one, it can't be 'ramped up.' With most grids you have to vary the amount of power coming out based on daily usage times. Sometimes you need more, sometimes less. You can't do that with wind driven grids, what mother nature chooses to give you is what you get. I guess you could 'ramp down' in essense by disconnecting some of the turbines, but you could never produce more than your nominal potential when all are online. Second flaw is obvious...you're at the mercy of nature. If it don't blow, you don't go.

As a supplement to the existing supply it's a good idea. I just don't think we should be hoping it's the silver bullet we're all looking for.

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The Bigfoot
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ESLR it isn't wind but if you are thinking alternative energies this would be a good one to keep on a watchlist.

As to wind itself...I don't know how exhaustive this list is but...

http://energy.sourceguides.com/businesses/byP/wRP/byB/public/public.shtml

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Relentless.
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
I've had a question about all this excitement about the up and coming wind 'sector' that maybe somebody can clear up for me:

Why is everyone so excited about it?

Best case scenario it will reduce the overall dependence on fossil fuel energy production but it can never replace it.

It has two major flaws: one, it can't be 'ramped up.' With most grids you have to vary the amount of power coming out based on daily usage times. Sometimes you need more, sometimes less. You can't do that with wind driven grids, what mother nature chooses to give you is what you get. I guess you could 'ramp down' in essense by disconnecting some of the turbines, but you could never produce more than your nominal potential when all are online. Second flaw is obvious...you're at the mercy of nature. If it don't blow, you don't go.

As a supplement to the existing supply it's a good idea. I just don't think we should be hoping it's the silver bullet we're all looking for.

That guy on Rush's show was pretty bright.
Had quite a few very good points, and was very effective in proving wind power was a pointless en devour.

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glassman
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amazing how rush finds so many "geniuses" huh?

i guess T Boone is just an idiot... LOL...

the wind always blows in some places... i spent three years living in NE. they had a couple of trial mills there and i did see them stop moving once...

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glassman
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the ones near Hesperia CA? in the high desert? they never stopped. they were on the ridges of a huge box canyon.... a twenty mile wide one....

they are even putting more in out there cuz the other ones have been so successful:

Southern California Edison announced today that it was breaking ground on a desert wind farm that could provide power for upwards of 3 million homes by 2013, predicting that it will be the largest wind transmission project in the country.

Officials estimate that the Tehachapi Renewal Project will eventually provide 4,500 megawatts of electricity. The project will harness the wind that blows through the Tehachapi Mountains about 100 miles north of Los Angeles.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/socal-edison-building-largest-usa-wind-f arm.php

i guess these people investing in them are just idiots [Wink]

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SeekingFreedom
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That guy on Rush's show was pretty bright.
Had quite a few very good points, and was very effective in proving wind power was a pointless en devour.


He was just one of the most recent voices, Relentless. The reasons he mentioned are some of the draw backs to the wind alternative that have been offered against it for years. One of the things he didn't mention (because it should be obvious) is that they are very location limited. Not every state has a neat little wind tunnel that will support a massive wind farm. Solar would be a slightly better alternative because you get sunlight everywhere, but you still have at least 8 hours a day that it isn't producing. Either way, they may help...but they ain't gonna fix the problem alone.

i guess these people investing in them are just idiots

No, they're either short sighted (not likely if they're self made billionaires like T Boone) or they understand that this isn't the fix and have ulterior motives to jumping on the band wagon.

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glassman
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but they ain't gonna fix the problem alone.

hmmmm... you think that we should be able to have one single fix?

i think that's the unrealistic expectation.

we already know that there's no single fix.

i'm not even sure what your real point is here except that once again you are taking the rush limbugger poison pill.

it amazes me how wrong that guy is all the time, but all he has to say is "i toldja so" and 4 million hollow heads bob up and down while they recite the mantra "talent on loan from God"

the fact is that we'll always have serious power management issues when it comes to maintaining capability to scale the power to actual demand...
there wasn't anything that any other power supply system doesn't face in there...

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SeekingFreedom
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hmmmm... you think that we should be able to have one single fix?

No, but I wish they would promote wind power as one fix and not THE fix.

i'm not even sure what your real point is here except that once again you are taking the rush limbugger poison pill

And I find it amusing that simply because Rush says something, an equal number of heads start shaking and saying it can't be true because he said it.

Noone can get it right OR wrong all the time, Glass.

As for the information I mentioned, all of it is true. The 'ramping up or scaling back' IS possible with other systems and they aren't limited by nature's whim or time of day. A combination approach will help us reduce demand on fossil fuels but the current push for it seems to promise that is will eliminate it. And that simply isn't possible.

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glassman
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No, but I wish they would promote wind power as one fix and not THE fix.

only a rush bobble head would even think that anybody is promoting it as THE fix. where are you getting this from besides his psychobabble broadcasts?

this is why rush is so toxic. he's leading a bunch of people around by the nose and convincing them he's the "font of truth"

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
hmmmm... you think that we should be able to have one single fix?

No, but I wish they would promote wind power as one fix and not THE fix.

i'm not even sure what your real point is here except that once again you are taking the rush limbugger poison pill

And I find it amusing that simply because Rush says something, an equal number of heads start shaking and saying it can't be true because he said it.

Noone can get it right OR wrong all the time, Glass.

As for the information I mentioned, all of it is true. The 'ramping up or scaling back' IS possible with other systems and they aren't limited by nature's whim or time of day. A combination approach will help us reduce demand on fossil fuels but the current push for it seems to promise that is will eliminate it. And that simply isn't possible.

Wind power was never said to be the single "fix" for the energy problem. Maybe you got that bit of drivel from Rushie. It is designed to be part of an amalgam of alternatives that will cure our energy ills. Among them, wind, hydro, geothermal, solar, bio-fuels, nuclear, etc. No single one is the "fix" as you say, but used in concert, they can be.

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glassman
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here's something that is realistic:

Studies from around the world show that the Great Plains states are home to the greatest wind energy potential in the world — by far.

The Department of Energy reports that 20% of America's electricity can come from wind. North Dakota alone has the potential to provide power for more than a quarter of the country.

Today's wind turbines stand up to 410 feet tall, with blades that stretch 148 feet in length. The blades collect the wind's kinetic energy. In one year, a 3-megawatt wind turbine produces as much energy as 12,000 barrels of imported oil.

Wind power currently accounts for 48 billion kWh of electricity a year in the United States — enough to serve more than 4.5 million households. That is still only about 1% of current demand, but the potential of wind is much greater.

A 2005 Stanford University study found that there is enough wind power worldwide to satisfy global demand 7 times over — even if only 20% of wind power could be captured.


http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan/

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The Bigfoot
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Besides...currently wind is the alternative that stands closest to coal in costs per KW. It can be used just about anywhere there are high power transmittion lines. It has worked wonderfully for farmers and ranchers as a way to earn more income without effecting the land or lifestyle negatively. It is already credited with saving three dying rural communites up were I am.

And that's with it tethered to the ground.

U of M is making some good strides right now in instant energy transmition. Don't get me wrong it is still decades away, but all the ol deep ore mine in Northern MN are perfect to this kind of study. Say they figure it out. Then wind turbines wouldn't be tethered to the ground and could follow the jet stream round and round the globe. How much wind could we harvest then?

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bksundar
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OTTR is a good company in Wind energy.

Bills Gates Cascade investments is heavily into it.

Just google it..

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bdgee
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:

Best case scenario it will reduce the overall dependence on fossil fuel energy production but it can never replace it.

Who says so?

And on what basis?

Specious at best.

Maybe you need to get some better sources of information (or actually a source of information instead of just an agenda).

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a surfer
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quote:
Originally posted by bksundar:
OTTR is a good company in Wind energy.

Bills Gates Cascade investments is heavily into it.

Just google it..

http://stockcharts.com/charts/gallery.html?ottr

impressive

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Who says so?

And on what basis?

Specious at best.

Maybe you need to get some better sources of information (or actually a source of information instead of just an agenda).

Greeting, Bdgee, how's it going? Heard alot of mention of your name but I won't hold that against you. [Razz]

Anyway, why is it that everyone thinks that I'm pulling this out of my back pocket...or there abouts. lol

Report blows hole in wind power plan
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/06/29/eawind129.xml


New wind turbine report lacks data, critics say
http://www.windaction.org/news/15522


The items I listed above and as Relentless mentioned were echoed by the Rush caller aren't new. They have been part of the reason why it hasn't been seriously persued until now. I'm not saying that these are insurmountable, but they do need to be addressed.

Oh, and we need you to explain something over in the "curious" thread. [Razz]

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Sunnyside
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I'm having a difficult time understanding the argument against wind power. It's already working.

While it may not be the one and only answer to the energy crisis, it surely appears to be at least a part of the answer.

Geez you guys, maybe we should all just sit around with our thumbs up our butts and disparage any alternative that doesn't seem to meet all the needs of an alternative energy source.

What about solar energy? Doesn't solve all the problems either. Should we just ditch that alternative too?

"It hasn't been seriously pursued"? Are you kidding? Maybe you should do some more research.

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glassman
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those two articles are weak SF...
one is about England, the other about sound pollution. they do make noise, but so does wind...

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
they do make noise, but so does wind...

Hmmm....I can think of several posters on this board that resemble that remark glassman! [Eek!]

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SeekingFreedom
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Ok, one last ditch effort to make my point and then I'm letting this one pass...

Can anyone show me where I said 'Don't persue Wind?'

Anyone?

Anyone at all?

From the begining of this thread I have never said we shouldn't persue it. All I have said from the begining is that the apparent excitement about it seems to me to be a little beyond what the reality is going to produce.

As for my articles that Glass disparages, they are completely valid. The England link shows many of the same issues that are going to have to be addressed over here. And they will be magnified in that our energy supply needs are so far beyond theirs. The second link talks about the effect that these 'clean' sources will have on the adjacent lands. That's something that needs to be addressed in the planning phase and not as an afterthought once $2 billion is invested. Maybe T Boone already has an answer. I didn't read one in his plan but then again I'm sure alot of things aren't mentioned in a one page preview.

I really don't mind being criticized for what I say that others disagree with, but come on. At least stick to what I say and not what you think I mean.

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Sunnyside
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My apologies if I misread your intentions.

For me it seems like an exciting option that already exists and produces, etc.

I've just read something about combined solarwind technology.

http://windystocks.com/energy/2008/06/innovative-wind-and-solar-startup-bluenerg y/

Totally don't understand it but...

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Relentless.
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
Ok, one last ditch effort to make my point and then I'm letting this one pass...

Can anyone show me where I said 'Don't persue Wind?'

Anyone?

Anyone at all?

From the begining of this thread I have never said we shouldn't persue it. All I have said from the begining is that the apparent excitement about it seems to me to be a little beyond what the reality is going to produce.

As for my articles that Glass disparages, they are completely valid. The England link shows many of the same issues that are going to have to be addressed over here. And they will be magnified in that our energy supply needs are so far beyond theirs. The second link talks about the effect that these 'clean' sources will have on the adjacent lands. That's something that needs to be addressed in the planning phase and not as an afterthought once $2 billion is invested. Maybe T Boone already has an answer. I didn't read one in his plan but then again I'm sure alot of things aren't mentioned in a one page preview.

I really don't mind being criticized for what I say that others disagree with, but come on. At least stick to what I say and not what you think I mean.

Sooo...
You're saying we should not pursue wind power in any shape or form.
Gotcha
You're gonna take some heat for that kinda position around here...

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The Bigfoot
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It's not THE answer. You are right on that SF. At least...not the answer with the grid we are on. But even cutting 20% reliance on coal or oil is a big deal in my book.

Pair it up with something like hydrogen as well as a non-existent (as of yet) battery tech and perhaps we wouldn't need that grid at all.

That would be awesome. Something like 6-7% of all the energy we produce is lost during transmission.

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bdgee
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
[QUOTE]
Anyway, why is it that everyone thinks that I'm pulling this out of my back pocket...or there abouts. lol

I don't see anyone suggesting that you pull stuff out of your back pocket. The certainly do suggest you pluck it out of some place close thereto, though....and with good reason....because you do. It too often carries the odor of it sources.

Take a hint: Fat Rush the Doper is NOT a reliable source of information. Neither is any denizen of Fox news or anything that can be traced to other known repeated distorter's of fact.

Win energy works and, relying on studies I conducted back in the 80s in a government financed study, on the availability of wind energy to commercially produce electricity through this country, there is no location in the country that has so little that if is infeasible or too expensive (via the equipment and state of the art as of 1980). (In that same study, the prospects for solar power were even greater.) Note carefully that that study was done well before the much more efficient equipment of today was even off the drawing boards.

Petroleum, as the primary source of most of the raw materials the modern world relies on, is far too valuable to be burned up to propel transportation or heat and cool our buildings (and for personal convenient disposable containers for water). The same can be said for coal. Dependence on that sort of 17th and 18th century infrastructure and mindset must be abandoned.

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glassman
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As for my articles that Glass disparages, they are completely valid.

"completely valid"? WTF does that mean?

my drivers license is completely valid...

I really don't mind being criticized for what I say that others disagree with, but come on. At least stick to what I say and not what you think I mean.

don't take it personal... it was posted, but not by you....

4 million rush bobble heads nodding up and down repeating the mantra "talent on loan from God" was only directed at the bobble heads... i'm surprised that any of 'em would even have the self-awreness required to know i'm making fun of 'em...

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glassman
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Petroleum, as the primary source of most of the raw materials the modern world relies on, is far too valuable to be burned up to propel transportation or heat and cool our buildings (and for personal convenient disposable containers for water).

wow, budgee, that's just too subtle for most consumers..

100 million years in th ground? 300 years thru our tailpipes... i guess pigs do have wings after all...

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SeekingFreedom
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"completely valid"? WTF does that mean?

my drivers license is completely valid...


LOL, that a little excessively nitpicky even for you, Glass. [Smile]

Let me rephrase then...

As for my articles that Glass disparages, the concerns mentioned are completely valid.

Better?


Take a hint: Fat Rush the Doper is NOT a reliable source of information. Neither is any denizen of Fox news or anything that can be traced to other known repeated distorter's of fact.

LOL, ok, Bdgee, could you make me a list of known repeated distorter's of fact so I can avoid misinformation purveyors?

Win energy works and, relying on studies I conducted back in the 80s in a government financed study, on the availability of wind energy to commercially produce electricity through this country, there is no location in the country that has so little that if is infeasible or too expensive (via the equipment and state of the art as of 1980). (In that same study, the prospects for solar power were even greater.) Note carefully that that study was done well before the much more efficient equipment of today was even off the drawing boards.

Since I assume you used methodology more complex than driving accross the country with your arm extended holding a pinwheel...can you explain to me why these were never pursued? I mean, you proved they were commercially viable, right? Why was there no major capitalization on it in 20 years?


Petroleum, as the primary source of most of the raw materials the modern world relies on, is far too valuable to be burned up to propel transportation or heat and cool our buildings (and for personal convenient disposable containers for water).

wow, budgee, that's just too subtle for most consumers..


I prefer cans anyway. [Smile] And yes, I do recycle.

Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
glassman
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explain to me why these were never pursued?

i can...

first off? you notice how i jump up and down and hold my breath over NS'ing? well, that's because the main targets are small caps. the "new kids on the blcok" are most vulnerable...
they are easy to "kill"; now? who wants to kill small startups? their larger competitors and the investors thereof do, that's who...

the people heavily invested (the powers that be) protect their investment and teach anybody "dumb enough" to bet on a new idea who's boss....

most good ideas come up thru the private market investment programs until they are strong enough to swim with the sharks, or they fail...

the other reason is that the startups don't have lobbyists with enough power to overcome the influence on the other side...

what was it yo said? you want to prove that you or anybody else can still make it in America? you can, but you can't bring a knife to a gun fight.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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The Bigfoot
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quote:
can you explain to me why these were never pursued?
Because of the inertia that is humanity.

To give another example...My hometown has just gotten approval to build the second lightrail transportation line to connect the downtown areas of St. Paul and Minneapolis.

Why is this a valid example?

My father-in-law work in committee on this project back when he worked for the DOT.

That was 30 years ago.

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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