posted
Bell's fiancee: 'They killed Sean all over again'
NEW YORK (CNN) -- A day after three New York police detectives were acquitted on all counts in the case of Sean Bell -- an unarmed man killed in a hail of 50 police gunshots -- his fiancee told supporters that the justice system let her down.
"On April 25, 2008, they killed Sean all over again," Nicole Paultre Bell told supporters at a rally organized by the Rev. Al Sharpton.
"That's what it felt like to us. That's what it felt like to us," she said Saturday. "Yesterday, they -- the justice system -- let me down. I gave them the benefit of the doubt," she said. "I'm still praying for justice because it's not over. It's far from over."
Bell spoke after Sharpton criticized the judge who acquitted the three officers, saying the case should have been heard by a jury.
"If people are on the public payroll, doing their public duty, they should be required to face a public jury," Sharpton said at the National Action Network headquarters.
The officers chose to have a judge instead of a jury.
Sharpton said the victims were unfairly portrayed as dishonest.
"These three families have had to endure and have had to abide through the most, in my judgment, scandalous denigration of victims that I've seen in my lifetime," he said.
On Friday, Justice Arthur Cooperman cleared Detectives Michael Oliver and Gescard Isnora of manslaughter, assault and reckless endangerment in the death of Sean Bell. VideoWatch the commotion outside the courthouse »
Detective Marc Cooper was cleared of reckless endangerment.
Bell, 23, died in November 2006 in a 50-bullet barrage -- 31 fired by Oliver -- hours before he was to be married. Two of his companions were wounded in the gunfire outside a Queens nightclub.
Alexander Jason, an expert witness for the defense, produced a video demonstrating how quickly Oliver could have fired off 31 rounds, including a pause to reload. iReport.com: Watch the video
The three officers made brief statements more than four hours after the verdict.
"I want to say sorry to Bell family for the tragedy," Cooper said.
Isnora thanked the judge "for his fair and accurate decision today."
Oliver praised Cooperman "for a fair and just decision."
Patrick Lynch, president of the New York Police Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said "there's no winners; there's no losers" in the case.
"We still have a death that occurred. We still have police officers that have to live with the fact that there was a death involved in their case," Lynch said.
But, he added, the verdict assured police officers that they will be treated fairly in New York's courts.
In announcing the verdict, Cooperman said he found problems with the prosecution's case. He said some prosecution witnesses contradicted themselves, and he cited prior convictions and incarcerations of witnesses.
"At times, the testimony just didn't make sense," Cooperman said, according to a transcript released by his office.
He also cited the demeanor of some witnesses on the stand.
Bell was killed just before dawn on his wedding day, November 25, 2006. He and several friends were winding up an all-night bachelor party at the Kalua Club in Queens, a strip club that was under investigation by a NYPD undercover unit looking into complaints of guns, drugs and prostitution.
Undercover detectives were inside the club, and plainclothes officers were stationed outside.
Witnesses said that about 4 a.m., closing time, as Bell and his friends left the club, an argument broke out. Believing that one of Bell's friends, Joseph Guzman, was going to get a gun from Bell's car, one of the undercover detectives followed the men and called for backup.
What happened next was at the heart of the trial, prosecuted by the assistant district attorney in Queens.
Bell, Guzman and Trent Benefield got into the car, with Bell at the wheel. The detectives drew their weapons, said Guzman and Benefield, who testified that they never heard the plainclothes detectives identify themselves as police.
Bell was in a panic to get away from the armed men, his friends testified.
But the detectives thought Bell was trying to run down one of them, believed that their lives were in danger and started shooting, according to their lawyers.
A total of 50 bullets were fired by five NYPD officers. Only three were charged with crimes.
No gun was found near Bell or his friends.
Paultre Bell, Guzman and Benefield have filed a wrongful-death lawsuit in federal court that has been stayed pending the outcome of the criminal trial.
Federal prosecutors will conduct a review to determine whether there were any civil rights violations, Brown said.
Soon after Bell's death, his fiancee changed her name to Nicole Paultre Bell. She is now raising the couple's two daughters, ages 5 and 1.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Something really has to be done about our government. Currently they have more rights than the people do. I do not have the ability to shoot an unarmed man, whether I believe myself to be at risk or not. I would be jailed if not executed for shooting an unarmed man.
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But rather than call the shooting justified, the judge said the prosecution failed to prove it was unjustified, as was its burden. "Questions of carelessness and incompetence must be left to other forums," he said.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
All a bunch of bs. They shot to death an unarmed man. They did not identify themselves as police officers. It's not the fact that it happened that irks me. It's the fact that they got away with it. Meaning there is now precedent on the books.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Nah nothing will happen to them because it's the precedent they want. This is the exact kind of policework they want. They want to be able to shoot anyone without worrying about lawsuits or being jailed themselves.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:But the detectives thought Bell was trying to run down one of them, believed that their lives were in danger and started shooting, according to their lawyers.
All that is required for the police to be justified in shooting was for them to reasonable believe that their lives were in danger. Having a suspect attempt to run them down with a vehicle certainly qualifies.
I'd like to know exactly what criminal history these guys had.
quote:"If people are on the public payroll, doing their public duty, they should be required to face a public jury," Sharpton said at the National Action Network headquarters.
Ridiculous! That is NOT our judicial system in the U.S.
quote:I do not have the ability to shoot an unarmed man, whether I believe myself to be at risk or not. I would be jailed if not executed for shooting an unarmed man.
That is factually incorrect and you clearly do not understand the law. You do NOT have to see a gun to be justified in shooting someone. For example, let's say that someone walked up to you on the street and said "I have a gun, give me your money". If you felt that your life was in danger, you would be 100% justified in shooting them. Another example is someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night (in the dark). You certainly don't have to turn on the lights and identify a gun to be justified in shooting them. If you feel that you are in danger, you are 100% justified in shooting them.
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
i beleive the defendants have the right to choose Jury or judge.
You do NOT have to see a gun to be justified in shooting someone.
theoretically someone could just shoot you and say you threatened them. it would be even worse if they found a concealed weapon on you.
reality is much messier than theory.
as for in the home? yes, as long as someone is in the home, but people have been successfully prosecuted for leaving booby-traps that were triggered while no-one was home...
there were several versions of the story presented to the judge.
the judge says he discounted some because he felt the witnesses might have reason to lie. as if no-one else did?
they reloaded... they'll lose the civil case.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:he felt the witnesses might have reason to lie.
It sounds like they were criminals. What were their criminal histories? Well, let's see: 1 of the guys with Bell spent 5 years in prison for robbery and had been convicted of being a crack dealer. That would certainly question the witnesses credibility!
quote:reality is much messier than theory.
Yes, I agree. It appears that the reality here is that at least some of those involved had a criminal history and the guy tried to run down a cop. I'd call that messy.
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:he felt the witnesses might have reason to lie.
It sounds like they were criminals. What were their criminal histories? Well, let's see: 1 of the guys with Bell spent 5 years in prison for robbery and had been convicted of being a crack dealer. That would certainly question the witnesses credibility!
quote:reality is much messier than theory.
Yes, I agree. It appears that the reality here is that at least some of those involved had a criminal history and the guy tried to run down a cop. I'd call that messy.
posted
forget all the he said she-said stuff- we'll never know how "properly" the cops IDed themselves.
the real question you should be asking yourself is if some person unknown to you pulls a gun and points it at you? what are you going to do? they have a shield? is it real?
put yourself out there: they are plainclothes detectives. you've done nothing wrong and they are pointing guns at you...
plainclothes cops do not enjoy the same recognition factor that uniformed cops do....
personally? i would be leaving the scene ASAP.
as for their past criminal records? they were juvy records unsealed by the police after the fact. so the police doing the shooting didn't know who they were shooting at....
According to Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly, veteran officer Michael Oliver emptied two full magazines, firing 31 shots from a 9mm handgun and pausing to reload at least once.[11] Some shots hit nearby homes and a train station. Five of the seven officers investigating the club were involved in the shooting. Detective Paul Headley fired one round, Officer Michael Carey fired three, Officer Marc Cooper fired four, Officer Gescard Isnora fired eleven, and Officer Michael Oliver fired thirty one times. [23][24][25]
An autopsy showed Bell was struck four times in the neck and torso. [26] Guzman, 31, was shot 19 times[27] and Benefield, 23, who was in the back seat, was hit three times. Both men were taken to Mary Immaculate Hospital; at the time of admission Guzman was listed in critical condition and Benefield was in stable condition. Guzman and Benefield would ultimately survive the shooting.[11] Benefield was released from the hospital on 5 December 2006,[28] while Guzman was released on 25 January 2007.[29] Surveillance cameras at the Port Authority's Jamaica AirTrain station a half block away from the shooting site recorded one of the bullets fired by the officers shattering through the station's glass window and narrowly missing a civilian and two Port Authority patrolmen who were standing on the station's elevated platform.[19][30]
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
The cops pulled guns with out identifying themselves. Is that really the country you want to live in? I'm sure it is because it isn't you... It's them... and they have been judged to be criminals... Criminals because it suits your position as New World Order spokesman. Lets just agree that we wish to live in different worlds. You wish to scamper about your government provided security module. Living life happily looking out the window only during government mandated observing hour between 3:00 and 4:00PM every third Wednesday. You'll laugh giddily at the mere thought of the criminals who try to look out the window more often. You'll spend the rest of your government mandated freedom time reading the pledge of allegiance, over and over and over. While I wish to live in a world where evil men do not hold control of free men. I wish to go where I want, when I want without permission from demented evil men. I wish to live in a world where government knows it's limitations, and so do the citizens. I wish to live in a world where the people are never referred to as civilians. I wish to live in a world where the government is barred from owning guns... NOT the people.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:The cops pulled guns with out identifying themselves.
Who said that? The criminals?
quote:While I wish to live in a world where evil men do not hold control of free men.
That's where I live, how about you?
quote:I wish to go where I want, when I want without permission from demented evil men.
I go where I want, when I want without asking anyone!
quote:I wish to live in a world where the government is barred from owning guns
I don't! We pay the police to get the criminals off the streets and I don't think they would be very effective if they were outgunned by the criminals.
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
quote:The cops pulled guns with out identifying themselves.
Who said that? The criminals?
plain clothes detectives. it doesn't matter. you ignored my questions..
what the plain clothes cops did is not really in question since there were no weapons on the guys they shot.
the only question is why the cops stopped them or tried to. and how they did it. you say the "perps" tried to run down cops, but that is not in evidence.
posted
New York City Settles Over Diallo Police Shooting
by Allison Keyes
Listen Now: [3 min 58 sec] Real Media|Windows MediaExplain these links
The Tavis Smiley Show, January 7, 2004 · New York City will pay $3 million to the family of Amadou Diallo, an unarmed West African immigrant killed in a hail of police gunfire in 1999. Allison Keyes reports.
The professor says the sheer number of bullets matters, in this case and in past ones, like the police killing of Amadou Diallo in New York in 1999. The unarmed Diallo died in his apartment doorway after officers fired 41 bullets at him. "It takes place in residential locations where other people are put at risk by the police behavior," Jones-Brown says.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
no criminals were involved in this shooting...two of his friends(not criminals) in the car said the people pointing guns at them never said they were cops. Bell was trying to leave the scene because these men were pointing guns at them{3 unarmed individuals). Id want to get the hell out of there too!..wouldnt you?.. imo, the cops are trying to justify their actions by lying...50 shots? reload?..isnt that a bit accessive?...
-------------------- jordan Posts: 5812 | From: st paul,mn | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Doesn't matter, they were "criminals". I hope the protests that are planned bring that city to a screeching halt. I generally shy away from the rev but I hope he shuts the city down over this one.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I don't know if everyone here got the facts correctly but just to continue this discussion:
3 Shooters:
1 black cop = 4 shots (one shot actually went up into the air towards the airport train & went through glass in the waiting area)
1 black cop = 11 shots
1 white cop = 30 shots (reloaded his semi automatic)
This shooting occurred about half hour from where i live and work so I have a better perspective of it then others here. It was across the street from Jamaica Train Station (Long Island Rail Road). I frequently am at that station to either go to the airport by taking the airport train or to transfer trains or a stopover on the way to Manhattan. There is seedy characters downstairs but there is always cops around so no crime really happens in that train station because they are not stupid and know the cops around, be it plain clothes ones or uniform ones. You can see the strip joint across the street from there but in all my years of traveling back and forth from airport or Manhattan I have never witnessed a crime.
As for them trying to "run over a cop". The question is if it happened did that happen before, during or after the shooting. I would bet it happened during the shooting in a attempt to get away and not get shot.
It was his bachelor party/pre-wedding night. Do you really phucking believe Bell and his buddies were there to commit a crime(s)? He was from the neighborhood and much like me knows cops are always around there. If anything they were about to get into a drunken brawl if that. And the true criminal was the one they had a quarrel with who by all accounts did possess a gun and not Bell and his friends who did not have one. The cops panicked and shot the wrong man and to cover their azzes they probably made up the story that they heard one of Bell's companions say "go get my gun" or something to that effect.
IMO the verdict was just in the case of the two black officers but not with the white officer who did overkill. He shot 15 rounds and then reloaded a clip into his gun and shot another 15 rounds. Wouldn't you think that after the first 15 rounds and the car had halted and you saw the guy's head lean to the left or back in a "death" pose that after you reload you would approach the car instead or hide behind something when it looks like you shot him (which would be impossible to miss in enclosed car)?
Sorry PMS but this is my territory and i know the neighborhood much better then you. For you to say that cops wouldn't lie to protect their asses when they know they did wrong is being ignorant as usual. One of the cops (one of the black officers)even apologized to the family. If he felt justified in his shooting why would he do that?
Anyways after the verdict their was police presence as well as security where i worked as well as the train stations of Long Island. As far as I know no incidents of violence happened so not all blacks are "criminals" as you stereotype them PMS.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
in the more recent case where the (crazy?) guy had a hairbrush and said he had a gun? no charges were even filed against the cops... rightfully so...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:As far as I know no incidents of violence happened so not all blacks are "criminals" as you stereotype them PMS.
I have NEVER stereotyped blacks as "criminals" - not once! In fact, I have rarely mentioned race at all (although you lefties seem obsessed with it). I don't care about race - I care about behavior. Racism ended over a generation ago, even though you socialists can't get it out of your minds. It's over - get over it!
quote:IMO the verdict was just in the case of the two black officers but not with the white officer who did overkill. He shot 15 rounds and then reloaded a clip into his gun and shot another 15 rounds.
Ridiculous! Are you trying to make this a race issue? Get over it. Did they even say whose bullets killed the guy?
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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Why is it that we're so quick to pass judgement on those we ask to go into hell for us...
quote:Bell was killed just before dawn on his wedding day, November 25, 2006. He and several friends were winding up an all-night bachelor party at the Kalua Club in Queens, a strip club that was under investigation by a NYPD undercover unit looking into complaints of guns, drugs and prostitution.
If they knew the area well, why were they at a known hang out for ciminals? If it was a known hang out, why wouldn't the police rightfully assume that there might be weapons involved since that was the nature of the investigation?
And, personally, whenever Sharpton gets involved...I tend to lean to the other side out of knee jerk reaction. Biggest hypocritical racist this side of Jesse Jackson.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:two of his friends(not criminals) in the car said the people pointing guns at them never said they were cops.
Wrong again! This refers to one of the friends in the car: "On cross-examination, he was asked about the roughly five years he has spent in prison for a robbery conviction, later overturned and replaced with a reckless endangerment conviction, and a drug conviction for selling crack." According to the article, this friend was a crack dealer. Here's the reference:
posted
Nobody knows what the cops have seen, heard about, or been through....in their lives as cops. It's not right to judge them.
People hear the number of rounds that were fired, but don't realize that those rounds can be fired in a matter of seconds...at a time wheb addrenaline is flowing and you have to react quickly.
It's obvious that many don't know the whole story...and the ones that do know the whole story, have know clue what it's like to be an officer in that area
The situation could have been handled better....but ruining the lives of the officers will not bring the man back to life.
But what will happen....is the cops will become wiser and more experienced...and won't repeat the same mistake again.
Other cops will learn from this as well....Why ruine more lives than necessary Posts: 2321 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: I have NEVER stereotyped blacks as "criminals" - not once! In fact, I have rarely mentioned race at all (although you lefties seem obsessed with it). I don't care about race - I care about behavior. Racism ended over a generation ago, even though you socialists can't get it out of your minds. It's over - get over it!
Racism ended generations ago? what planet are you living in? lol As for you and stereotyping... you do it constantly except you use the politically correct word or words when you do and do not say blacks but when you say it we all know what you mean.
quote:Ridiculous! Are you trying to make this a race issue? Get over it. Did they even say whose bullets killed the guy?
Actually I'm not. I merely pointed out that the officer who fired the 30 shots is white because I cannot get their names straight. As for which bullets killed him? I would make a wager that one of the 30 bullets killed him more so then the other 15 fired by the other two officers.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: I have to wonder...
Why is it that we're so quick to pass judgement on those we ask to go into hell for us...
Because sometimes those same people are the hell raisers themselves.If you think cops do not commit acts together, whether criminally or not, and do not try to cover their azzes by lying about what happened then you are living in a dream world. I know from personal experience what they are capable of when something was done to me by them and they covered for each other. So spare me the speech you are giving.
quote:If they knew the area well, why were they at a known hang out for ciminals? If it was a known hang out, why wouldn't the police rightfully assume that there might be weapons involved since that was the nature of the investigation?
Why were they there? I would have to assume to see some T&A before he got married. Strip clubs of all kinds whether the "upscale gentlemen's clubs" or the sleazy ones all have someone with a criminal record hanging in there. This aint a church. There is a chicken place just around the corner from there where I go sometimes to eat while waiting for a train that I'm sure a criminal or two has walked into to buy food also. Do I have to worry that a trigger happy cop is going to shoot me because I'm hispanic and fit the racial profile they have in their minds of hispanics in general in that area and they could mishear me say: "Where's my fun tonight"? I would expect at least one of them to identify themselves as a cop before firing a shot. Trust me you guys don't know what you are talking about when it comes to that location. You only know what you read in the media. There is never ever a shootout in that particular area till now. I been passing and going through that area for the last 20 years (I'm 36 now).
quote:And, personally, whenever Sharpton gets involved...I tend to lean to the other side out of knee jerk reaction. Biggest hypocritical racist this side of Jesse Jackson.
Personally I hate Sharpton since he came into the scene years ago but not because of party affiliation but because he is a opportunist who does not believe in what he preaches. He is a dollar shyster. He gets involved in these causes because it puts him in the media spotlight which brings more followers and donations to him which I have no doubt he uses to live a nice lifestyle.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: [QUOTE] Racism ended over a generation ago, even though you socialists can't get it out of your minds. It's over - get over it!
ahem.... i'm white, male, and i know better than this.
we've come a long way, but racism is nowhere near dead.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
People hear the number of rounds that were fired, but don't realize that those rounds can be fired in a matter of seconds...at a time wheb addrenaline is flowing and you have to react quickly. [Wink]
i do Ace.. and i am not sure the guy that went thru two clips will be a cop much longer.
one cop did two full clips. ...dropping a clip and going to the second one and emptying it too is not the sign of a clear head... he'll be wondering, his boss'll be wondering and his partner too... sure, they'll put on a good face for a year, but that is excessive.... the WHOLE NYC dept only fired about 450 rounds in the line of duty last year...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ace of Spades: People hear the number of rounds that were fired, but don't realize that those rounds can be fired in a matter of seconds...at a time wheb addrenaline is flowing and you have to react quickly.
Excluding the two black officers who shot 4 shots and 11 shots respectively and did not reload because they were pretty damn sure they hit their target.The third officer emptied out a clip and reloaded and continued firing and emptying out another clip while his two partners had already stopped firing. That imo takes a little more time then a "matter of seconds". He could of fired the first clip (or less of course) then reloaded and pointed the weapon without firing to see if he was in any danger which of course he wasn't. The other two officers did that, so tell me what is so different from the 3rd officers perception.
quote:It's obvious that many don't know the whole story...and the ones that do know the whole story, have know clue what it's like to be an officer in that area
Quite peaceful actually. The criminals in that area actually don't phuck with the police, prior to this incident i mean.
quote:The situation could have been handled better....but ruining the lives of the officers will not bring the man back to life.
What about Bell's two daughters and fiancee? Which lives do you think were more ruined?
quote:But what will happen....is the cops will become wiser and more experienced...and won't repeat the same mistake again.
quote:Racism ended generations ago? what planet are you living in? lol
I didn't say that racism ended "generations" ago, I said it ended a generation ago. I'm living here in Ohio and I haven't seen hardly ANY racism for many years. What planet are YOU living on?
quote:As for you and stereotyping... you do it constantly except you use the politically correct word or words when you do and do not say blacks but when you say it we all know what you mean.
I don't have a politically correct bone in my body. I say what I mean and mean what I say (unlike the socialists, who must hide what they really think). I (and most other people) don't care about race. I do care about behavior. I suppose that when I talk about deadbeats, you think that's a codeword about minorities. That would be a totally wrong assumption. The vast majority of deadbeats in my little corner of Ohio are lazy, white, beer drinking hillbillies!
Get with the 21st century Mach. Except for you lefties, racism died in the last century!
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I'd agree with that on the whole. Still exists in pockets and from individual to individual... More than anything it exists politically.. when needed. For instance in this case it will be used to redirect anger from the government.. and towards white guys.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Still exists in pockets and from individual to individual...
That's very true and therefore the question arises of what is necessary to declare racism finally dead. Is the lack of racism with the vast majority of Americans good enough? Does every single person on the planet have to be free from racism for it to finally be over? It's like the environment issue - how clean is clean enough. For some on the left, racism can never end because it's the tool they use to keep people down and garner votes. Sad!
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
racism isnt even close to being dead!.are you blind?..The vast majority of americans are racist to some degree..thats just the way it is..PMS(archie) is a great example of that...
some of his best friends are black(or hispanic,indian.etc),,right PMS?
you are so full of it..
-------------------- jordan Posts: 5812 | From: st paul,mn | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
The vast majority of Americans are not racist. Turn the TV off and go outside. Mainstream media hasn't noticed that we are all for the most part, getting along just fine.
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