posted
No, that isn't going beyond freedom of speach. As they say about tv programs the you find a prigram disgusting, turn the knob (in this case, just don't participate if you find it disgusting).
Along with the splendid freedoms we get because of the Constitution, it also imposes a serious obligation to ballance our own reactions to other's exercising their's.
What is that saying about the true measure of a society is its protection and patience with the most vile of its members and their vileness?
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Our country is going to hell in a hand basket because of people like this who have no honor or patriotism. You can say they do.....Burning the american flag and burning what looks like a soldier is terrible. Yes they have that freedom and they also have the freedom to get the hell out of this country if they like. You can justify it all day long it still sucks!!
Posts: 1178 | From: Mobile, AL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Those people have tremendous honor and patrotism, whetjher or not I agree with them.
They are "petitioning the government", in a way that is visable and public, so that the government cannot say they haven't.
Have you ever heard a phrase like that, andy, "petitioning the government"? I think you might find something in one of the amendments of the Bill of Rights.
Burning a flag and burning a dummy are not illegal and certainly, as they have been ruled protected by the Constitution, they are not un-patriotic.
Something that is un-patriotic and un-American to an extreme is to tell people that are practicing the freedoms given to them by the Constitution to " get the hell out of this country".
Without the Constitution and its various provisions and limitations on the government, there would be no United States of America to which you might assign patriotism. You may burn a copy of it, by its own requirements. However, defiling the legal ramifications or pleading for such disloyalty to any of the elements of that document is to ask for the cessation of our nation........that, sir, is un-patriotic and un-American.
Those peole are proud Americans, exercising their right to assembly, to speach, and to petition the Government.
If you don't like it, don't join them, but for the Nation's sake, get it through your head......they have the right to exercise their Constitutional rights and exercising those rights is what Americans do.
You cannot rid opinions different from your own by destroying the people that don't agree or casting them or shaming them out of the Country. It just wouldn't be American, according to the Constitution.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I said they can leave if they wish. Never said for them to get the hell out of the country, of course thats is their option. And it my option and "Freedom of Speech" to say that I dont agree with what they do and that they are wrong at what they do.
Burning the Flag and a dummy that looks like a soldier IS, in my opinion, unpatriotic.
Sounds like you are defending them but bashing me for my freedom of speech.
That sir is why this is a great country, we can agree to disagree. I respect your view and do understand what you are saying.
Posts: 1178 | From: Mobile, AL | Registered: Aug 2005
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That's all this is. You hear the chants? I bet they spent all night thinking those up. LOL
Is this really what we are growling about? A bunch of kids burning a flag? Anybody here remember Vietnam? I don't really but I know enought to know this ain't anything like it. Things go that far and yeah, then I'd agree with you that folks aren't supporting the troops.
This is just kids being stupid to get on TV.
By the way, I had some friends at that peace rally. The stories they came back with didn't sound anything like that video. FYI in case you care.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Gordon Bennett: I'd rather burn the flag and wrap myself in the Constitution than burn the Constitution and wrap myself in the flag.
quote:Originally posted by rimasco: Not so much the flag...But the soldier?
At least they were educated enough to wear masks
Like the Klan, you mean? :rolleyes:
No, Gord..., like guys that didn't want to be recognized the next week by the Klan or have the Klan or some equally violent bunch that calls anything they don't understand or know how to counter, with speach, unpatriotic, show up in the middle of the night at their home eager to deny them their right to speak by beating them to a pulp.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
In America, you have the freedom of speech. You may say whatever you choose.
However, freedom of speech does not free you from the consequences of that which you choose to say.
I will most certainly respect your right to burn an American flag and say whatever you choose about America.....
....But that doesn't mean I won't beat your a$$ down afterwards for disrespecting my country.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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It seems he doesn't recognize your right to live, let alone for you to live in the USA or for you to have it be your country. Certainly, as he has bluntly stated, he doesn't intend to allow you to have the rights granted by the Constitution without reprisal by him, so you can learn to "keep in your place, boy".
He is advocating committing a felony in response to someone's actions in exercising their right to free speach, granted to them by the Constitution.
Now, let me see, isn't that also conspiring to violate the Civil rights of another, making it even be an aditioinal felony.
Then there is the consideration of whether "beat(ing) your a$$ down" for you having different feelings and attitudes or beliefs than his makes that a "hate crime", thereby, acrueing additional punishment. I think it meets the legal definition of "hate speach". Don't you?
Even if he doesn't follow through for whatever reason, his public and blunt statement that he can, with the obvious implication that he would, in order to stop you from voicing your opinion and to punish you for doing so (here or elsewhere doesn't matter to the law), constitutes assault with intent to do harm, under the law and that meets the legal definition.
If I am right that you and he are in different states when he made that threat, you have the right to prefer federal criminal charges.
Remember, Gord.... When the federal prosecuter acts on your behalf, there are no attorneys fees. It becomes the United States of America vs. Natural Resources.
Hee hee hee, that last sentence sounds like the last 6 years, doesn't it.
lol
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
If you want to get technical about it Bdgee... The first amendment only protects your freedom of speech from being infringed upon by the government... I am not the government.
Regardless, I wouldn't "beat someone down" in order to stop them from saying whatever they want, and my comments were directed at no one in particular.
If they were getting "beat down" by me, then they have already exercised their "freedom of speech".
All I'm saying is, one might not like the response I would have were I to see them burning a effigy of a US soldier while chanting "throw them all on the pile".
I know people who have died serving this country, and if you think I am going to "turn the knob" in response to some disrespectful punk bad-mouthing our service men who deserves to be "put in his place", then you sir, are sadly mistaken....
BTW, seeing as how this took place in Seattle, I am almost willing to bet that these punks were probably part of the "Anarchy" group that frequent events that occur there. They don't believe in the constitution. They believe in Anarchy.... I'll be happy to give it to them, even if it means I spend time in jail....
Somebody has to stand up for the men and women who stand up for the rest of us....
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Who is to say I am not outraged Gordo? Just because I have not posted anything here on Allstocks regarding the subject means nothing...
Think about that before you call me a Hypocrite....
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Technically, you may not threaten anyone over anything....period. But if you are threatening someone in an attempt to prevent them from exercising their civil rights, it is a felony, by act of Congress, signed by the poresident.
"I wouldn't "beat someone down" in order to stop them from saying whatever they want, and my comments were directed at no one in particular."
Oh but you said you would and you directed at someone in particular.
"If they were getting "beat down" by me, then they have already exercised their "freedom of speech"."
Perhaps, but the fact that you are attempting to impose your will upon them in order to alter their own speach is a violation of their civil rights. Doing so is a federal felony. Planning to do it is a conspiracy to do it, another federal felony. Announcing your intent to do so ahead of time assured it was premeditated, not simply an act of passion.
"All I'm saying is, one might not like the response I would have were I to see them burning a effigy of a US soldier while chanting "throw them all on the pile"."
It angers a lot of us but we recognize that respecting their rights is fundamental to our Nation and not respecting others rights IS ILLIGAL when you carry it to the point of describing what physical reprisal you will do if they exercize their right. Intimidation is an act of interfering with the right to free speach.
"I know people who have died serving this country,"
What makes you think you are alone in that? Worse, what makes you think you have the right to act on your feelings? Are you soliciting a challenge to see which of us has known more people that died for the country? How childish!
We all morn the dead from among our fighting men and women, so stop acting like you are better than others.
If you think that the Constitution either appoints you are permits you to "put in his place" a person or persons that are exercising their Constitutional rights, you are 100% wromg. Indeed, it is a violation of the Constitution for you to attempt to impose your private standars on the actions of another, if that person is acting in accordance with the law. These people clearly were acting in accordance with the law. Beyond the law, there are crimes (not just civil actions), enacted by Congress and signed into law by the president, specifically denying to you any right or privilege to interfere with another person exercising their Constitutional rights. You sir, are wrong!!!!
Talk about bigotry, you openly accuse a particular group of people of being involved when you have nothing to justify that but your own admitted loathing of them. Personal feelings do not over-ride the stipulations of the Constitution...EVER!
However dispicable another person may be or however dispicable their act, if it does not impose on mine and does no harm to anythong but my feelings o wishes, they hAve a right to be dispicable and you may not interfere.
"Somebody has to stand up for the men and women who stand up for the rest of us...."
We all stand up for them, not just you. No more of that arrogange, please.
We do so by not disrespecting that thing so prescious that we could dare ask them to take the chance of sacrificing their life for it. That thing is the Constitution and nothing else.
Not the physical preresentation of it on paper or as a flag or symbol. Those are trivial and false idols. It is the concepts and structures presented in the Constitution that we hold dear, all of them in every detail and nuance, because that is the heart and sole and the whole apparaus of the United States of America and that includes those details and nuances that any one of us may not find pleasant or attractive at some particular time or place or when acted on by some particular person.
I'm sad you are so filled with hateful vengence. Try walking in another mans moccasins, for a while, even if you can't stand him or his stands and even if they don't fit. I find it helps to do so on pleasant spring mornings, but it works in other times as well. If you can arrange do it with the company of a 4 or 5 year old child full of questions and excitement with living, it can be even more benifitial. You'll come back relaxed and wanting to share that excitiung generosity with everyone in the world.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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it is worth a mess if it causes people to actually think rather than just being angry and acting on raw emotion.
Our Constitution gives us a splendid government to work with and protectour welfare and rights an privileges that are wonderful.
But it also imposes on each of us the responsiblity of studying it and understanding, It expects each of us to contribute, in that way, to the society and culture it sets up.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
bdgee.....could you give us a little auto-biography. Interested in knowing a little about you. You seem to be pretty intelligent.
Posts: 1178 | From: Mobile, AL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Andy, I'm just old enough to have worked at many different things (had to in order to eat) and had the opportunity to gather bits of knowledge from each of them and the ditches and byways along the road.
Someday you to will be old. Don't let it sneak up on you without having accumilated enough interest and knowledge to keep you busy when your knees or heart or eyes or hands won't permit the things you did in earlier years (or the company tell you it is retirement time).
Now let me add an idea that I used to point out to know-it-all sophomores and lazy graduate students with too rich daddies. If you are so damned smart that you don't need any help, then why do you need to go to school?
I had some truely splendid teachers (and some not so splendid) that led me to an eventful and enjoyable life because they "didn't" teach me things, but caused me to learn to learn.
Read, read, read, and then, read.
Read everything....novels and manuals and text books (I don't approve of using mathematics testbooks though) and post cards and cereal boxes and Burma Shave signs.
And never avoid a chance to debate baseball or politics or sexual moores of polecats and inbreading in royal families or whether or not Neils Bohr was the greatest physicist of the 20th century or if there was actually art in the on stage gyrations Elvis Presley. There is always so much to learn and it rewards with so many interest.
You may have to grow old and weak, but never stop exercising your mind. It is, after all, our real home.
(I do have a few skins on the wall and am known in some quite advanced scollarly groups and societies. But that is anotherr me.)
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
A group of students once asked me, "If you could live your life over, what mistakes would you not make the second time through?"
My answer, after a moment's pause to consider the question: "None. Given the chance to live my life, over I would do most of my mistakes twice, at least. After all, I thought I was right each of the first times and most involved as much fun and pleasiure as anything else."
You can gain from just about any experience, if you choose to do so..
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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