SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea's decision to test a nuclear weapon may mean no more French wines and spirits for the Dear Leader or jet skis for his beloved sons.
The United Nations is moving closer to imposing sanctions on North Korea for its announced nuclear test on Monday that include steps to hit the Stalinist state's nuclear and missile programmes as well as keeping luxury goods away from its leaders.
"In a country as impoverished as North Korea, luxury goods are a key currency that keep the elite happy and reward those who win the favour of its leaders," said a South Korean government official, who asked not to be identified.
No one enjoys luxury goods more than paramount leader Kim Jong-il, who boasts the country's finest wine cellar with space for 10,000 bottles.
Kim has a penchant for fine food such as lobster, caviar and the most expensive cuts of sushi that he has flown in to him from Japan, according to Kim's former chef.
Kenji Fujimoto, a pseudonym, who worked as Kim's personal sushi chef in the late 1980s and 1990s at a time when more than 1 million North Koreans perished in a famine, said in a book Kim would go to extremes to satisfy his appetite.
Kim would have aides purchase caviar for him in Iran and even sent one envoy to Beijing to bring back McDonald's hamburgers, he said.
He would give gifts such as lingerie, a bidet, foreign currency and a down blanket to winners of gun-shooting matches or gambling games, Fujimoto said.
Intelligence officials in the South who are familiar with Kim's habit's said the North's leader has mellowed over the years, especially in terms of drinking. He has curtailed his intake of cognac and these days enjoys sipping wine.
The biggest gifts for top cadres are cars, with Mercedes Benz the brand of choice for the elite. Other gifts include pianos, camcorders and leather love seats.
Michael Breen, a Seoul-based consultant and author of "Kim Jong-il: North Korea's Dear Leader", said it might be difficult to curtail the North's purchase of luxury goods.
Breen said the North had people overseas purchase the goods and ship them back to North Korea, or bring them in personally.
Kim used to have envoys buy elaborate toys overseas for his three known sons when they were children, Breen said. Now that they have grown up, they prefer jet skis, according to Fujimoto.
Luxury brand companies for the most part have no direct dealings with the North.
Then there is the matter of what constitutes luxury goods, especially for the average North Korean who earns a dollar or two a day.
"For the average comrade on the streets of Pyongyang, a luxury good would be a hamburger, or maybe even a second bowl of rice," Breen said.
(With additional reporting by Jang Sera)
Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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I'm sure glad that some want to make a deal with Kim Jong.
After all, the man is just trying to keep his impoverished people from being killed by invading Americans.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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LoL that's funny NR... the guy don't care about anyone but himself... and perhaps just the people closest to him.. other then that he doesn't give a sh*t about the North Korean population in general whether they starve or not etc...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: LoL that's funny NR... the guy don't care about anyone but himself... and perhaps just the people closest to him.. other then that he doesn't give a sh*t about the North Korean population in general whether they starve or not etc...
I agree. So why are there some who believe diplomacy is going to work with this guy?
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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I agree. So why are there some who believe diplomacy is going to work with this guy?
because there is no other option?
LOL..
all you "talk tough" bozo's are the ones who don't have to squeeze off the rounds...
y'all make me sick...
we'll just go kill all of the 20 million poor eople that live in N Korea to get rid of Kim Jong..
heck it's only as big as Mississppi... we'll be welcomed as liberators, 6 weeks and it'll be over? right? Bush can fly in onto an Aircraft Carrrier and declare Mission Accomplished or "bring it on" or what ever he wants...
sheesh..what a crock of chit..
N Korea is S Korea, China, Russia and Japan's problem... not ours.... we are not the world police...
China and S Kore are the ones with the most to lose, their positions are the most important...
they are not taking quite as strong a stance as we are, which is how diplomacy works... we are the hammer, they are the anvil....
as far as BLAME in American politics? it's a joke.. and the people blaming each other should be emabrrassed for acting like kindergarteners..... Bolton is still waiting to be properly elected by the GOP congress to his UN position...what a joke... can't even get his own parties support...
it really was nothing much more than a nuclear cigarete lighter.. peice of junk...
how many more tests can they conduct over there? LOL..not too many before they run out of places to dig holes.... N Korea is tiny...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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So Glass, you believe diplomacy will work because there is no other option?
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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I'm neither for diplomacy or Invasion... It's China and Russia's problem... so let them deal with it and let's worry about problems in our own country...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Machiavelli, you are saying that North Korea isn't a threat to the US or US interests?
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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There are always more that the limited two options you would allow on all questions, your preference and it's opposite (or more correctly, what you specify to be its opposite).
Then too, I have some concern about what exactly you think is the opposite of a statement.
Your arguments are all of the sort that results from something like saying either a person believes in god or he doesnt (which immediately enacts a logical impossibility and falacy, as follows in example). Where then does that leave the person whose answer to the qusetion, "Do you believe in god?" he recognizes has the honest answer, "I don't believe in your god.", when in fact the the only possible answers you are allowing are either "Yes" or "No"?
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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ahh no... as much as Kim would like us to believe he is.. he is not stupid.. his threats, tests etc. are just a little brat trying to annoy the world but he knows whatever weapons he has will never compare to china, russia, U.S. and other superpower's weapons.. he knows before his weapons ever reach U.S. shores we can destroy him/North Korea from bases around the world including ones near NK.. he has seen what we did to Sadaam etc. and he knows we can do the same to him if we wished..Like i had said in some other post.. NK is nothing but a little turd coming out of China's ass (even looks like it on a map lol).. he is no threat to our interests with the exception of trying to drive a rift between us and China.. so again he is doing this to :
1. To be a little annoying sh*t and laugh about how we and the world reacts. It's a game to him.
2. Other then a game he is trying to force us to end sanctions on his terms to show he is a world power when in reality he is not. He is a power in NK and that is pretty much it. He has a major ego and his a legend in his own Azz.
So again he is no threat except to himself but such antics. I am just surprised there has never been a coup det grace in NK... Just takes one brave soul to shoot that sh*t in the head. Sure perhaps that soul would get killed but it would be for the good of his/her country. If Kim was killed the NK government would collapse.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: ahh no... as much as Kim would like us to believe he is.. he is not stupid.. his threats, tests etc. are just a little brat trying to annoy the world but he knows whatever weapons he has will never compare to china, russia, U.S. and other superpower's weapons.. he knows before his weapons ever reach U.S. shores we can destroy him/North Korea from bases around the world including ones near NK.. he has seen what we did to Sadaam etc. and he knows we can do the same to him if we wished..Like i had said in some other post.. NK is nothing but a little turd coming out of China's ass (even looks like it on a map lol).. he is no threat to our interests with the exception of trying to drive a rift between us and China.. so again he is doing this to :
1. To be a little annoying sh*t and laugh about how we and the world reacts. It's a game to him.
2. Other then a game he is trying to force us to end sanctions on his terms to show he is a world power when in reality he is not. He is a power in NK and that is pretty much it. He has a major ego and his a legend in his own Azz.
So again he is no threat except to himself but such antics. I am just surprised there has never been a coup det grace in NK... Just takes one brave soul to shoot that sh*t in the head. Sure perhaps that soul would get killed but it would be for the good of his/her country. If Kim was killed the NK government would collapse.
I think you are leaving out two important US interests in the area that make it necessary for the US to be involved. SK and Japan.
Using your same logic, NK is no more a threat to China and Russia than to the US. Why should they be concerned?
Also, to suggest that we should leave China and Russia to solve the NK problem is foolish IMO, since they are the ones that gave NK most of the Nuclear and Missile Technology in the first place.
Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Yes SK and Japan are our concerns. But SK does not really want us there. Trust me on this because I am friends with a girl from SK who is studying english here and SK's feelings about us are not good. Mainly because of U.S. soldiers raping SK women and getting away with it with a slap on the wrist etc. Henceforth they do not want our military there even though they know they need us at the border to protect them. So you can quote all you want from Rep politicians or Conservative newspapers but I'm getting this from a SK citizen directly.
My logic is that NK is more a threat militarily to Russia and China due to the fact that they are next to each other geographically.They can reach each other much easier then they can reach us. After all we are separated by thousands of miles and a ocean. So you are incorrect with this. And like I had made in posts previously. It is in both Russia's and China's best interest to intervene with NK because both countries have alot invested with the U.S. and vice versa. We are both countries number #1 customer of their products and henceforth they do not want some little turd country like NK to distrupt that because Kim is a little brat baby who ants to tick people off for the sport of it.
It is not foolish to let them deal with it because like it or not we are partners with Russia and China economically and otherwise. This is not the Cold War no more and we are not enemies with them anymore. We are economic partners as Iv'e stated. And we have no proof that they gave NK the nuclear and missile technology anymore then we can accuse Germany, France or some other country. It is plausible that they did but it's just a accusation and assumption. If they did give it to them wouldn't it had more sense to have done so back during the Cold War years when Russia and China were both our enemies? It would make more sense militarily wise back then and not now. And do not forget China and Russia are both on NK's north border. They want China and Russia to open those borders for trade and economic help. So isn't it also more plausible that NK is doing this to force talks with those two countries then with us? We are just making a situation worst by interfering. Our only interest for entering this is the safety of SK and Japan which I have no doubt Kim wouldn't be stupid enough to attack. He is all talk much like Castro and other dictators are when it comes to saying they will attack us. Other then Al Quaeda attacking us on 9/11/2001 the only nation to have attacked us in the 20th century was Japan and they did so when they were a military power. NK isn't much of a military power IMO. They can do some damage but much like Sadaam's army it would be crushed in time.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: So Glass, you believe diplomacy will work because there is no other option?
for US?
yes, there is no other option..
you are crazy if you think China or Russia will allow US to invade N Kore...
bombing them would just make things worse...
you must be reading Willima Krystal BS op-eds if you think we are in any positon to do anything other than intercept N Korean missiles after they are launched... we might possibly get away with hitting them on the launch pads, but we could have done that in July and didn't...
you are drunk on dreams of unlimited power... wake up man, before it's too late...
you probably think Libby is innocent too.. LOL...
the only thing kimjongills nukes ar good for is to blow up IF we invade them or bomb them...
if you listen to our own military? you'd know that they say we are already spread to thin. that IS why kimjongill has been able to do as much as he has done...
and China has been happy to loan Bush enough money ( more than all other presidents have borrowed combined ) to extend ourselves this deeply into enemy territory, because this is about as far as we can go right now...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Don't the rightwing war mongers understand that invading North Korea would cause an almost instantanious reformation of the U.S.S.R? It isn't gone yet, just lying in the bushes waiting for the chance to regroup.
The Chinese would immediately mobilize and that would be all the the old Communist party would need as an excuse to take back control of Russia and most of the old republic would fll in line.
Those old line communist leaders are as knee jerk about us as our psycho-rightwingers are about them.
God spare us all from ill thinking chest thumping extremist!
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Yep, an endless war against an evil enemy, so Big Brother can control the people.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Let me ask you guys this. What will America do if Kim Jong decided to attack South Korea or Japan? You do realize we have treaties that require us to help.....
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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What will America do if Kim Jong does not decide to attack South Korea or Japan?
What makes you so hate the North Koreans that you beg for and concoc excuses to attack them?
Didn't you get enough of that and of invading essentually defensless third world countries to satisfy you appetite in Iraq?
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: Let me ask you guys this. What will America do if Kim Jong decided to attack South Korea or Japan? You do realize we have treaties that require us to help.....
we'll have to start a draft... Bush and Rummy have already started troop reductions over there:
Is there controversy over the presence of U.S. forces on South Korean soil?
In recent years, both Washington and Seoul have publicly said they agree the U.S. Force Korea (USFK), the combined American air, ground, and naval forces, should transfer its wartime command authority to South Korea. The two have agreed on a slow drawdown in the number of U.S. troops, as well as a redeployment of American forces away from populated areas close to the northern border. Under the current structure, the U.S. general heading USFK commands the Combined Forces Command (CFC), and the South Korean general directing South Korean forces serves as deputy commander. The United States handed control of some military bases over to South Korea in 2004, and plans to decrease its number of troops from roughly 30,000 at present to 25,000 by 2008. The Bush administration already has reduced the U.S. military presence in South Korea to roughly 30,000 troops as the U.S. Defense Department sees a greater need for military resources in Middle East conflicts. For his part, Roh has depicted the power transfer, which both sides agree should happen by 2009, and gradual troop withdrawal as a matter of national sovereignty.
if he is being bolder now? it is because he sees the deployment problems we face...
China will have no choice but to step up to the plate here... they would be very unhappy if we suddenly reduced the amount of trade between US and them...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Japan? Do you really think they can't take care of themselves? They will wipe the floor with NK before we can mobilze more than basic support and be a known presence to stop other countries from taking the advantage of the situation.
South Korea? A more likely scenario. Still. They should be able to hold out for a few weeks without our help.
Let NK fire the first shot if they are stupid enough to do so. Then no one can condemn our action if we respond or uphold our treaties. And who knows...maybe just maybe Kim's Jong Il's underlings won't let him take it quite that far. In which case the ressults we want will eventually happen.
BF
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: NR, I'll ask you three questions.
What will America do if Kim Jong does not decide to attack South Korea or Japan?
What makes you so hate the North Koreans that you beg for and concoc excuses to attack them?
Didn't you get enough of that and of invading essentially defenseless third world countries to satisfy you appetite in Iraq?
If Kim Jong does not attack SK or Japan, then we do nothing..... I was simply asking "what if".
Second, I don't hate North Koreans, I hate Kim Jong and his Stalinist Regime. As far was what he did to deserve being attacked... Well, someone with an IQ of 3 could figure that one out....
Third, I am not out to attack defenseless little third world countries, but I am out to offer help to other humans repressed by their governments, even if this means force of some kind.
I cannot help it that American politicians don't know how to properly help these people that live under tyrany.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: And we have no proof that they gave NK the nuclear and missile technology anymore then we can accuse Germany, France or some other country. It is plausible that they did but it's just a accusation and assumption.
Really? I guess you've never heard of the Soviet IRT-2M research reactor built in Yongbyon in the mid 1960's or the FROG-5 and FROG-7A missiles acquired from the Soviet Union in the 70's.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: NR, I'll ask you three questions.
What will America do if Kim Jong does not decide to attack South Korea or Japan?
What makes you so hate the North Koreans that you beg for and concoc excuses to attack them?
Didn't you get enough of that and of invading essentially defenseless third world countries to satisfy you appetite in Iraq?
If Kim Jong does not attack SK or Japan, then we do nothing..... I was simply asking "what if".
Second, I don't hate North Koreans, I hate Kim Jong and his Stalinist Regime. As far was what he did to deserve being attacked... Well, someone with an IQ of 3 could figure that one out....
Third, I am not out to attack defenseless little third world countries, but I am out to offer help to other humans repressed by their governments, even if this means force of some kind.
I cannot help it that American politicians don't know how to properly help these people that live under tyrany.
Yes, I know someone with an IQ of 3 could figure out what Nort Korea did to deserve being attacked.
That's exactly why I asked you. I don't have an IQ of 3, so I am doing the obvious thing and asking one that can figuree it out.
I'm listening?
So, you say, "If Kim Jong does not attack SK or Japan, then we do nothing..... I was simply asking "what if"."
Well, now, you are finally admitting that there is a chance that attack by North Korea is not an absolutely foregone conclusion.
That does make a big difference. On a scale of 0 - 1, with 0 being no chance and 1 being attack is certain, since you have the inside poop from god (or maybe dubya who was born amongst the rich and privileged and has announced that he regurly gets direct messages from god, so he too would know), exactly what is the probaability that North Korea will attaack?
If there is the chance you are wrong and North Korea won't attack us, I don't think we should blow a hole in the bottom of the treasury again like we have for Iraq (and anyway, I don't think the Chinese will be willing to help us with the money to attaack North Korea like they have with Iraq).
There is an end to how much money a super power can blow to wage war, even with a tiny third world only partially civilized country like North Korea. I mean, if you doubt that. ask the Soviet Union about Afganistan (if you can find anyone to speak for the Soviet Union that blew the bottom out of its treasury and ceased to exists as a result of fighting Afganistan).
"I am out to offer help to other humans repressed by their governments, even if this means force of some kind.", you say.
All of them or only those that anger dubya? (Or maybe those with slanty eyes or non-christain religions or skin a different color or some other thing that us red necks don't like 'cause we have aright to decide, just like dubya does.) How many are on the list.
There must be 50 - 100 countries with poor oppressed people and which meet your criteria and, therefore, using your reasoning, we need to attack them?
Wanna do 'em all in?
One at a time or all at once?
Is there enough money in all the world to fight that many wars?
Are there enough young men and women to fill the raanks of our fighting fores to wage that many wars, either one at a time or all at once?
Osama Ben Laden explained exactly how he would defeat the United States. As he said, he has already done in the U.S.S.R. by making it spend more money fighting him than it could and survive. He can us too, with the mentaality of you and dubya insisting on constaant war.
The man has a record of success! Don't you listen?
Back to "If Kim Jong does not attack SK or Japan, then we do nothing."
That is, there is a chance he won't attack and we can mind our own business.
In that case, why continue to do things to force him to attack or make him believe he must attack?
Wouldn't acting that way be really stupid?
Be terribly expensive too.
And dumb!
But what do I know. As you pointed out, my IQ isn't less than 4. So you tell me?
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Well said, Bdgee. They'll destroy us economically first.
And NR? The US Government is repressing me right now.
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: I am out to offer help to other humans repressed by their governments, even if this means force of some kind.
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Some young people wear clothes bestrewed with U.S. paper currency in the downtown of Moscow, Oct. 12. They made an antidollar parade, protesting using U.S. dollars in Russia. (Photo: Xinhua/AFP)
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Way to set up a straw-man, then knock him down. Bdgee, are you sure you aren't a politician?
Couple things though, I have never suggested that an attack by NK was emanate. Apparently you have reading comprehension problems.
Also, I want to make it clear that I think Kim Jong needs to be attacked, not NK. Please make sure you understand the distinction and its ramifications on your straw-man argument.
You can argue all you want about whether or not the US can afford full scale war, it is pointless in this discussion because I am not advocating full scale war, nor am I suggesting that war is the answer to all situations. I am merely stating that sometimes force is necessary and diplomacy cannot solve all the world's problems.
You are arguing against false assumptions you make about me and what I think, because you believe I am a mindless Bush-Bot.
You try to paint me as a warmonger, just like you paint everyone else that disagrees with you.
You also try to paint me as prejudice. What part of "human" do you not understand? I used that word for a very good reason. Think about it for a minute.
I purposely pointed out that I believe today's politicians are not capable of helping those oppressed by their governments so trying to bring Bush and his policies into the matter are irrelevant.
As far as NK not attacking SK and the US "minding our own business" ..... Interesting to know that you would rather turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed by Kim Jong to the people of NK than do something about it, other than try to broker deals with the man responsible....
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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And Gordon? You think you are repressed? Try living in NK. Try living in Iran.
Sure, there are problems here in the US but there are billions of humans that suffer worse than we do. The answer IMO isn't to ignore everyone else until we are perfect over here and then try to do something to help others..... it will be too late by then.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: And Gordon? You think you are repressed? Try living in NK. Try living in Iran.
Sure, there are problems here in the US but there are billions of humans that suffer worse than we do. The answer IMO isn't to ignore everyone else until we are perfect over here and then try to do something to help others..... it will be too late by then.
Third, I am not out to attack defenseless little third world countries, but I am out to offer help to other humans repressed by their governments, even if this means force of some kind.
where did we hear this before? LOL... oh yeah...
Iraqis were dying to be "liberated" too...
you still don't get it do you...
you can't GIVE people freedom... they trade the old boss in for the new boss...
i posted the Declaration of Independance up here today... you should go re-read IT...
basically? we told the King to go effhimeslf...
i don't see any of these people you want to "go help" doing that....
even in MODERN Europe? they still have a lot of Monarchy's...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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So what are you saying Glass? Let em all suffer until they figure it out and stand up for themselves?
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: So what are you saying Glass? Let em all suffer until they figure it out and stand up for themselves?
i'm saying that they have decided to live this way and you won't fix them by invading...
you'll just be the new boss...
Iraq will have a new dictator soon as well..
they DEMAND it...
the current situation in Iraq was predicted by George Bush the Firsts staff, and he agreed...
it was written down in a book long before dubya got elected..
you have partaken of the evangelical democratic koolaid....
how did Castro take over Cuba? he KILLED people for it...
nobody is gonna die for somebody else's country...
people do die to defend their land...
Japan and Germany are teh ANOMOLY in history, not the norm.... and they were UTTERLY destroyed...
warriors may be more than happy to fight in a war for various reasons, but do not paint that with a humanitarian brush... they can win all of the battels in a foregin land, but they have never won the wars... how many colonies does Britain still have? LOL
Bush took US into Iraq because he convinced US we needed to defend ourselves against sadam...
anything LESS than that? and there would have been no Iraq war... i don't care what Bush says about doing it anyway..he's dreaming...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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