posted
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his law firm, with backup from powerful lawyers from tobacco litigation, have filed lawsuits against the major vendors of electronic voting machines alleging fraudulent claims.
Kennedy: "I've been meeting with attorneys... to devise a litigation strategy. And I would say that very soon we'll be announcing lawsuits against some of the individuals and companies involved."
With potentially catastrophic financial consequences, why do stock boards for publicly owned Diebold Inc. contain a press release for a recent Diebold acquisition, yet not a word about a lawsuit that could cost the company a billion dollars, devastating stockholders?
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
posted
Maybe it will lead to something being done toward making those things actually reliable and trustworthy. They aren't aven close now. Of course, even that that doesn't make the ones in control of the machines honest.
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posted
It's obvious that the Government doesn't want a simple and accurate voting system.
(And the last two Presidential elections are an indication why...)
Imagine, if you will, that Bank of America announced that they would no longer issue receipts for ATM transactions. They would quickly lose almost all their customers.
Why is it okay to have no verification process when we cast a vote for the leader of the free world?
A Sharpie is a good (probably the best) solution. (Of course there would suddenly be a wave of defective Sharpies that can't make accurate dots.)
There's another solution, and one that Diebold has known about for years. It's a handy device called a printer. (You may have even received a printout yourself at any of the tens of thousands of Diebold ATMs worldwide. LOL)
After you vote, your machine spits out a receipt. You verify its accuracy and then drop it in a ballot box. Later, if there is any question as to the accuracy of the electronic tally, the paper receipts can be counted by an independent party. They can even be numbered so that any missing or out-of-sequence numbers could be investigated and the paper number could be compared to the electronic number for consistency.
NOTE: I still prefer the Sharpie Solution. It's cheaper and, provided the votes are actually counted, Nearly 100% accurate.
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Col. Homes Notarized Statement As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93 September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record: Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program: There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States. The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft, "Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record. Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army. The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification. The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces. I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue. Eugene Holmes Colonel, U.S.A., Ret. September 1992
posted
I don't see how this is relevant. This was 2 years ago. Get off the party line. The real issue is Clinton's draft record. I think Bush actually won all 5o states in 2004 but the dems fixed the computers to make it look close. I have no proof, no links, no sources, but if you say I'm wrong I will accuse you of being a party liner.
posted
I'm not a party member, so that line of BS doesn't work with me. However I do see that the topic of this thread, I.E. Election Theft, scares you to death.
What if it is revealed that Bush actually lost the election?
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
posted
OK enough of that. Truce Gordo? if it was revealed Bush lost the election I would support any means necessary to make it right. If that meant Bush leaving office, so be it. The rightful person needs to be in office. The peoples will must be heade, as long as it is within the framework of election laws. What do they do in a situation like that?
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There is no precedent as far as I know. It would be fascinating to see how they would work it out.
P.S. Johnwayne, I ain't mad atcha. Just so you know, I didn't like Clinton. I liked him better than Bush, (and who can blame me for that?) but I can say the same for Nixon. LOL
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
posted
"What if it is revealed that Bush actually lost the election?"
since it is on official record, your question is like instant replay in Baseball: nothing changes. Look folks, you hate Bush, we get that. Why continue to fabricate the election results. They are marked official, history has transpired and nothing will reverse that.
And deep down, Americans voted in record numbers, with the outcome to support the president who made a painful but correct, factually-supported decision to end the tyranny of a butcher.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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And deep down, Americans voted in record numbers, with the outcome to support the president who made a painful but correct, factually-supported decision to end the tyranny of a butcher.
heeehehehehehe
you are hooked on religion like a drug boy...
there's no saving people from themselves.. the fact is? iraq is about ready to meltdown, and your boy Dubya is the reason....
his factually-supported decision was made in the haze of hate and fear...
he got on TV and told the voters that sadam was ready to nuke US... and then when he didn't find ANY WMDs? he covered the facts up till after the election....
the majority of Americans still believed we would find or had already found WMDs on the day of the 04 election.. simple rovism again... you got it bad. i doubt there's any hope you'll ever recover either...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: OK enough of that. Truce Gordo? if it was revealed Bush lost the election I would support any means necessary to make it right. If that meant Bush leaving office, so be it. The rightful person needs to be in office. The peoples will must be heade, as long as it is within the framework of election laws. What do they do in a situation like that?
hey JW. you guys are starting to remind me of spammers...
it's one thing to post opinions, have discussions, bring in links .cut-n-paste... to make your points
it another thing entirely to post whole articles ove ran doveran dover again.. we aren't interested in wee willy clinton...he's history get it?
HILLARY? fair game...
i don't like her don't want her in the race at all...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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I will agree to that if some on here quit hijacking my threads and telling me what I can post a topic about. And I might point out that many on here are posting the same stuff about Bush over and over and over again. If that's considered Spam, they are spammers.
I clearly pointed out right in the title of my thread that it was about Clinton, yet many posters came over and told me it was irrelevent, while continuing to post on my thread. If some feel it's irrelevant don't read it. That was why that letter found it's way over here.
Spilled milk. I think you will find that I have not done that in the past and will not do it again unless provoked. Gordo's allright IMO. I just want to be able to post a thread about whatever topic I want to, irrelevant to some or not. I have posted many threads that stayed right at zero replies. Those were irrelvant. Meanwhile this topic I post and it's now up to 4 pages, three of which are devoted to people telling me how irrelevant it is while mysteriously continuing to post on the irrelevant thread, and the 4th devoted to the 11,716th WMD's posts. That's not right. Hence the letter put on this thread.
there's no saving people from themselves.. the fact is? iraq is about ready to meltdown, and your boy Dubya is the reason...."
Keep believing liberal media, and you're right, you can't be saved. I know you would prefer Saddam kept killing them because you think deep down, "They're only Arabs." They're only Muslims." Face it you have racism and religio-phobia bad. The cure is faith.
Since we know that religion is based in truth there is no need to quit the way I had victory over tobacco. But you fear religion, secretly you hate religion. It's the cognitive dissonance thing, I understand. Easier to say the truth doesn't exist than to accept the truth calls you to change. Hey I been there. We all have, we all still struggle. But God does walk with us and watch over us even when we reject God.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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No one here "hijacked anything belonging to you, but you and that dweeb clone are trying to hijack this whole forum.
Seems to me that I see you injecting yourself and your opinions (that quite often are at best radical and even more often directed as insults at others not of your religious persuasion) into threads on topics you can't seem to even understand and you feel no qualms about that. (Actually, that isn't so bad, since almost every thread here wanders away from anthing that was it's beginning.)
Since when are the threads here "owned"? By you or anyone else?
Maybe you ought to seriously consider what those poeople are trying to get you to understand about what you post, rather than retalliating with long cut and pasted party line propaganda from the Congressional Record? (The Congressional Record is NOT a record of congress, is not edited for factual content, and it's content is anything anything any Congress Member places there even when Congress never considered or even heard of it. It is mostly an unedited and unrefereed record of political propaganda placed therein in answer to request from either the DNC or the RNC. It is certainly no bastion of truth or fact.)
As to your, "If some feel it's irrelevant don't read it. That was why that letter found it's way over here.", maybe you need to find a place to post where people don't allow their imaginations to mull the topics of discussion and post there. This place has gotten along fine with our unstructured wandering threads for a long time. Has something changed here?
I do have a query, though. In another thread you declared that Bill Clinton was trying to hide truth when he stated he would make no furthur comments about a subject. You quote Eugene Holmes Colonel, U.S.A., Ret. on that same subject and want us to believe he is a reliable source that tells all the truth with nothing hidden.
But that quote includes the following,
"I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.",
which is almost a duplicate of the one you claim proves Clinton lied and was covering up facts.
Now, logically, both men have made essentially the same statement on the same topic, so why haven't you declared Eugene Holmes to be lying and covering up the truth like you did Clinton. Or is this another of examples of something you can do but we cannot?
In my book of logic it says the same rules apply to each of us.
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"No one here "hijacked anything belonging to you, but you and that dweeb clone are trying to hijack this whole forum."
Funny Bdgee, you comment on how many different threads? You then accuse my brother and I of having a religious agenda. Now let me help you understand, my brother has no religious agenda when he discusses politics. Look at his posts and demonstrate the number of times he has argued from a religious perspective.
My brother is a Republican, I am an Independant, apolitical conscientious voter. That I choose to not vote for candidates who espouse hate rather than issues means I have not had a Democrat to vote for, but that does not make me a conservative. I have found no Democrat candidate for presidency worthy of my vote since Clinton let 800,000 Rwandans die. The only Democrat I could vote for, Barak Obama, is not in a place I am eligible to vote, so that is not my fault.
You complain about my brother and I in negative, perjorative terms, where have I showed you that discourtesy? The very way in which you used the term "clone" perjoratively demonstrates why Bush's veto was the right thing to do: we simply aren't socially mature enough to deal with stem cell research and cloning. You would see such people as slaves or sub-humans, just as you see my brother and I.
"the same rules apply to each of us."
If you felt rules applied equally, then you would not see any difference in the draft dodging Clinton and Bush did. Each took their own trip around compulsory military service. You would see that Clinton lied in office and Bush has not lied. Clinton's affair in the business world would have cost him his job and possible sexual misconduct litigation. It is corporate policy and often statutory that a person with power over an employee or intern cannot engage in sexual relations with that individual. The issue of consentuality is not germaine, because the unequal power balance means you can never be sure there is actually consent of the person's own volition. They might be intimidated into the behavior. Let me offer an example:
See what Bill Clinton did was not an issue of private consensual sex, it was potentially abuse of power structure. Jill Ireland said as much when the then president of the National Organization for Women said what he did was wrong but that he could do greater good for women than Bob Dole. This is blatant hypocricy, "He did wrong but we'll give him a pass because he our friend." But we move on then to President Bush, who is so by further definition of the rule of law.
If you were even handed and not just a party spokesperson, you would see the rule of law was applied in the last two elections and you would accept the rulings. Now we live in a Republic that admits the rule of law must sometimes be amended so you should be working for that change realizing it will not change the outcome of the last election or the one prior to that.
Do we need better election processes yes, absolutely! Personally I would prefer paper ballots with a week-long "business holiday" in which to vote. I think it should be wed to campaign finance reform, 527s and PACs on both sides gotta go. But back to election reform, at the very least we should take three days with some form of measureable tracer to prevent multiple voting or dead people voting. But that is not the system at present. Until Democrats focus their attention on voting process reform instead of trying to retro-actively win a vote, nothing will get done for the future. Just like, until they stop the hate rhetoric, they will keep losing power. It's the vision, friend, not the hate that mobilizes the electorate.
And speaking of "election theft:" would you then advocate the prosecution of the Democratic interns who sabotaged Republican "get out the vote" vehicles? Would you re-open Pennsylvania? See the time has come to admit our system was troubled long before JFK stole the election in 1960. The first case of voter "booth" trouble that is on record was in the 1800 electoral college when behind the scenes caucusing gave the election to Jefferson. We don't totally scrap the system, we should admit we are fallible and work to correct problems every time we have a vote.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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"My brother is a Republican, I am an Independant, apolitical conscientious voter."
Bulls--t. If that is true, then I'm Peter Pan on Mondays and Jack the Giant Killer on Tuesdys. You are a far right wing Party line religious extremist Republican stooge.
"You complain about my brother and I in negative, perjorative terms.."
No, I simply refuse to accept the far right republican Party line BS as antything other than BS and point out it is BS. You can't handle facts and truth and react to anything not sanctioned by Fat Rush the Doper as hateful. The truth is you are so steeped in adoration of the hateful and crude attacks by such idiots and Hannity and Coulter you imaging the absense of the republican hate campaign is hateful.
Just who is your brother, by the way and why?
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Where have I spewed the hate you do Bdgee? Give me one example of intolerance on my part. On the other hand as I am an Independant I can see clearly the hate-trowelling that comes from the left wing bereft of ideas. Their old lines don't work anymore so all they have is anger. Look at the name calling on this site.
As far as the party line thing when is the last time you voted for anyone beyond the Democratic Party? And I would go on to ask: what position do Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter occupy within the administration? Which congressional office do they hold? What judicial bench do they hold? They are not a part of the Republican Party in any official capacity.
You will not find the level of lies, hate, anger and spleen coming from the Republican Party except from the attack dog vice-president. If you want to go outside the official party lines, then there is garbage on both sides, and I have said as much.
From JR:
"religion is based on truth?????...
with all your peuedo-intellectual rantings, I would of thought better of you..
you now hold zero cred. as far as I am concerned..."
Wow, I am religious so I can have no credibility, no hate there JR? Because I am religious, I can't be intellectual? Funny how the Left's hatred for religion means they can't listen to an intellectual working on a PhD who speaks 5 languages well and a host of others to communicate, studied physics, cosmology/astronomy, psychology, linguistics, Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism at that liberal bastion the University of Iowa.
See Jordan you are a good example of the way the Left inculcates close-mindedness, mean-spiritedness, intolerance, atheo-centrism, religio-phobia, ethno-centrism, racism, sexism and ageism in its adherents. Be honest, you hate religious folks, you really think we're less than fully human. You demonstrate why we can't have Democrats in the High Office anymore. They hate religious people.
"did you have a hard time "kicking" skoal?.. cry me a river..that aint sh%t..."
Given that 450,000 people DIE of tobacco related illnesses each year, AND our taxes pay for a huge amount of those medical and disability bills while our insurance rates also go up because of tobacco-related illnesses and addictive therapies, your insensitivity is absolutely absurd.
As to my agenda, I will absorb abuse, as Our Risen Lord and Savior did, and I will post on this site for a long time to come. I notice you all flee when I start posting and wait until I seem to be gone, my hope would be that you can muster the courage to acually respond to arguments not bash my person. Nevertheless, I will be here, challenging the greed and hatred, loving my neighbor and just seeking to exercise my right to be heard. I hope you do the same.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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Bdgee- If the rules of this board are that we can post about any topic on any body's thread at anytime than I apologize. Maybe I was thinking this was like the stock site where people don't like talking about other people's stocks.
Since I now am familiar with the new rules, please provide credible links or sources on President Clinton's Vietnam actions to support your claims that he was open and honest about this situation and how he has the high ground over Bush about his Vietnam actions. You won't do this because there are none. Now how the all powerful Republican's managed to go back to 1992 and erase all positive articles about Clinton's Vietnam actions is beyond me, but I'll let you work that out in your own mind.
The difference Bdgee is that Holmes addressed the issue than said he will make no other statements. Clinton, the one running for public office, the one who is compelled to answer the questions, said "Almost eveybody's dead I have no more comments to make."
But I will play your game Bdgee. For both of our sake, and so that we may be able to see a little more eye to eye, and so that you can stop your incessent republican party line rage. Please provide a list of sources that you will accept as untianted by the republicans.
Jordan- I think you will find that my brother will be around for quite some time.
posted
Wow, I am religious so I can have no credibility, no hate there JR? Because I am religious, I can't be intellectual? Funny how the Left's hatred for religion means they can't listen to an intellectual working on a PhD who speaks 5 languages well and a host of others to communicate, studied physics, cosmology/astronomy, psychology, linguistics, Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism at that liberal bastion the University of Iowa
i've known lots of folks like you...
professional students....
how bad is the student loan bill?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Take careful note: The Congressional Record is not a source of fact or truth!
Any member of Congress and many aides may, without any question, refereeing, or review enter just about anything into the Congressional Record. As a result, The Congressional Record is full of political and biased points of view, many placed there at the behest of either the DNC or the RNC.
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Glassman- That's one point I can't argue with you. They do put you through some schoolin' before you can become a minister. What is it Griff that you had to do? something like 4 years for B of S 2 years for masters 3 years "residency" 2 years for PHD 2 years probationary, underling. Now some of this is overlapping but it is a load of schoolin'.
posted
I actually had worked on four BA degrees (Physics, linguistics, Psychology and Religious Studies) in about 12 years (wasn't attending all the time) 5 years of MDiv (part time while I served 4 churches 3 years probationary/residency 4-6 years PhD (which I am just formally beginning)
My student loan bill is $49,500 to begin, in one year I have knocked it down to $37,000. I was not so much a professional student as I was a career wanderer, not knowing exactly what was in my heart. I am pretty much middle of the road and open-minded with an interest in a whole lot of areas.
-------------------- God's peace be with you A salaam a lakum Shalom Chevarim
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